New Labour Leader

[ricardo 7,395]

9 minutes ago, Jools said:

 

😮 Christ alive, if the current Labour Party isn't Left enough for her, who exactly is she going to vote for in the future?

She's  one of those idiots that think people are voting Tory because Labour isn't  left enough. Hilarious🤣

[Jools 584]

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

She's  one of those idiots that think people are voting Tory because Labour isn't  left enough. Hilarious🤣

My only explanation is that loons like her enjoy the permanent struggle, because they'll never form a government..

That and they love to play the victim.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Labour party - rich, middle-class people telling poor people they are thick and don't know what they're voting for. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Labour party - rich, middle-class people telling poor people they are thick and don't know what they're voting for. 

You are right. The middle class idiots with a conscience should form their own party. We will not get the Red Wall back until we get back to proper Labour left wing ideas.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

We will not get the Red Wall back until we get back to proper Labour left wing ideas.

You may well be right about that but the trouble is what I suspect you mean by 'proper Labour left wing ideas' are a good 30 (and probably 50) years out of date and simply won't fly any more.

In any case even if Labour does succeed, by whatever means, in winning the Red Wall back it still leaves them a long, long way short of forming a government.

Seems to me that this obession with the Red Wall is just another indiction of just how backwards looking both the Labour and Tory parties are which may go some way to explaining why we have had to endure 10-15 years now of totally inept government.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

Is Starmer standing in Norfolk? NO, but voting Labour locally will save us a load of money and destruction of our drinking water catchment area for Norwich, save the maternity roosts of Barbastelle bats, not to speak of the villages along the route who voices were not heard. The green Party has also pledged to not build this link, obviously....

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

14 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

You may well be right about that but the trouble is what I suspect you mean by 'proper Labour left wing ideas' are a good 30 (and probably 50) years out of date and simply won't fly any more.

In any case even if Labour does succeed, by whatever means, in winning the Red Wall back it still leaves them a long, long way short of forming a government.

Seems to me that this obession with the Red Wall is just another indiction of just how backwards looking both the Labour and Tory parties are which may go some way to explaining why we have had to endure 10-15 years now of totally inept government.

Why is returning vital industries and services to public control a backward step?

Thatcher said privatisation was needed because public ownership made things less efficient and uneconomic.

I think the last 35 years of inefficiency and belief that shareholders are more important than consumers has done enough to quash that theory.

[king canary 7,609]

18 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

You may well be right about that but the trouble is what I suspect you mean by 'proper Labour left wing ideas' are a good 30 (and probably 50) years out of date and simply won't fly any more.

In any case even if Labour does succeed, by whatever means, in winning the Red Wall back it still leaves them a long, long way short of forming a government.

Seems to me that this obession with the Red Wall is just another indiction of just how backwards looking both the Labour and Tory parties are which may go some way to explaining why we have had to endure 10-15 years now of totally inept government.

The Red Wall fascination is a symptom of FPTP as much as anything- no point running up the numbers in London and other cities when that doesn't give you anymore seats.

But I do agree 'proper Labour left wing ideas' have changed hugely over the years. Right now Labour has no real answer that can please both the younger, metropolitan cohort who see themselves as internationalists and part of something bigger than just the UK and the older, more traditional working class voters so negatively affected by globalization and the deindustrialization of those heartlands.  

[Herman 9,779]

I think we all know that we will never have a proper left-wing government in this country because of who runs the media and controls the narrative. Blairism is as close as we'll get. 

[Jools 584]

48 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think we all know that we will never have a proper left-wing government in this country because of who runs the media and controls the narrative.

[king canary 7,609]

12 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think we all know that we will never have a proper left-wing government in this country because of who runs the media and controls the narrative. Blairism is as close as we'll get. 

This sort of thing really bugs. The media don't help but this sort of claim has two issues-

1- It is basically saying the general public are mostly idiots who can't see through the media lies, while you are smarter than them and can

2- It assumes left wing ideas would be much more popular without the media than I believe they actually would be

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

This sort of thing really bugs. The media don't help but this sort of claim has two issues-

1- It is basically saying the general public are mostly idiots who can't see through the media lies, while you are smarter than them and can

2- It assumes left wing ideas would be much more popular without the media than I believe they actually would be

I wonder if the left wing posters on this forum understand objectively how they come across. There are so many centre voters who voted Labour under Blair for years and yet so many on here totally fail to understand that if they ever want to win an election they need to bring people over with aspiration, a solid financial plan and a vision, instead they spend their time implying we're all idiots and crying about how the nasty media isn't giving them a fighting chance.

[Herman 9,779]

26 minutes ago, king canary said:

This sort of thing really bugs. The media don't help but this sort of claim has two issues-

1- It is basically saying the general public are mostly idiots who can't see through the media lies, while you are smarter than them and can

2- It assumes left wing ideas would be much more popular without the media than I believe they actually would be

It's simply the truth I'm afraid. I'm not saying they're stupid either, but the vast majority of the electorate are simply not interested in the details of politics as has been proven. 

Cummings knew this and the media barons know it. Why do you think they spend millions propping up a failed industry? 

[king canary 7,609]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's simply the truth I'm afraid. I'm not saying they're stupid either, but the vast majority of the electorate are simply not interested in the details of politics as has been proven. 

Cummings knew this and the media barons know it. Why do you think they spend millions propping up a failed industry? 

Not for me- I agree the media don't help but if you removed them all I don't think the country suddenly becomes socialist. 

[Van wink 2,994]

2 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I wonder if the left wing posters on this forum understand objectively how they come across. There are so many centre voters who voted Labour under Blair for years and yet so many on here totally fail to understand that if they ever want to win an election they need to bring people over with aspiration, a solid financial plan and a vision, instead they spend their time implying we're all idiots and crying about how the nasty media isn't giving them a fighting chance.

That’s far too sensible 😉

Edited May 5, 2021 by Van wink

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Why is returning vital industries and services to public control a backward step?

Thatcher said privatisation was needed because public ownership made things less efficient and uneconomic.

I think the last 35 years of inefficiency and belief that shareholders are more important than consumers has done enough to quash that theory.

I would completely agree that most of Thatcher's privatisations have been a disaster and her belief that the market will always perform better, still followed blindly and equally disastrously by recent Tory governments, has been thoroughly discredited. As far as our public services are concerned it was always misguided, in fact that it is far too kind - it was always a stupid idea born out of a misguided belief and implemented without any real thought or analysis of involving the market would improve the efficiency, quality and availability of the public services.

Even some of the 'vital industries' which arguably should have been in the private rather than the public sector, or perhaps better still some private/public partnerships, were dealt with in an extremely ham-fisted way and as with so many of the Tory's policies over the years they ended up making a very small number of people rich (or even richer) and the rest of the country worse off.

So no argument from me about getting public services back into some form of public ownership but that can't consist of returning things back to the nationalisation of the 1970s. We need a model of public ownership that would work in the 21st century and I don't the Labour Party has one, or if it has it isn't able the clearly articulate the benefits - which frankly given the success of the NHS in tackling the pandemic generally and the vaccine roll-out specifically in contrast to the ruinously expensive complete failure of the private sector test, track and trace system should be the easiest case to make for public ownership ever.

Maybe I'm wrong but IMO, as I said earlier, the Labour and Tory party are both 20th century dinosaurs which should have already evolved or gone extinct but somehow (unfortunately) have actually been preserved by our dysfunctional FPTP system and are still there running the show even though neither of them have scooby about what is required to address the issues of 2021 and beyond.

[Herman 9,779]

16 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not for me- I agree the media don't help but if you removed them all I don't think the country suddenly becomes socialist. 

That's not what I am suggesting. It might become more balanced and willing to listen to left-ish ideas. Look at the way they portrayed and destroyed Miliband, as some sort of headbanging Marxist, rather than some left of centre politician with some good and bad policies.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

55 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I wonder if the left wing posters on this forum understand objectively how they come across. There are so many centre voters who voted Labour under Blair for years and yet so many on here totally fail to understand that if they ever want to win an election they need to bring people over with aspiration, a solid financial plan and a vision, instead they spend their time implying we're all idiots and crying about how the nasty media isn't giving them a fighting chance.

😂 Are you having a laugh?

You think that is what won Johnson an 80 seat majority at the last election???

If so, maybe you can enlighten us as to what his solid financial plan was for a start???

[Herman 9,779]

Happy Birthday to Karl Marx by the way.😉

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Happy Birthday to Karl Marx by the way.😉

Who, incidentally, was born in Trier and not - as some people seem to think due to it being named Karl-Marx-Stadt during the days of the old East Germany, Chemnitz.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I wonder if the left wing posters on this forum understand objectively how they come across. There are so many centre voters who voted Labour under Blair for years and yet so many on here totally fail to understand that if they ever want to win an election they need to bring people over with aspiration, a solid financial plan and a vision, instead they spend their time implying we're all idiots and crying about how the nasty media isn't giving them a fighting chance.

That is the most basic of arguments on this thread.

Why are you implying we have to become lying pseudo Tories like Blair. I would rather have a Tory than one who pretends to be anything like socialist. Winning the election is important but not by making concessions to what we stand for.

I would rather have a thief than a liar.

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

It's simply the truth I'm afraid.

 

2 hours ago, king canary said:

This sort of thing really bugs. The media don't help but this sort of claim has two issues-

It bugs me and defies belief that people think mainstream media such as the BBC/SKY/Channel 4 and social media platforms like Facebook & Twitter control the narrative from a conservative/RW point of view...

There's a reason why all the above are losing revenue and it's because they're losing conservative/RW custom through censorship.

The Lefty bias of the MSM and social media platforms is an absolute given, ffs!

There's uncontacted tribes on the Larkman that know the MSM is Lefty bias. 🙃

Edited May 5, 2021 by Jools

[ricardo 7,395]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Happy Birthday to Karl Marx by the way.😉

He must be knocking on a bit now.😉

[sonyc 5,526]

2 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I wonder if the left wing posters on this forum understand objectively how they come across. There are so many centre voters who voted Labour under Blair for years and yet so many on here totally fail to understand that if they ever want to win an election they need to bring people over with aspiration, a solid financial plan and a vision, instead they spend their time implying we're all idiots and crying about how the nasty media isn't giving them a fighting chance.

I see what you're saying ...but in stating this and the way you've said it, are you not also saying that people who think differently to you are also idiots? Greenhouses and stones and all that?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

29 minutes ago, ricardo said:

He must be knocking on a bit now.😉

He keeps active by spinning in his grave

[sonyc 5,526]

2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Maybe I'm wrong but IMO, as I said earlier, the Labour and Tory party are both 20th century dinosaurs which should have already evolved or gone extinct but somehow (unfortunately) have actually been preserved by our dysfunctional FPTP system and are still there running the show even though neither of them have scooby about what is required to address the issues of 2021 and beyond.

I think you've made an interesting point. I'm unimpressed with the current regime of course and don't see any serious long term vision apart from the vaguest idea of 'levelling up' and extra police and nurses. The style is so often sound bite not strategy. And the Labour Party do not appear to be able to unite the disparate parts of its usual support base. Lots of debate here too critical of them and well deserved. The Liberals (nationally, not locally) are slowly recovering but have been knocked so badly as to be almost irrelevant since Clegg and Swinson especially. The Greens, (to me) have always seemed to have a clear idea of what they stand for and are progressive and yet they are very much a minority party under FPTP.  So, we have a set up which will just keep trundling on and with the 'left' fractured, will probably survive for years until people really get fed up. Somehow, the terms  'left' & 'right 'are very simplistic aren't they as much as your idea of dinosaur parties. Perhaps the pandemic has taken everyone's minds off political strategy and visions? It would be understandable. Perhaps though, if and hopefully, when, we get through it, there will be some fresh ideas emerging and these can be articulated by one party or more likely a coalition.

In the meantime I tend to simply 'think local' and try and support the people who do things in the community (don't care who they belong to, Tory, Liberal, Green or Labour). We can always do something like volunteer, or work locally and look after the needs of folk around us. I dislike people on this forum telling me I'm woke and a leftie, entitled etc as much as I don't care much for posters calling others RWNJ's. Both might be true but labelling won't change anything. All fairly pointless really. 

Going back to your point, if they are dinosaurs then they may fizzle out? Edit: Maybe not only after another ice age 🙂 ...More likely change will happen when the union splits (just reading Monibot's piece in the Guardian this evening on a separated Scotland, Wales and Ireland). So, that might be within 5 years?

Edited May 5, 2021 by sonyc

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

48 minutes ago, Jools said:

 

It bugs me and defies belief that people think mainstream media such as the BBC/SKY/Channel 4 and social media platforms like Facebook & Twitter control the narrative from a conservative/RW point of view...

There's a reason why all the above are losing revenue and it's because they're losing conservative/RW custom through censorship.

The Lefty bias of the MSM and social media platforms is an absolute given, ffs!

There's uncontacted tribes on the Larkman that know the MSM is Lefty bias. 🙃

OOOh get you. Larkmanitis. Where were you from? Heartsease Towers? Oh you are so posh. And accordingly you talk siht.

This country allows Murdoch to control the media. Where else would a single person be able to control so much. In NZ, he was banned from owning anymore than 41% of a single newspaper group.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Starmer has no answers for today's political questions. He should resign on yesterday's dismal showing

[Jools 584]

I'm Looking at the areas that still vote Labour and it's high time the latter changed their name to something along the lines of the ‘Welfare & Entitlement Party’...

It'd be much more apt.
 

[Jools 584]

On 05/05/2021 at 18:49, keelansgrandad said:

OOOh get you. Larkmanitis. Where were you from? Heartsease Towers?

Close, Grandpapa, I lived at Borrowdale Drive and went to Heartsease junior school as a kid.