New Labour Leader

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

14 minutes ago, Jools said:

I'm Looking at the areas that still vote Labour and it's high time the latter changed their name to something along the lines of the ‘Welfare & Entitlement Party’...

It'd be much more apt.
 

The Metropolitans and larger Provincials still vote Labour. Its the remainder that vote Tory.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

SKS has to go but at the moment its very hard to see who will emerge to challenge. Also, it has to be admitted that the PArty is in its usual conflict. Those of us on the left are being diluted by the pseudo Tories on the right.

If we have to languish for a few years, maybe longer, then so be it. But we have to get it sorted once and for all. We have to accept what Labour still should stand for. Not Yes, Prime Minister lackies like SKS.

[Jools 584]

I dedicate the following number to Sir Kneel-alot and the Labour Crime Party:

😉

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

33 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

SKS has to go but at the moment its very hard to see who will emerge to challenge. Also, it has to be admitted that the PArty is in its usual conflict. Those of us on the left are being diluted by the pseudo Tories on the right.

If we have to languish for a few years, maybe longer, then so be it. But we have to get it sorted once and for all. We have to accept what Labour still should stand for. Not Yes, Prime Minister lackies like SKS.

If you try and drag Labour further to the left, you'll never win another election in this country ever again. The SNP has locked you out of Scotland and without appealing to the centre voters in England, you simply can't win. It's maths.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

If you try and drag Labour further to the left, you'll never win another election in this country ever again. The SNP has locked you out of Scotland and without appealing to the centre voters in England, you simply can't win. It's maths.

It appears that only matters to you. If I have to change to the Green Party to find one that matches my views then so be it. And they will never be a Government but at least would represent my vote. I assume you vote for whoever suits you at the time. Fair enough.

I live in Cornwall which is a sea of Blue so I am not being represented anyway.

I vote Independent in the local elections because I want someone who will do my bidding without having to ask Head Office.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

It appears that only matters to you. If I have to change to the Green Party to find one that matches my views then so be it. And they will never be a Government but at least would represent my vote. I assume you vote for whoever suits you at the time. Fair enough.

I live in Cornwall which is a sea of Blue so I am not being represented anyway.

I vote Independent in the local elections because I want someone who will do my bidding without having to ask Head Office.

Fair enough, I commend you for your moral stance.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

50 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Fair enough, I commend you for your moral stance.

Thank You. I don't blame anyone for voting for who they want in power. But I cannot accept the moral judgements that plagued Corbyn while Johnson gets away, literally during the pandemic, with blue murder.

[Jools 584]

🙃

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

18 minutes ago, Jools said:

🙃

How is Reform doing Jools? Not another Nigel money maker down the swanee?

[Jools 584]

Labour already has a new campaign poster for the next GE:

🙃

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 minutes ago, Jools said:

Labour already has a new campaign poster for the next GE:

🙃

How is Reform doing Jools? Why are you now Tory again? Are you really a Manchester United supporter?

So many questions for Emily Maitliss to consider on Newsnight.

[Bonzo 198]

A new leader won't help Labour. 

Sir Keir, is a decent enough person however he does have a near impossible job on his hands- that of reconciling the views of a

1. Metropolitan middle class socialist elite - the continuation remainers +

2. The extremist left wings of his party 

to 

3. The values and beliefs of working class voters. 

There is almost nothing on which these three groups agree.

Indeed just holding the first two together is usually enough for a Labour leader. 

Add to this the seemingly permanent loss of Labour's former Scottish seats to the mix and Sir Keir's job is almost a hopeless one.

Under the circumstances it is a logical position to rely on an absence of policy and a continuation of the ad hominem attacks on his political opponents choice of soft furnishings as the basis for present Labour leader's electoral strategy going forwards. There is always the hope that something might turn up before the next General Election and at least the BBC are on side. 

The working classes are the real problem for Labour.

They simply wont do what their superiors at Labour HQ or the BBC want them to do. 

A bye election is usually when voters register a protest vote against whoever is in power - this makes the loss of Hartlepool an even greater tragedy for Labour than has been reported. 

"Peoples vote" anyone? 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

It appears that only matters to you. If I have to change to the Green Party to find one that matches my views then so be it. And they will never be a Government but at least would represent my vote. I assume you vote for whoever suits you at the time. Fair enough.

I live in Cornwall which is a sea of Blue so I am not being represented anyway.

I vote Independent in the local elections because I want someone who will do my bidding without having to ask Head Office.

I think that nicely sums up just how rotten and dysfunctional our electoral system is - the situation that you are describing is one that a very large proportion of the voters in this country find themselves in. I would say that pretty much all my life I have voted for the 'least worst' option in the hope that they (and 'they' has varied a bit over time) would prevail over the worst option.

It is only in the last decade, i.e. after four or five decades of voting for the least worst option, that I decided that I'd had enough of that because, whilst fortunately I do not live in a sea of blue, much like you it has meant that my views have sometimes been partially represented but mostly not all.

So now I vote Green knowing that we are not going to win this time (or probably next time in my area) but at least I'm voting for something that I believe in rather than the liars and incompetents of the Tory party or the policy vacuum that is the current Labour party. I'm clearly in a small minority but it totally baffles me, even allowing for the binary bias built into our useless system, why 80-90% continue to vote for one of the two 'main' parties both of which are manifestly unfit to govern the country on many levels and one (the winning one!) is also deeply mired in corruption and led by a serial liar.

 So if there is any hope at all (and frankly as far as England specifically is concerned I'd say not), then hopefully people are starting to see sense and will get equally fed up with our dismal two party governance until a tipping point is reached - it has certainly happened elsewhere but off-hand I can't think of an example where it has happened with a FPTP system.

[sonyc 5,520]

Marina Hyde as ever has given me a good laugh (this time at Starmer's expense). Copying here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/07/humiliation-hartlepool-smalltown-detective-di-starmer?

 

@Creative Midfielder I have been in the same boat, the least worst option. My whole life. But the Greens have been consistent and stand for something. Not perfect but far more principle than most left of centre parties.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

35 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Marina Hyde as ever has given me a good laugh (this time at Starmer's expense). Copying here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/07/humiliation-hartlepool-smalltown-detective-di-starmer?

 

@Creative Midfielder I have been in the same boat, the least worst option. My whole life. But the Greens have been consistent and stand for something. Not perfect but far more principle than most left of centre parties.

Until we can get to CLP meetings, we cannot explain to the Party hierarchy how we feel. And there are many layers protecting candidates, parliamentarians etc.

Maybe Green is going to have to be my future. I do what I can in the area of planet survival (still only playacting in reality) but its more the left political views that now suit me. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by keelansgrandad

[sonyc 5,520]

37 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Until we can get to CLP meetings, we cannot explain to the Party hierarchy how we feel. And there are many layers protecting candidates, parliamentarians etc.

Maybe Green is going to have to be my future. I do what I can in the area of planet survival (still only playacting in reality) but its more the left political views that now suit me. 

Well if it makes you feel any better KG I was somewhat impressed by a comment made by a poster on the football section...He stated in response to a jibe from an anti-left poster that he felt that people like him enjoyed broader and more fulfilling lives. The inference being because he wanted to have a positive view of human nature. That was my take anyway. It was a sharp reply but I was pleased he made the comment.

I recall from my studies long ago that one thing that determines your political outlook is how you view human nature (the source will be somewhere locked in the back of my mind, it may surface later). It struck a chord with me. If you are more mistrustful, you'll more likely be conservative. I suppose the opposite is to be more idealistic and therefore somehow less realistic. I therefore will agree (quietly to myself and reluctantly) with someone like @ricardowho will say something wise like "that's what politicians are like" or "that is human nature" because in many ways he is right. And in the back of my mind I know he is right. Yet at the same time I don't want him to be because this idealism gets in the way!...I want to believe in a better world. That belief is in your make up or you make a decision that it suits you. Doesn't bring power but it does bring an appreciation of life. There is always a value in there.

 

EDIT (21.20):

..found this article which is the closest to the point I was trying to make. This article is far better in describing the ways we consider human nature and how that relates to our politics.

 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/20/human-nature-politics-left-right?

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by sonyc

[ricardo 7,395]

40 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Well if it makes you feel any better KG I was somewhat impressed by a comment made by a poster on the football section...He stated in response to a jibe from an anti-left poster that he felt that people like him enjoyed broader and more fulfilling lives. The inference being because he wanted to have a positive view of human nature. That was my take anyway. It was a sharp reply but I was pleased he made the comment.

I recall from my studies long ago that one thing that determines your political outlook is how you view human nature (the source will be somewhere locked in the back of my mind, it may surface later). It struck a chord with me. If you are more mistrustful, you'll more likely be conservative. I suppose the opposite is to be more idealistic and therefore somehow less realistic. I therefore will agree (quietly to myself and reluctantly) with someone like @ricardowho will say something wise like "that's what politicians are like" or "that is human nature" because in many ways he is right. And in the back of my mind I know he is right. Yet at the same time I don't want him to be because this idealism gets in the way!...I want to believe in a better world. That belief is in your make up or you make a decision that it suits you. Doesn't bring power but it does bring an appreciation of life. There is always a value in there.

 

EDIT (21.20):

..found this article which is the closest to the point I was trying to make. This article is far better in describing the ways we consider human nature and how that relates to our politics.

 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/20/human-nature-politics-left-right?

 

Become an idealistIc realist and your problem is solved. Allow the realist in you to understand the limits to the realms of possibility but also accept that your idealism is a potential reality.😀

 

[Herman 9,768]

Well the Welsh Labour leader, Mark Drakeford, just got a massive thumbs up from the electorate. Well done him.

[sonyc 5,520]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Become an idealistIc realist and your problem is solved. Allow the realist in you to understand the limits to the realms of possibility but also accept that your idealism is a potential reality.😀

 

One of those gritty equations that can't be solved unfortunately R 🙂 ...all a bit Schroedinger I suppose. The idealism is a reality but only if you are not looking too hard. Indeed it's best not to look at all. But you can't help it.

As stated, unsolvable☺️

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

35 minutes ago, sonyc said:

One of those gritty equations that can't be solved unfortunately R 🙂 ...all a bit Schroedinger I suppose. The idealism is a reality but only if you are not looking too hard. Indeed it's best not to look at all. But you can't help it.

As stated, unsolvable☺️

Idealism is something that does not require an end result. I would have preferred a Labour victory to a Tory one but understand that not enough people agree with me to obtain that. 

But that doesn't make me sour or unhappy if a touch bewildered.

[Herman 9,768]

An interesting opinion piece highlighting some of Labour's problems of now and the future. Demographics, the voting system and not just policy.

https://www.bigissue.com/opinion/labour-are-in-bigger-trouble-than-you-realise/

[horsefly 4,301]

9 hours ago, Herman said:

Well the Welsh Labour leader, Mark Drakeford, just got a massive thumbs up from the electorate. Well done him.

Indeed! The real big story of this election that will soon become apparent is that the union of the UK has never been more divided. Scotland has overwhelmingly voted for parties that want to leave the UK. Wales has overwhelmingly rejected the Tories, and the independence movement there increases its poll ratings daily. The case for the unification of Northern Ireland and Ireland is rapidly gaining momentum post brexit. When the vaccine bounce deflates, when the furlough holiday disappears and unemployment rockets, when the economic effects of a disastrous brexit deal become real, when the inquiries into Covid response disclose catastrophic government failures, when the inquiries into Johnson and Tory sleaze reveal the extent of corruption, the political landscape will look entirely different. 

[horsefly 4,301]

Jools view of Tory Britain:

 

[kick it off 1,952]

13 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think that nicely sums up just how rotten and dysfunctional our electoral system is - the situation that you are describing is one that a very large proportion of the voters in this country find themselves in.

Thursday was the first time in my adult life that I didn't vote. I've always been very pro-democracy and felt it important that people should always vote.

Now - What's the ****ing point? None of the parties represent my views. Tories command 60+% of the vote in my district every election, be it national or local. Politics is well and truly ****ing broken in this country, and the majority of the electorate are thick as **** and believe every word of the Murdoch et al lies. Johnson is a ****ing tinpot dictator and the electorate are too stupid to see through his carefully maintained buffoon act, Starmer is a spineless little lickspittle **** who has done less than **** all to hold Johnson to account. We have the weakest and most corrupt/incompetent bunch of **** in Westminster of my entire lifetime.

I would have voted Green on Thursday but there was literally no point voting. I know there's the old adage about if everybody who thought like that actually voted then things might change, but reality is, even if that were true, the rest still don't turn out.

[kick it off 1,952]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

When the vaccine bounce deflates, when the furlough holiday disappears and unemployment rockets, when the economic effects of a disastrous brexit deal become real, when the inquiries into Covid response disclose catastrophic government failures, when the inquiries into Johnson and Tory sleaze reveal the extent of corruption, the political landscape will look entirely different. 

And yet still there will be a majority of the electorate that are thick as mince and will still keep the Tories in power.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

22 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Thursday was the first time in my adult life that I didn't vote. I've always been very pro-democracy and felt it important that people should always vote.

Now - What's the ****ing point? None of the parties represent my views. Tories command 60+% of the vote in my district every election, be it national or local. Politics is well and truly ****ing broken in this country, and the majority of the electorate are thick as **** and believe every word of the Murdoch et al lies. Johnson is a ****ing tinpot dictator and the electorate are too stupid to see through his carefully maintained buffoon act, Starmer is a spineless little lickspittle **** who has done less than **** all to hold Johnson to account. We have the weakest and most corrupt/incompetent bunch of **** in Westminster of my entire lifetime.

I would have voted Green on Thursday but there was literally no point voting. I know there's the old adage about if everybody who thought like that actually voted then things might change, but reality is, even if that were true, the rest still don't turn out.

Whilst I entirely understand your frustration, the problem with that stance is that it means nothing will ever change.

Sadly as I said originally, as far as England is concerned I think that is exactly the case, our slide into insignificance or at least into a historically themed holiday island for the Yanks and the Chinese is going to continue apace.

Good news for Scotland though, where interestingly it will be Green MSPs playing a crucial role - their escape route from the UK is definitely starting to open up. Next year will be Northern Ireland's chance and I would say they are firm favourites to go for it also.

[Well b back 3,208]

I would have voted Green on Thursday but there was literally no point voting. I know there's the old adage about if everybody who thought like that actually voted then things might change, but reality is, even if that were true, the rest still don't turn out.

After 42 years of voting Tory I ( and others in my family ) voted Green. I appreciated they would not win, but I needed to do it.

 

 

[sonyc 5,520]

Lots of new green votes on this forum which is good to see  (have run out of likes) and I think that is because many posters here have very thoughtful and considered views on politics and society overall. Simple Tory and Labour no longer feel like a home perhaps (or if they ever did?). I'm guessing with the centre / left of centre parties being quite split by the FPTP system, there is this deficit and even powerlessness. Many times I've voted I've reflected that the green candidate was very plausible but had no chance of getting in so voted for the next 'best'. Other times I have gone with my principles. Seems I'm not the only one.

I found the Sheffield story interesting (given the long running trees issue in the city) and the Greens have made big gains. These kind of gains have been quite a recent phenomena haven't they? 10 years ago the greens were less prevalent. So maybe there is change. Likewise the Lib Dems are strengthening. On TV yesterday the labour candidate stated, after being asked what the party would do next in Sheffield, that they would "sit down, quietly and calmly and decide what to do next". No such consideration as to ask the public what they needed to do! I thought it was also good to see (despite my allegiances) that some local Conservative councillors had done well because of their active campaigns and previous hard work in constituencies. I think that is more positive because it means hard work has been recognised and rewarded. It is local democracy working.

I can only see a broad coalition between a few of the opposition parties being the main way of getting back to the table of UK politics  (and as that famous quote goes..."if you're not at the table , you're on the menu" ).

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

I would have voted Green on Thursday but there was literally no point voting. I know there's the old adage about if everybody who thought like that actually voted then things might change, but reality is, even if that were true, the rest still don't turn out.

After 42 years of voting Tory I ( and others in my family ) voted Green. I appreciated they would not win, but I needed to do it.

 

 

I voted green too, as I did in GE in 2019, I found the whole experience to be very cleansing 😉 he got 234 votes. 

Was a very close run thing here with the Lib Dem winning over the Tory by 21 votes.

 

[Yellow Fever 3,791]

I would suggest everyone chill out. I certainly didn't know which way to vote - 

Saw this on the BBC - 

Crunching the numbers: What does the data tell us?

Professor Sir John Curtice

Polling expert

This gives us something known as the projected national share.

It gives us an estimate of the share of the vote the parties may have won in a nationwide general election - if voters had behaved in the same way as those who actually voted in the local elections.

So on the basis of those 1,000 key wards, the BBC projects that if a general election was taking place, the parties would have the following percentage shares:

• Conservative 36
• Labour 29
• Lib Dem 17
• Other 18

The projected Conservative lead of 7 points is similar to the average Conservative lead of 6 points in the most recent Britain-wide polls.

The election results thus appear to confirm the apparent vaccine boost to the Conservatives' popularity.

But in contrast to the result in Hartlepool, there is a projected nationwide net swing from the Conservatives to Labour of 2.5 points from the 2019 general election. Hartlepool's by-election saw a 16% swing the other way.

Labour have made at least some progress in this election, albeit far less than what one might expect from an opposition in the middle of a government's term.

The Liberal Democrat projected share is two points lower than the party's performance in the last local elections in 2019 and only slightly better than that registered in 2016 and 2018.

The party still seems to be doing little more than treading water, even if it is still stronger in local elections than it is for Westminster.