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Indy

Three teams will go down, we were always going to be battling relegation.

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Posted (edited)

I’m not going to preach ala Lakey, but we didn’t spend huge sums in the summer, but those who we did go after and didn’t sign weren’t exactly enamoured with coming here. As our learning from Naismith he never wanted to come here and we had to pay way over the odds for absolutely no improvement to our squad by adding him!

We kept a very good talented set of youngsters only 8 games into their premiership experience and we’ve lost key players to injury.

Even with a full squad it was always going to be a battle to avoid going down, we’re still in that battle.

Unlike some on here the realists knew a top 10 was never going to happen and for the delude few who said anything is possible and we could finish higher than top 10, reality bites.

Time to just accept, we don’t have to like it, as ambitious people shouldn’t be satisfied but push for better, but everyone really needs to acknowledge we’re a bottom six club at best and hope we can find enough points to finish above three other teams.

Ranting about not spending won’t help now, the hope is that another Godfrey and Cantwell can step forward to take their chance, Idah & Famewo might be the next two!

Off the back of a great season last year, we’re now financially more sound, we have filled the under 23 with lots more quality for the future, our training facility is far better now and the short term future is solid, be thankful and enjoy the season.

Edited by Indy
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Completely agree. However I would say that any hopes I held of a decent (top 10) finish has been curtailed by the appalling injury situation.

But, never forget, football really is a funny old game. There've been some really odd results & performances across the division this season already, & I suspect there'll be a lot more to come. A bit of luck & a few decent results could change everything.

It's going to be a test of character as much as anything - & this applies to the fans as well.

 

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6 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

It's going to be a test of character as much as anything - & this applies to the fans as well.

Spot on. Intestinal fortitude required, not getting carried away by good wins or bad defeats.

If we had lost 1-5 to City and won 3-2 on Saturday the atmosphere would be completely different. I accept Saturdays performance was poor but let’s not forget how good we have been over the last twelve months including two home games this season. Methods and personnel aren’t all of a sudden completely wrong because we’ve suffered a hiding. 

Yes the away form needs sorting but we will bounce back. Getting a few injured players back will help enormously. 

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Re. spending, I'm not going to disagree with Webber's approach, he's far more qualified and knowledgeable than me !

 

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Posted (edited)

I agree that the injury situation has made things extra difficult but I wouldn't write off a good finish at this stage.....we are only eight games in.  As for preaching, which the op mentioned, the only thing on my mind from the word go was that anything is possible and will be until any outcome has been reached at the end of the season.

People seem to like wallowing in self pity and recrimination about things when they are not going well, but what we need to do is not get down on ourselves as fans or allow the players to get down either. It is the first week in October for goodness sake and there is a long way to go - and we know we have quality in the squad and a way of playing that at it's best is capable of competing and beating the biggest clubs in the land. 

We've had an up and down kind of season so far and it is my strong opinion that things will settle down as we learn to adapt and as the players out return to full fitness and form.  Our deep thinking and brilliant head coach has proved he can get things right before and will do so again.

It was never going to be easy, so keep the faith!

 

Edited by lake district canary

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oh woe is us

we must accept our 'ever so umble' place in life

or perhaps, we have a squad of players who have not played at this level and a manager and coaching set up likewise

however they have shown over the past couple of years that they can not only learn but develop

this isn't a failing squad where defeat seems to be the accepted format either

we will continue to battle and continue to learn, so for those who watch the games rather than simply look at the results take heart is my suggestion

at the moment we might not be as good a some first expected, but we are nowhere near as bad as some on here would have.... or wish

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17 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Completely agree. However I would say that any hopes I held of a decent (top 10) finish has been curtailed by the appalling injury situation.

But, never forget, football really is a funny old game. There've been some really odd results & performances across the division this season already, & I suspect there'll be a lot more to come. A bit of luck & a few decent results could change everything.

It's going to be a test of character as much as anything - & this applies to the fans as well.

 

We were never going to finish in the top ten. Those who thought we would were in cloud cuckoo land. Just look at the teams we are up against as “rivals” and that should be evident. 

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15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

We were never going to finish in the top ten. Those who thought we would were in cloud cuckoo land. Just look at the teams we are up against as “rivals” and that should be evident. 

And Leicester didn't win the Premiership in 2016. That was never going to happen.

 

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

And Leicester didn't win the Premiership in 2016. That was never going to happen.

 

Leicester owned by a billionaire did indeed win the premier league, helped in no small part by all the top sides having their worst seasons in living memory.

I just think people we getting well ahead of themselves talking about top ten finishes when week in week out I am told "palace are a good side we shouldn't expect to beat them" or ditto with Burnley or no doubt next week Bournemouth. It was pretty obvious when you looked at the league this year that it was a struggle to pick out the 3 sides we would definitely finish above. Its a strong league this year in terms of the strength of the teams outside the "big 6". There is no one obvious relegation fodder team.  Which is not to say that I don't accept that we still cannot finish above a few and survive if the injuries clear up a bit. We are far from out of it yet but we are going to have to pull out some more unexpected results. 

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Leicester, who were 5,000 to 1 at the bookies to win the league & had narrowly avoided relegation (bottom at Christmas) the previous season. With a non- league striker & an ageing defence.

Norwich, one of the poorest Championship teams, with a lousy start to the season, free transfers, youth players & foreign unknowns managed to win the title last year. Surely, by your reasoning, that's impossible?

It is unreasonable to say that we would finish in the top ten. It is also unreasonable to say it was impossible for us to finish in the top ten. I think most of us were hoping - not expecting, hoping - for survival, especially now.

But nobody, me, you, Farke, Klopp, nobody knows how this season will pan out. Otherwise they'd be no point to football, no point to us playing teams like Man City.

I have no problem with people giving their opinions about our likely prospects, but saying this or that outcome is ''never going to happen' I get annoyed. Football, like life, is often unpredictable & it is sheer arrogance to think otherwise.

 

 

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There was a definite arrogance/confidence (depending on your view) on here over the summer- quite a few of our fans predicting our style of football and the players we had would guarantee a smooth transition to the Premier League and keep us easily clear of relegation. 

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This is a year to repair the damage that was done last time we pent to try and stay up. It has taken three years to clear the very expensive deadwood (and aging players) off the wage bill and as a result the 'riches' received on promotion have not been available to invest in this year's squad. This is just a fat of life and gnashing of teeth and wailing about it doesn't change that. 

This year was always going to be a struggle and any future year will be a struggle for any team looking to stay in this division without a billionaire owner but I would rather accept that reality and enjoy the highs and lows than complain and moan about it.

If we go down we are well stocked to come back but we are also stable enough to operate at Championship level without the risk of going the same way as Bolton or Portsmouth or the many other clubs that have been crippled by overspending.

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I treat staying up this season as an absolutely massive bonus. 

If we don't we're in a great position to challenge again to come back up.

I still think we stand a very good chance of staying up but the injuries have made it a little more difficult this early in the season. However, our points tally isn't much different to what I thought we'd have at this stage of the season, they've just not necessarily come from the fixtures I thought they would!

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2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I treat staying up this season as an absolutely massive bonus. 

If we don't we're in a great position to challenge again to come back up.

I still think we stand a very good chance of staying up but the injuries have made it a little more difficult this early in the season. However, our points tally isn't much different to what I thought we'd have at this stage of the season, they've just not necessarily come from the fixtures I thought they would!

That is how I'm trying to look at this season too- if we stay up amazing, if we don't we're still going to be in the healthiest financial position we've had for years and should be able to cherry-pick players for another promotion push.

The only concern with that approach is how many players do we likely lose if we go down- Aarons, Lewis, Godfrey, Pukki, more?

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

That is how I'm trying to look at this season too- if we stay up amazing, if we don't we're still going to be in the healthiest financial position we've had for years and should be able to cherry-pick players for another promotion push.

The only concern with that approach is how many players do we likely lose if we go down- Aarons, Lewis, Godfrey, Pukki, more?

You'd assume we'd lose a couple but I don't think we'd lose many - if we go down I doubt all those players would have proven themselves as good premier league players over the course of the season. Pukki will be near 30, I think Aarons still has some way to go. I guess Lewis and Godfrey would be the most likely candidates.

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Of course, if we end up going down with a whimper, and with a hugely porous defence, some of the values that people were placing on our youngsters may end up being revised sharply downwards... Or indeed, may result in them not being particularly sought after.

(Before anyone jumps on me for this comment, I'm not running down the team or suggesting this will be the case. One way or the other I think it's far too early to start predicting the consequences of what may or may not transpire...)

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

You'd assume we'd lose a couple but I don't think we'd lose many - if we go down I doubt all those players would have proven themselves as good premier league players over the course of the season. Pukki will be near 30, I think Aarons still has some way to go. I guess Lewis and Godfrey would be the most likely candidates.

I'd expect Aarons to go for sure along with Godfrey. Pukki I agree may be held onto. Lewis has at times flown under the radar compared to others but has stepped up well this season. 

Buendia hasn't made the step up so we might be able to hold on to him which I wouldn't have expected early on. 

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Posted (edited)

The injuries have been devastating. Yet we have lost two at home and won two. Just imagine a couple more wins in our next four games and November will look much brighter. It is not impossible. Think folk are giving in to the idea of relegation far too soon. Farke won't be, nor will our group of players. Where we are at the end of November is likely to indicate the most likely trajectory for us into the second half of the season. If we are out of the bottom 3 or 4 by 30th November my confidence will be re- confirmed.

Edited by sonyc

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1 hour ago, Jack Barak said:

This is a year to repair the damage that was done last time we pent to try and stay up. It has taken three years to clear the very expensive deadwood (and aging players) off the wage bill and as a result the 'riches' received on promotion have not been available to invest in this year's squad. This is just a fat of life and gnashing of teeth and wailing about it doesn't change that. 

This year was always going to be a struggle and any future year will be a struggle for any team looking to stay in this division without a billionaire owner but I would rather accept that reality and enjoy the highs and lows than complain and moan about it.

If we go down we are well stocked to come back but we are also stable enough to operate at Championship level without the risk of going the same way as Bolton or Portsmouth or the many other clubs that have been crippled by overspending.

Its a bit misleading though to say that the "expensive deadwood" was all due to us being in the premier league. The fact is we made two poor signings last time we were up in Jarvis and Naismith. Signing up Jarvis on a permanent , long term deal whilst injured was just idiotic in anyone's book. As was agreeing to the contract we did for Naismith which actually played in a position where we had Wes and wasn't really a priority. I think Naismith and Jarvis were more signs of McNally losing the plot at the time than precedents for never spending decent money on premier league signings ever again which seems to have become the mantra for many who advocate not attempting to stay in the premier league.

Other than that Klose has overall proven been a good signing for us. Maddison certainly was. We actually caused as much damage by bizarrely giving Russell Martin, Alex Neil, Jerome and various others new contracts after we got relegated and allowing Neil to sign players such as Wildshutt. Not to mention the farce that was Jez Moxey. The amount of money we p**sed up the wall paying people off for decisions made after that relegation must be staggering.

If you sign the right players in the right age brackets then in most cases they will retain their value or at least the bulk of their value even if you get relegated. Look at the type of players Bournemouth and Palace go out and sign.

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Jim - you are right, I generalised as I think what followed was foretold by the poor Premier league signings - we had no plan, threw money at the issue and just kept piling mistake on top of mistake to try and get out of it. 

 

However, I stand by the point that this year is required to fix that damage and lay the ground work for 'hopefully' a far more stable and better run future. If we sty up this year then great, if we don't we go down with either a really good squad or very sale-able assets and a solid base to add to, but this year is a bit of a punt either way. Just spending money now in the hope of staying up could undo the good work of the last two years.

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14 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I agree that the injury situation has made things extra difficult but I wouldn't write off a good finish at this stage.....we are only eight games in.  As for preaching, which the op mentioned, the only thing on my mind from the word go was that anything is possible and will be until any outcome has been reached at the end of the season.

People seem to like wallowing in self pity and recrimination about things when they are not going well, but what we need to do is not get down on ourselves as fans or allow the players to get down either. It is the first week in October for goodness sake and there is a long way to go - and we know we have quality in the squad and a way of playing that at it's best is capable of competing and beating the biggest clubs in the land. 

We've had an up and down kind of season so far and it is my strong opinion that things will settle down as we learn to adapt and as the players out return to full fitness and form.  Our deep thinking and brilliant head coach has proved he can get things right before and will do so again.

It was never going to be easy, so keep the faith!

 

Have you ruled out a 3rd place finish?

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

You'd assume we'd lose a couple but I don't think we'd lose many - if we go down I doubt all those players would have proven themselves as good premier league players over the course of the season. Pukki will be near 30, I think Aarons still has some way to go. I guess Lewis and Godfrey would be the most likely candidates.

About right. I think Aaron’s can be added to your list however as I feel the club would see that as £several million in the bank and Sam Byram already here. I would think they would feel the same with Godfrey ie ( current injuries when fit ) we have 3 good championship cb’s and the sort of money being talked about would allow us to sign a good experienced championship cb with lots to spare. My one fear on the transfer front is that come January the top 6 are usually there or thereabouts for a Champions League place and one often has an injury to their main striker ala Kane last year. This situation could open a massive bid for Pukki which at nearly 30 years old we may not be able to turn down. Lewis has absolutely already proved he is EPL ready. Emi could be seen by some as worth a punt, but the one to watch is Cantwell, who if he carries on improving could be worth more than any of them.

Dont forget as well most of our squad would have been shoe ins for most championship sides last year.

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16 hours ago, K Lo said:

Re. spending, I'm not going to disagree with Webber's approach, he's far more qualified and knowledgeable than me !

 

Pretty damn good way to build on, future isn’t just a few seasons it’s the next twenty years, structure, foundations and financial security are key.

If we go down there’s a very good chance of losing, Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis, Cantwell, who all might decide to jump ship to newly promoted or mid table premiership teams next summer, so it’s key to ensure our youth development moves forward with quality youngsters added each summer.

Its never a guaranteed promotion for relegated premier teams, it’s normal for a season or two to readjust and build again.

Webber is right the long term vision is to build an established premiership team, but you only have to look at league one to see three or four teams looking at the same long term vision, never mind championship teams. There’s only room for 20 in the top flight.

As for this season, no way should anyone write it off, we do have a great young side with bags of potential, a few strong players back into the team and we suddenly look a lot more capable.

As I said most of our squad hasn’t played Premiership so will need time to adapt, more expensive players in established sides take time to adjust, so good to look at this as a learning curve for the squad, manager and the clubs new structure.

I like the fact we’re moving away from old journeymen looking to top up pensions and building the foundations on young players.

Long may it continue!👍🍻

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

About right. I think Aaron’s can be added to your list however as I feel the club would see that as £several million in the bank and Sam Byram already here. I would think they would feel the same with Godfrey ie ( current injuries when fit ) we have 3 good championship cb’s and the sort of money being talked about would allow us to sign a good experienced championship cb with lots to spare. My one fear on the transfer front is that come January the top 6 are usually there or thereabouts for a Champions League place and one often has an injury to their main striker ala Kane last year. This situation could open a massive bid for Pukki which at nearly 30 years old we may not be able to turn down. Lewis has absolutely already proved he is EPL ready. Emi could be seen by some as worth a punt, but the one to watch is Cantwell, who if he carries on improving could be worth more than any of them.

Dont forget as well most of our squad would have been shoe ins for most championship sides last year.

And yet if we do go down and sell off some of these players for reasonable money, allowing us to sign "a good experienced championship cb" etc, I'm not quite seeing what the strategy is... Because even if we then, statistically against the odds it must be said, go straight back up again, we'll have a defence martially by said good championship cb, who presumably won't be good enough for the Prem. And if we then have a similar transfer policy on promotion once again, he will presumably be given a new contract as reward for helping to get us up and no significant upgrade will be signed (we won't be able to afford to, presumably). Resulting, we might imagine, in us coming straight back down again. I can't see much strategy in that approach...

(Before anyone takes this too literally, please don't. I'm really trying to say that I think this kind of premature what-ifness is pretty pointless. And I'm aware of the irony that I'm too engaging in it to make this point...)

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Posted (edited)

Surely  the  model is Ajax, they bring most of their Players through the youth system,  plus wise experienced  acquisitions,  such as tadic. The CF for AZ alkmaar that held man u  the other day was a  ajax player on loan,  Ajax consistently sell a couple of their  top players every year yet still  sit at the top of their ( admittedly  weak) league and regularly  qualify for European football ....sometimes they do well there too. Sure they are a bigger Club than us and attract  more sponsorship,  there again, we have prem/ championship  tv money, but the principle  remains the same,  a top academy, a uniform playing style  throughout the Club and a board that is totally focused on building all aspects of the Club.....in the long term.

I am also mildly jealous of the Cruyff Arena, some atmosphere in there with its raking ,steep stands and when the roof is closed  it's the loudest  stadium I've ever been in. 

Edited by wcorkcanary
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On 08/10/2019 at 13:31, nutty nigel said:

Benteke for £30m?

No, but I'd take him now for £10m or on loan- exactly the type of player Farke could revitalise.

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9 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

No, but I'd take him now for £10m or on loan- exactly the type of player Farke could revitalise.

Can he play centre half?

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