sgncfc

When we won the league our last game was at home to Preston which we won. The Stockport game in the play-off year was also at home. But nevertheless your point is well made - we don''t do well when our last games are away.

Didn''t think he was any better than what we already had, to be honest. Better at home than he was away, when he went awol a lot. I wouldn''t have him back, even in League One - think Drury is a better defender.

I can''t agree with Shacks coming back. He started well, very committed etc but lost his man just like old times in the last few games. As soon as he got settled again I fear we would see the same old faults return. I just don''t think he is mobile enough and he loses concentration. If I was an opposition manager I would target him in every game. Assuming the Doc and/or Stefanovic stays, we need someone young and quick to play alongside them - Spillane for me, with Smith at right back.

[quote user="kdncfc"]Get rid....Lappin isn''t strong enough to play in a league dominated by big brutish type players while Cort as big as he is simply isn''t strong enough and far to injury prone. Nelson I know nothing about but I think I remember reading somewhere that he wasn''t particularly good so get rid.[/quote] Oh, right. You read somewhere that Nelson wasn''t very good so therefore he must go. How extremely bright and intelligent of you - you can read. Wonder why so many of us think this message board is dominated by dickheads.

[quote user="shyster"]sgncfc - [quote]I have no idea if they will do well[/quote] There lies your problem.  [:P]  Dullard. [/quote] So just because I don''t agree with you I''m a dullard or a muppet or some other puerile insult. Well congratulations on your extensive vocabulary. Actually I run a decent business and employ 70 people. Obviously, I am a muppet and I am not entitled to an opinion.

[quote user="First Wizard"] [quote user="Matt Juler"]Enjoy your Saturday''s listening to Radio Norfolk... I''m sure they''ll be someone else happy to snap up your pair of Barclay tickets...[/quote] Don''t bank on that now mug! [/quote] You just don''t get it do you? I am sick of reading all this absolute nonsense on this board - dominated as it is by a few no-brains. Look up the word "support" in the dictionary. Try to understand that those of us who are true supporters really don''t care that a couple of dozen of you won''t go to any games! So what''s new? Even if we are in the Prem in 2 years you will find a reason to snipe and be negative. Most of you talk nonsense and are ill-informed. You make up stuff and then get all high and mighty about it - like you lot would have a clue how to do better. There are maybe 50 or 60 contributors to this board - what makes you think you are representative of 25,000 of us? You''re not and you know nothing. Whats more, if you don''t go to games your opinion is invalid. Just like the plonkers on Radio Norfolk who phone up to say how rubbish we were even though they haven''t been to Carrow Road since the 1970''s. Personally, I will support the Gunn/Crook/Butterworth ticket. I have no idea if they will do well, but given where we are they deserve a chance. I am gutted about relegation but then I actually go to the games. You see, I support Norwich City FC - unlike you lot.

You''re all pathetic!

I used to sell sweets at the ground from one of those really heavy trays that killed your shoulders. I had a "pitch" at the River End and used to get soaked regularly. At half time we would walk around the pitch. Only did it for the free entry to the game, but we would always miss the first 20 minutes of the second half because we were cashing up in a little office under the old Main Stand (before it burned down). They would deduct any shortages from our wages so I frequently earned almost nothing, especially when the away fans grabbed handfuls of sweets and the watching policeman just laughed. My first game was our debut in Div One - against Everton, Jimmy Bone scored the equaliser in a 1-1 draw. (I think...!)  

My Dad died the summer of our UEFA Cup season. The first thing I did when the final whistle went in Munich at the end of our 2-1 win was have a chat with him, along the lines of "are you watching Dad?, We beat the bloody Germans! Us!" Football and Dads are inseperable. My 18 year old son is now as nuts about NCFC as me and we shared Sunday together - thats what life is. Don''t apologise - rejoice that you had football to share, and cheer, shout and curse even louder now. Don''t care what league we are in. OTBC forever.

[quote user="silver fox"] If Russell put as much effort into trying to mark players, make tackles, closedown opponents, track back, support the forwards, as he does in providing storylines for the Pink Un he might actually contribute something towards the team staying up.  I watched him closely on Monday and for the majority of the game he marked open space, he didn''t close their players down, he strolled around midfield as though he was out for a Sunday walk.  He writes that we shouldn''t be where we are and cannot understand it, well quite simply Russell it is because we have had too many players like you in the team all season. I felt sorry for Clingan as he didn''t have a midfield partner.  Gunn should have put young Korey Smith in and he would have put in a better performance. Whatever happens on Sunday Russell must be one of those we ship out at the end of the season, and he can easily be replaced by either Spillane or Smith. [/quote] The scary thing is that the article indicates yet again that the players still think they will get out of it. I am convinced that at no point so far have they truly believed they were going to be relegated, and they still don''t. When bookies have you as 1/12 to go down it''s time you started thinking it was more than a possibility, but just like at Fulham 4 years ago, the team will turn up thinking all will be well. I have little hope.....

[quote user="Pastry"]That would be the Shackell who lost his man for both Reading goals ? [quote user="CANARYCHARGE"]If the board seriously want to start to get us out of this mess, then shakell is amust..... i do think we need rebuild and he has developed so much since he went to wolves, i for one would welcome him back! [/quote][/quote]   Spot on! Shackell is extremely average and not worth spending money on. He loses his man frequently at set pieces.

Charlton 2 Norwich 1, Plymouth 1 Barnsley 2

[quote user="Camuldonum"] Here is a curious thing: last year, Mr C was 40th in the Sunday Times Rich List with an estimated worth of £1.7 billion. This year he does not appear on the list at all.  Either it is an oversight by the list compiler or they know something we don''t. Has he been badly hit? Yes - but still not exactly "on his uppers" as they used to say.  I certainly don''t think he is currently worth anywhere near £1.7b at the moment. [/quote] The so called "Rich List" is complete garbage anyway! I personally know at least a dozen people who should be in it and I would imagine every single wealth advisor or decent IFA will know at least a dozen each. The really rich and powerful keep their heads well below any radar and miles away from prying journo''s. It''s only the ones who want the attention that you ever hear about, or those involved in "public" areas who can''t keep out of the limelight. Cullum isn''t in it because Towergate were re-negotiating their banking covenants and the compilers couldn''t accurately assess his wealth. They couldn''t anyway because he owns a lot more stuff than they know about, but thats the reason they give.

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="sgncfc"] I agree that Big Fella''s post is superb - so nice to see some intelligent, structured comment on what is usually a kiddies rant site. Just one thing omitted in my opinion and that is the effect of Sky money and player greed during the period of our demise. Very few boards or managers could have done anything vastly differently in my opinion because of this millstone. Put simply, wealth cascades downwards. So we now have clubs like Newcastle and Middlesbro about to leave the Prem despite their wealthy backers, because most of the clubs above them have BIGGER wealthy backers. The successful Championship clubs (with one or two notable exceptions) also have wealthy backers. The reason we, Charlton and Southampton are going further down the tree is because we can no longer even compete with this level. Our backer isn''t big enough. Look at the clubs coming up from League One. Look at the ones making moves upwards in League Two and the Conference. With almost no exceptions they have financial muscle. When you have a player like Lee Croft supposedly after £9,000 a week it illustrates the problem. I like Crofty as a player. He works hard. But lets be honest, even if he may be the best player in the 42nd best football club in England is he really worth this kind of money? Let me re-state that - He may be the best player at the 42nd best club in England. He is in his early 20''s and he wants almost half a million pounds a year in salary. In a recession. From a club about to be in the Third Division. What income does he generate? How many people pay to see him? Would 1200 people not go every week if he wasn''t here? Crucially - why does he think he should get this kind of reward for failure? But he can easily get that at 20 of the 41 clubs ranked above us. Maybe more.That''s our problem. Yes, Doncaster is an overpaid, incompetent, uncommunicative buffoon. Yes, Delia and MWJ have made mistakes. Yes, our managers have been poor. But all in all while the Liverpools and Chelseas and Man Utd''s cream the money and make everyone else sprint to keep up, those of us who can''t have no chance. So Mr Scouser, I accept your tinted memories with the good grace they were offered - but please don''t try to pretend that you are not part of our problem. Until the FA and the Premiership sees the bigger picture and  redistributes the cash or Sky withdraws the big bucks, we and clubs like us have no chance. [/quote] Sure, modern football''s changed. But does that either explain or excuse the cascade (to use a word you employed) of mistakes the board have made throughout their tenure? No - no it does not. What does SKY''s hold over the EPL have to do with their inertia for a whole year when Worthington should''ve dismissed, and ridiculous appointments of Grant, Roeder and Gunn (not that the latter is to blame in any way)? Nothing. Instead, it''s given them a ready made excuse: "We can''t compete. Football isn''t fair." But that spineless attitude is a complete betrayal of the fans of this club: as I said, the board prioritise community over winning, and look where it''s got us. The two year window of parachute payments has made it very difficult for clubs who fall out of the EPL if they don''t get back within that period - but that means the board needed to be at their most focused and on the ball between 2005 and 2007, yet they proved the exact opposite. Failing to dismiss Worthington - then hedging their bets, and refusing to back him properly in the transfer market either - was utterly disastrous. The repercussions have left us where we are today; yet the board learnt so little from the saga that, as Barry has said, they even tried to get him back a few months ago! Meanwhile, Charlton and Southampton are in such a dire position because of boardroom incompetence worse than or at least equal to our own. Charlton spent two seasons'' worth of money in a single summer when Curbishley left and Dowie was appointed; then panicked and sacked Dowie prematurely; then appointed the ludicrous Les Reed! Relegation devastated them, because they''d overspent so catastrophically. And Saints, who already had a bloated, largely useless squad under Harry Redknapp, gave George Burley crazy amounts of money to spend when he was appointed - because their board thought a large transfusion of cash was about to come their way via external investment. But the investment didn''t happen, meaning they had one chance to gain promotion or be destroyed. When Derby knocked them out of the 2007 play-offs on penalties, the die was cast: they were *this* close to administration that very summer, and the slide has continued ever since. What the parachute payments system has done is separate the wheat from the chaff: the well, ruthlessly run clubs from the lazy, ineptly run ones. For a club our size to be relegated from this league, you have to be run with the most staggering level of incompetence: that certainly applied to Manchester City, Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds United, Queens Park Rangers, Nottingham Forest and Leicester City when they went down; it applies to Charlton, Southampton and Norwich now. But it doesn''t apply to West Brom, Birmingham, Reading, or at a more moderate level Crystal Palace; and it certainly doesn''t to Stoke, Hull, Preston or Burnley. All smaller clubs than ourselves; all doing very nicely thankyou. Good grief: Blackpool have stayed up for a second straight season, Doncaster have survived as well - how can they do it, but not us? Answer: our board. [/quote]   I am not excusing the board''s mistakes, but all of the clubs you mention, except perhaps Doncaster, have very wealthy backers. And they won''t survive long in the Championship without one. We could have had one too if our board had been more open and honest about things last summer.

[quote user="canary cherub "] (this is a thread about finance so if you''re not interested you can stop here) 1.  In 2003 the board decided to borrow £15m, £8m or so to rebuild the South Stand and the rest to reschedule the club''s existing debt so that they could borrow even more.  The loan was secured against matchday income (including season ticket sales).  2.  Servicing the loan left a substantial hole in matchday income, and in the hope of replacing it they borrowed another £2.5m to buy the LSE land, which they thought they could sell for development at a substantial profit.   3.  The land turned out to cost them double once they''d paid for access roads, planning permission, interest on the loan etc.  It didn''t sell even at the height of the property boom and right now you couldn''t give it away.  4.  £15m loan still has to be paid on a rigid schedule until 2018 or the club will go bust, and so does the £2.5m loan to buy the land - hence drastic cutbacks in every department especially football.  That''s why we can only afford £1.9m for player wages, which won''t even pay for a decent League 1 side. 5.  Having got themselves into a huge financial hole, along comes Peter Cullum with an opportunity to dig themselves out of it provided they paid the price by relinquishing control of the club they had so royally screwed up.  They turned it down . . . . . . you know the rest   [/quote]   Same thing as Ridsdale did at Leeds, similar to what the banks have just been doing - borrowing/lending money based on future income and values. Great idea when the income is good and values are increasing, bad idea when you are relegated to League One.........big, big problem coming up. I don''t believe that administration is impossible - everything depends on what the players contracts say. If we can''t save money on wages, it will be our only option.

Don''t blame me - I voted for Leroy Lita.

[quote user="Jim Kent"]I don''t think I have ever felt so depressed and dejected about Norwich. I think we have really blown it. So many chances to save ourselves. Blackpool(away), Ipswich(away), Sheffield Wednesday(home), Reading(home). How many chances d you need. I don''t think we deserve a favour from Plymouth relegation is our own fault. Honestly I think our chances are gone and we will be relegated. But nonetheless I will be going to Charlton to witness the possible lowest day in the clubs history for 50 years. I am hoping for a miracle, but I can''t see us getting it.[/quote] There is no way we will beat Charlton. We don''t deserve the miracle and even if it happens and we survive we are only postponing the inevitable for a year. We had the miracle last year don''t forget. This club is on its knees and without a serious investor we can''t recover. Unless we spend money we won''t come back and we have no money to spend.We can place our hopes in the academy but that takes years to produce one or two players - and whether we can keep the academy going in league one is uncertain anyway. We can only hope that in League One we find our true level and don''t keep plummeting.

I agree that Big Fella''s post is superb - so nice to see some intelligent, structured comment on what is usually a kiddies rant site. Just one thing omitted in my opinion and that is the effect of Sky money and player greed during the period of our demise. Very few boards or managers could have done anything vastly differently in my opinion because of this millstone. Put simply, wealth cascades downwards. So we now have clubs like Newcastle and Middlesbro about to leave the Prem despite their wealthy backers, because most of the clubs above them have BIGGER wealthy backers. The successful Championship clubs (with one or two notable exceptions) also have wealthy backers. The reason we, Charlton and Southampton are going further down the tree is because we can no longer even compete with this level. Our backer isn''t big enough. Look at the clubs coming up from League One. Look at the ones making moves upwards in League Two and the Conference. With almost no exceptions they have financial muscle. When you have a player like Lee Croft supposedly after £9,000 a week it illustrates the problem. I like Crofty as a player. He works hard. But lets be honest, even if he may be the best player in the 42nd best football club in England is he really worth this kind of money? Let me re-state that - He may be the best player at the 42nd best club in England. He is in his early 20''s and he wants almost half a million pounds a year in salary. In a recession. From a club about to be in the Third Division. What income does he generate? How many people pay to see him? Would 1200 people not go every week if he wasn''t here? Crucially - why does he think he should get this kind of reward for failure? But he can easily get that at 20 of the 41 clubs ranked above us. Maybe more.That''s our problem. Yes, Doncaster is an overpaid, incompetent, uncommunicative buffoon. Yes, Delia and MWJ have made mistakes. Yes, our managers have been poor. But all in all while the Liverpools and Chelseas and Man Utd''s cream the money and make everyone else sprint to keep up, those of us who can''t have no chance. So Mr Scouser, I accept your tinted memories with the good grace they were offered - but please don''t try to pretend that you are not part of our problem. Until the FA and the Premiership sees the bigger picture and  redistributes the cash or Sky withdraws the big bucks, we and clubs like us have no chance.

[quote user="matt8"]Have just seen that Doncaster has issused a half apology. He says he regrets it i guess. As above poster, i really cant see anything else being done. I guess i''m just guna forget about it all and enjoy the day out at the Valley.[/quote] Except that what he is saying isn''t actually true. When I phoned up the box office on Monday morning about Reading tickets, I also enquired about Charlton ones and was told that when they opened their post on the Tuesday morning (i.e. the day  after the deadline had passed) there were loads of applications which they decided to process because they had already said that everyone who had applied in writing got one. How bizarre that the number of available tickets should exactly match the number applied for in writing so that no-one who applied in writing is disappointed and there are none available for general sale. It''s a trivial matter, perhaps and yes, those of us who missed out should have applied in writing (but some of us didn''t even know about the deadline) but the biggest issue here is that either the ticket office or Mr Doncaster is, at best, mis-informed or at worst, lying. Seems like a fairly common situation at NCFC these days.

He is absolute rubbish. Saw him frequently while at Watford - a complete donkey and fans would hate him as he is very lazy.

Have just spoken to the ticket office - there will be no Charlton tickets available for general sale on 22nd as all have been taken by late received postal applications. Charlton have been asked for extra tickets and have refused. So for the several thousand of us who have missed out, those of you who get to go better make some b****y noise!!

I think you''re almost spot on - other than us getting a draw at Ipswich which we won''t. But if the results do pan out as you suggest we will go to Charlton having to win to guarantee survival (because of our superior GD) and I would take that now.

We were never likely to get anything from Swansea away though, were we? The point at Birmingham was a bonus and got us into a position where we could have saved it, but poor tactics and team selection lost us 3 points against Sheff Wed. It''s a shame we have a novice manager, but I don''t see any reasonable alternatives for a club in our position. There is no doubt that our manager cares and is doing his best, and it is frustrating to see the blindingly obvious being ignored (like Croft being unfit, Carney being on a different planet, more pace needed up front etc) but it is THE PLAYERS who have got us into this. If Clingan is worth £3m and Croft/Marshall/Bertrand et al are looking to the Premiership why are we in such a mess? I know it''s a cliche but we really do have to take things one game at a time - we must beat Watford and then see where we are. I have always thought we would need 52 points to stay up and although fixtures are very unpredictable this time of year I still expect a couple of the teams above us to have bad run-ins. Personally, I see a very nervy 2-1 win over Watford. Can''t see us getting anything at Ipswich other than a sound thrashing but a night game, full house, backs against the wall win against Reading will take us to 49 points and the chance of a win on the last day to be safe. Whether we do that or not will be down to the manager (as it was last time against Fulham when Worthington showed just how tactically inept he was) and we can only hope that Bryan Gunn will have worked out what his best team is by then, and that Alan Lee stays fit.

Brilliant post, Snap!! And Fozzie only goes sideways because his legs are at the wrong angle.....!!

Do you actually go to any games, Jas? And if you do, do you watch them? Did you notice Hoolahan against the s**m? Bell and Hoolahan are both decent players and bargains at this level. Pattison at Watford was excellent, particularly second half and has had several good games this season. Stefanovic was another decent signing and was expected to be our experienced "rock" at the back. I agree we have some problems - playing 6 midfielders yesterday being one of them - and several of the loans have not come off (wonder if that''s why they are loans?) Koroma is a donkey, Kennedy is indeed slow and the most injury prone center back in the world and Sibierski (despite his being played out of position) has not really turned up. But I rate Lupoli and like most of us don''t understand why he doesn''t feature more, and Lita is the only goalscorer we have at the club, even if temporary. Omozusi has been excellent evrytime he has played at centreback, but often crap as a fullback. The players that have really let us down are Otsemobor, Doherty, Bertrand and Russell - all of whom switch off for large parts of every game they play and either make basic errors that cost us goals or don''t concentrate enough to score them. Just one other point though about the "we are better than last year" argument - we actually have fewer ponts now after 23 games than we had last year...... Nevertheless, I genuinely feel optimistic about the second half of the season and still think we are only own or two players away from being a decent team.