Looking after the ball

[lake district canary 4,823]

Ok, I've been to three matches, I've watched the rest online and seen every minute this season and the one thing that stands out for me is that we are losing away matches because we don't look after the ball enough.  Giving the ball away cheaply in your own half at PL level is almost asking for a goal to be scored against you - especially as when we are in possession, our players are looking to get into space to receive the ball, meaning opposition players are in space themselves. 

We HAVE to look after the ball better and be more patient and careful with it and it is just carelessness when the ball just tamely goes to an opposition player.  Yes, we want players to be confident and express themselves, but if in the process they just dolly the ball to the opposition, then they are not doing what is necessary. In the last two away games we have had more possession than the home team - but I would like to see a bit more patience than one or two of our players are showing - they must not get carried away with themselves and concentrate on getting the basics right. 

I think I said it in another thread, the Man City match was the perfect away kind of performance - it could be the way to play every match, home or away - defend like heroes with a great shape to your team and when you do get the ball make sure you do something with it.  The kind of halfway house kind of play we have seen our last three away matches where the team is spread out, the ball is given away cheaply and the opposition simply have to use their premier league quality to exploit the mistake is actually hard to watch.

I am no expert, but even I can see that keeping it tight at the back, be patient in possession and not committing too many players forwards and try and catch teams as they try to press us is still the way to go - it is farkeball, the kind of farkeball we used against Man City and it has not been in evidence very much away from home - so far. 

[FenwayFrank 2,716]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I am no expert,

We’d noticed 😉

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

The full backs were a lot deeper against Man City giving us more shape as a defensive unit and we then played out brilliantly (as shown in numerous reels). In the away games I’ve seen we’ve been bold and attacking and looking to dominate possession as usual but when we’ve lost the ball, the full backs have been all too often too far out of position to then get back before a meaningful chance is created.

Its a dilemma as our philosophy is to play with width from the full backs and narrow midfielders (and shows again how much we’re missing the option of Hernandez as a pacy out and out winger) and without a natural holding midfielder yesterday just added to the problem.

Villa will be an interesting game as injuries will be the same or worse (Lewis). Will Heise come in or will Aarons be moved left and (the more defensively solid imo) Byram return? Will the approach be the same?

[FenwayFrank 2,716]

3 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

will Aarons be moved left and (the more defensively solid imo) Byram return?

Hadn’t thought of that, wouldn’t be surprised if we go with that

[ec-p 117]

Harsh on Heisse.

[JF 694]

Agree with that post LDC. As well as he’s played at times this season I would say Cantwell is the main culprit of this. Yesterday in that first half he set them away with several mis placesdpoor passes. West Ham’s second goal came through his pass back straight to their player. And before the scapegoating accusations start....it’s just my observations based on what LDC has posted

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

13 minutes ago, ec-p said:

Harsh on Heisse.

Have you seen him play? He has looked way off the pace to me unfortunately - would much rather have Aarons or Byram in there.

[Making Plans 957]

Pellegrini, Dyche, and Hodgson are all Managers who know the time of day.

They have seen how we play, which is the only way we play, so they know what's coming and they know how to stop us.

In those 3 games we have been crowded out in midfield and we haven't been given the space or time to get our normal passing game going. That leads to frustration, carelessness and not looking at what we are doing.

We have been trying to force things and that has usually ended up with a misplaced pass.

 

 

[TIL 1010 5,246]

18 minutes ago, ec-p said:

Harsh on Heisse.

How have you arrived at that ?

[Aggy 944]

I think the problem LDC is that premier league teams press better, so they stop us doing exactly what you say we need to do more of. We’re not giving it away cheaply at the back because our players have just become more sloppy overnight, it’s because the opponents are better at stopping us playing out from the back.

Zac’s post is a very good one. I’d extend it further and say the Man City performance wasn’t just about the full backs, but because we were playing more compact everywhere - the midfield was very close to the defence. So with that and the full backs not going as far forward, we (a) had extra deeper men closer to the defenders to help us pass out of those tight situations and beat the press and (b) weren’t so out of position when we did lose possession.

This is why there was a long thread last weekend on how we change our style to counter the press without sacrificing the style of football. Suggestions included an extra defender or playing an out and out winger so we had an “out ball” to go more direct at times and bypass the press - or make teams less willing to press in the first place so we can’t get in behind.

My preference would be to play a 5 man defence, or Amadou as a holding midfielder who can “tuck in”, which gives us an extra man for the tight spaces to play out, an extra man in defence to cover when we lose possession and also gives the full backs slightly more licence to get high and wide for the more direct ball.

Injuries also limiting these options though currently.

 

[Aggy 944]

Will also follow that up though with saying that I didn’t think we were too bad yesterday - better than Burnley game. We had chances yesterday. I’ve said it elsewhere but if Pukki doesn’t score, we won’t win games this season. If he’s in his “usual” form yesterday and manages to get one from a half chance, it’s a completely different game.

 

Further edit: I’m not sure if I can remember this or if I’ve just imagined it, but didn’t we have a pretty high goals vs “expected goals” ratio last season? I’d be interested to see how many “expected goal” chances we created last year compared to other sides who finished top six. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Aggy

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

26 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I’d extend it further and say the Man City performance wasn’t just about the full backs, but because we were playing more compact everywhere - the midfield was very close to the defence. So with that and the full backs not going as far forward, we (a) had extra deeper men closer to the defenders to help us pass out of those tight situations and beat the press and (b) weren’t so out of position when we did lose possession.

This. Very much this.

The dilemma is, therefore, do we play like this in every game which is a change to our usual philosophy of dominating possession and dictating play, or persevere, restricted with injuries as we are and continue with the more high risk strategy that would hopefully produce more performances and results like Man City. In truth, we were slightly fortunate but exceptionally clinical against Man City. Can we be that precise in terms of expected goals equalling goals in enough games to stay up? Maybe this approach should be standard for away games whilst keeping our attacking, more risky play for home games. Newcastle were poor but we showed we can beat teams playing the way Farke wants us to, and in the Man City game, has he stumbled on the perfect way to setup and play away from home in the PL?

[king canary 8,750]

29 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

This. Very much this.

The dilemma is, therefore, do we play like this in every game which is a change to our usual philosophy of dominating possession and dictating play, or persevere, restricted with injuries as we are and continue with the more high risk strategy that would hopefully produce more performances and results like Man City. In truth, we were slightly fortunate but exceptionally clinical against Man City. Can we be that precise in terms of expected goals equalling goals in enough games to stay up? Maybe this approach should be standard for away games whilst keeping our attacking, more risky play for home games. Newcastle were poor but we showed we can beat teams playing the way Farke wants us to, and in the Man City game, has he stumbled on the perfect way to setup and play away from home in the PL?

I think you have to acknowledge the players you have and adapt to them in situations like this. Amadou looked good as a central defender against Man City because he had permission to go longer when he needed to but looks like comfortable when asked to play in our normal style in that position.

I've been calling from the start of the season for some tweaks to our system. Last season we could play the type of 'total football' where our midfielders, fullbacks and even Pukki could interchange position and create overloads all over the pitch. This season we can't do that as teams will punish us when we turn over the ball. We need our back 5 (including whoever is the DM) and the midfield 4 to play more as a unit and not all bomb forward at the first opportunity.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Have you seen him play? He has looked way off the pace to me unfortunately - would much rather have Aarons or Byram in there.

So did Byram at Crawley though, then he performed against Man City. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

35 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

So did Byram at Crawley though, then he performed against Man City. 

Heise also looked way off it during pre season as well however - something that can’t be said for Byram. Maybe you are right and he will be up a level when we see him in the first team - but my impression at this point is that Farke would sooner play one of Aarons or Byram at left back than Heise in league matches 

[Aggy 944]

45 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think you have to acknowledge the players you have and adapt to them in situations like this. Amadou looked good as a central defender against Man City because he had permission to go longer when he needed to but looks like comfortable when asked to play in our normal style in that position.

I've been calling from the start of the season for some tweaks to our system. Last season we could play the type of 'total football' where our midfielders, fullbacks and even Pukki could interchange position and create overloads all over the pitch. This season we can't do that as teams will punish us when we turn over the ball. We need our back 5 (including whoever is the DM) and the midfield 4 to play more as a unit and not all bomb forward at the first opportunity.

I don’t think the issue with Amadou has been his playing out from the back. He has defensively looked like a midfielder playing out of position in the last two games. That’s not to do with being able to play it long when he needs to, it’s to do with the compactness mentioned above. When we are more open against “weaker” opposition, it means we rely on our defenders making the right decisions - hard when you’re a midfielder being played out of position. When more compact, it takes some of the individual judgment out of the equation.

Agreed re balance and not all bombing forward though. It doesn’t need to be as ‘extreme’ as it was vs Man City but there may be a middle ground somewhere.

[Bill 1,788]

2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I am no expert, but even I can see that keeping it tight at the back, be patient in possession and not committing too many players forwards and try and catch teams as they try to press us is still the way to go - it is farkeball, the kind of farkeball we used against Man City and it has not been in evidence very much away from home - so far. 

makes you wonder why that hasn't been considered before

otherwise the rest is actually the cause of out problems

fannying about in the middle often allows the opposition to 'funnel' back and have enough defenders to cope with us "not committing too many players forwards "

odd how some can watch the game but not see what is really happening

for my tu'ppenth worth we are being 'bullied' off the ball and are up against players who are faster in their use of the ball - to combat this we are having to play the ball quicker, hence the fluffed chances and mi**** shots

that's the PL for you, not neccesarily better players but quicker (if that is not a contradiction)

[Well b back 3,603]

Wow op you go with the wind. Before the Man City game you told us we keep the ball better than Man City. You also told us playing the Farke way ( open ) we would beat everybody. We changed the system and sat that bit deeper against Man City. We went back to trying to play higher and it’s not as easy as it was in the Championship. I fully support the Farke way at home and had we had more fit players I beleive we would be playing different systems ( including 5 at the back ) away.

What will be will be this year but a few like yourself built silly expectations now you are back tracking. If we beat Villa next week their manager will be under enormous pressure simply due to the expectations. If we lose I really hope that fans don’t turn, but I am sure most of us have realistic expectations.

[lake district canary 4,823]

16 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Wow op you go with the wind. Before the Man City game you told us we keep the ball better than Man City. You also told us playing the Farke way ( open ) we would beat everybody. We changed the system and sat that bit deeper against Man City. We went back to trying to play higher and it’s not as easy as it was in the Championship. I fully support the Farke way at home and had we had more fit players I beleive we would be playing different systems ( including 5 at the back ) away.

What will be will be this year but a few like yourself built silly expectations now you are back tracking. If we beat Villa next week their manager will be under enormous pressure simply due to the expectations. If we lose I really hope that fans don’t turn, but I am sure most of us have realistic expectations.

 

Err....I have not built any silly expectations - and I have not backtrtacked.  I do not have expectations myself so how can I be building them for anyone else? I've said time and time again anything is possible - and it still is.  At this point last season we had 8 points and we finished top. We have 6 so far - and I'm not suggesting we will finish top this season, before some bright spark says that is what I am saying - but there is plenty of time to do well. 

As far as the way we play goes, I think we can still beat teams by playing our way - but we simply have to be smarter at it than we have shown so far away from home.  Imo the Man city game showed how we can do it away from home - still farkeball, but playing it smarter. I think one or two players have got a little bit ahead of themselves in the way they are trying to play and maybe forcing things too much - and need to calm down a bit and show a bit more composure. 

Oh and I did NOT say we could keep the ball better than Man City......merely that if we wanted to stop them that is what we would have to do. As it happened we didn't need to try and do that - Farke played it very cleverly - and it re-inforces my opinion that we should play more like that away from home...if we can.

[Harry53 229]

5 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

The full backs were a lot deeper against Man City giving us more shape as a defensive unit and we then played out brilliantly (as shown in numerous reels). In the away games I’ve seen we’ve been bold and attacking and looking to dominate possession as usual but when we’ve lost the ball, the full backs have been all too often too far out of position to then get back before a meaningful chance is created.

Its a dilemma as our philosophy is to play with width from the full backs and narrow midfielders (and shows again how much we’re missing the option of Hernandez as a pacy out and out winger) and without a natural holding midfielder yesterday just added to the problem.

Villa will be an interesting game as injuries will be the same or worse (Lewis). Will Heise come in or will Aarons be moved left and (the more defensively solid imo) Byram return? Will the approach be the same?

I really feel we need Mario back in asap. As yesterday stats show we are not winning the ball and we need a more creative midfield. Steipermann isn't having much effect atm so, for me, i hope Mario returns soon.

[Making Plans 957]

6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

At this point last season we had 8 points and we finished top.

Drivers who spend too much time looking in the rear view mirror will eventually crash.

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

We have played very well in two games. Ruthless in front of goal and having good possession and excellent passing securing the wins. The majority of our games have been  against teams who occupy the top half of the league. Injuries have disrupted our flow and I am not surprised at the current situation when form dips. Young players having a dip in form is part of the journey for all of us. Bring on the Villa, as a team City will bounce back and then we can relax.....for a couple of weeks in mid table.

[All the Germans 1,238]

Stick to our philosophy. Even if it means we eventually end up relegated. Does nobody remember sheer joy watching our play last season; even when we lost? I've never experienced that previously and want to cling on to it for as long as I can.

Exaggerated response I know, but do not turn this side into a defensive Hughton team.

[Bonzo 198]

We have a limited availability of fit players and a set way of playing. 

By now our players and manager must know exactly how opponents are going to play against us and it’s mostly got to be an aggressive high press -Chelsea and Burnley games both yielded results for our opponents from this tactic.

To circumvent this play our players need to make good decisions under pressure. It’s easy to say but not always easy to do. On numerous occasions we have done this but there have been blips.

I don’t think we should change our approach though. Once we get going we can score against the best sides. 

Scoring first / not conceding first is ultimately the key area we need to improve. 

Once we can do this more often we’ll get a run going. It would help a lot to have more defenders fit again but there is no reason to be too negative at this stage -Villa will be a very tough challenge. It should be an exciting game.