Had just about enough of idiot Norwich fans

[Mr Jenkins 0]

reggie

"If you attended a prefessional theatre performance where the actors constantly forgot their lines, scenery changes were bungled and there had been poor directorship, would you just cheer and clap anyway ? No, you would make your views known. In what way is a football match any different ?"

Nail on head Reggie, that''s the whole supporters of a club v spectator argument crystallised and. I guess is why we will never agree on this point.

As a supporter I feel I have a completely different emotional engagement with a game of footy than I would have at the theatre watching a one off production.

[lake district canary 4,533]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]If you attended a prefessional theatre performance where the actors constantly forgot their lines, scenery changes were bungled and there had been poor directorship, would you just cheer and clap anyway ? No, you would make your views known. In what way is a football match any different ?[/quote]

I''ve been to many theatre events where the performance has been below par, or there have been mistakes.  You put up with it, clap politely at the end and go on your way - if you didn''t like it you talk about it afterwards, not stamp your feet and boo and openly complain.  

Positive audiences have an effect on theatre performances too.  I''ve been involved with music/theatre for a long time and can tell you that performers/musicians on stage play a lot better when the audience is responsive in a positive way.  It encourages and relaxes them and inspires them into giving their best performance.   If a mistake happens, or there are technical problems on stage, you are aware as a performer that the audience can feel slightly uncomfortable with it, but your professionalism will normally see you through.   If  a musician or actor made a mistake or mistakes and the audience started booing, you would think that it was out of order.   I would anyway. 

Sports performance, music performance and theatre performance are related.  The big difference with sport though is that there is an opponent that is trying to beat you.   Therein lies the solution for the boo-ers.   They are directing their angst/frustration at the wrong people - aim it at the opponents, boo them every time they get the ball. Ridicule them and shout at them instead.   They are the people who need it.  Booing or turning on your own is like pulling hairs - painful and serves no good purpose.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

LDC

"The problem with this is that as soon as you tell people they are having a negative effect, they turn round and say fans don''t have any influence over events"

They may say that but I would love to see a genuine reasoned argument to support that view.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]reggie

"If you attended a prefessional theatre performance where the actors constantly forgot their lines, scenery changes were bungled and there had been poor directorship, would you just cheer and clap anyway ? No, you would make your views known. In what way is a football match any different ?"

Nail on head Reggie, that''s the whole supporters of a club v spectator argument crystallised and. I guess is why we will never agree on this point.

As a supporter I feel I have a completely different emotional engagement with a game of footy than I would have at the theatre watching a one off production.[/quote]Fair enough, Jenks. What you are talking about there is blind devotion . Nothing inherently wrong with it . And why this whole thread is really something of a waste of time.For the simple reason is that we ALL come at this whole thing from differing angles .You are clearly one of those for whom, it''s Norwich, YOUR team and no-one can do any wrong. Other people wiil take all sorts of different views on this. Me included.That''s why I''m pointing that out to Matt. Because the prognosis he made in his OP is far too simplistic, and also I just do not like anyone coming at it from a standpoint of stating that just because they are doing someting differently from what he would advocate then they are ''just plain wrong '' etc.

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]LDC

"The problem with this is that as soon as you tell people they are having a negative effect, they turn round and say fans don''t have any influence over events"

They may say that but I would love to see a genuine reasoned argument to support that view.[/quote]The idea that home fan reaction has little or no influence on what happens on the pitch is certainly not a view held by managers of away teams or ex-players and ex-managers commentating on games. You can be sure that the manager of every team coming to Carrow Road takes notice of the fact that the home support can easily be silenced and almost as easily made to turn on their own players.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

Sports performance, music performance and theatre performance are related.  The big difference with sport though is that there is an opponent that is trying to beat you.   Therein lies the solution for the boo-ers.   They are directing their angst/frustration at the wrong people - aim it at the opponents, boo them every time they get the ball. Ridicule them and shout at them instead.  

[/quote]That''s fair comment up to a point LDC, but loses sight of the fact that last week the booing was not because Brentford were a better team or outplaying us. What would have been the point of booing  Pritchard or any of the other Brentford players ?The booing was at perceived shortcomings of our own team. Whether that was fair is another question for another day, but where your analogy falls down a bit.

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="TCCANARY"]

 

The evidence is in your statement.

''Physician heal thyself''.

 

 

[/quote]No....thought not.Another long line is the one of people who make wild allegations about fellow posters without any evidence to back it up. And TCC is a member of that line, clearly.Matt.....I DO get what you are saying . That''s why I''ve already stated that I agree with a good deal of the message you are giving. It''s just that I''m saying that accusing people who have a perfectly valid opinion as ''constantly wrong'' or ''drivel'' is not terribly helpful. If you cannot see that , then there''s no point in continuing this discussion.[/quote]

Thats the whole point tho Reggie, i dont consider it to be a perfectly valid opinion when you slate a RB playing in CM and you slate a manager who has been here 5 mins. Its drivel, pure and simple.

[ZLF 274]

have to agree with the OP. spot on

[Jim Smith 2,322]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]Smooth

"Booing at half time can then give a player a boost and a management team to step it up. That half time team talk can help. Depends on the skill of the management team, usually the. Booing is directed to them not the player. "

I would take a bit of convincing Smooth, that booing at half time makes a positive contribution. Our manager will have seen whatever unfolded on the field during the first half and will have a view of what needs to be done to change it.

I don''t think booing from the crowd is going to make him change his assessment, all it is likely to do is create a more nervous atmosphere in the ground which often results in nervous players who lose confidence and perform less well.[/quote]

I would see booing at half time as the fan equivalent of the manager giving the players the hairdryer treatment in the dressing room. Its sending the message that the 45 minutes that have just passed was not acceptable to the fans from a performance perspective and that they need to buck their ideas up.

Booing at full time or on other occasions is really the fans venting which they are entitled to do. To be hoenst i think bar a few heroic failures every defeat i''ve ever seen at Carrow Road has seen some boos on the full time whistle, more people booing the result than the players.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Reggie Strayshun wrote the following post at 02/02/2015 11:21 AM:

Mr Jenkins wrote:

reggie "If you attended a prefessional theatre performance where the actors constantly forgot their lines, scenery changes were bungled and there had been poor directorship, would you just cheer and clap anyway ? No, you would make your views known. In what way is a football match any different ?" Nail on head Reggie, that''s the whole supporters of a club v spectator argument crystallised and. I guess is why we will never agree on this point. As a supporter I feel I have a completely different emotional engagement with a game of footy than I would have at the theatre watching a one off production.

Fair enough, Jenks. What you are talking about there is blind devotion . Nothing inherently wrong with it . And why this whole thread is really something of a waste of time.

For the simple reason is that we ALL come at this whole thing from differing angles .You are clearly one of those for whom, it''s Norwich, YOUR team and no-one can do any wrong. Other people wiil take all sorts of different views on this. Me included.That''s why I''m pointing that out to Matt. Because the prognosis he made in his OP is far too simplistic, and also I just do not like anyone coming at it from a standpoint of stating that just because they are doing someting differently from what he would advocate then they are ''just plain wrong '' etc.

No Reggie, I am not talking about it''s my team and "no one can do any wrong", far from it. But the point I am making is that there is no benefit in expressing dissatisfaction by booing our own players during a game, it''s destructive and makes things worse.

Boo at the end, chuck your happy clappers on the field at the end, throw your cushions and blankets if you have one, protest at the ground, beat McNally up in Prince of Wales Road and tell him he''s a cunt, but I can''t see any conceivable point in booing our players during a game.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]  But the point I am making is that there is no benefit in expressing dissatisfaction by booing our own players during a game, it''s destructive and makes things worse.

Boo at the end, chuck your happy clappers on the field at the end, throw your cushions and blankets if you have one, protest at the ground, beat McNally up in Prince of Wales Road and tell him he''s a cunt, but I can''t see any conceivable point in booing our players during a game.[/quote]........and, as I''ve already stated, Jenks, I largely tend to agree with you on that. That''s why I do not boo during the game.But what I''m objecting to,( and Matt still seems to be missing the point) is that we ALL come at this from different angles. And I repeat that just because we and some others think that way does not make it ''right''. Or people who take a different approach ''constantly wrong '' or talking drivel''. Just different. That''s all.

[lake district canary 4,533]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]But what I''m objecting to,( and Matt still seems to be missing the point) is that we ALL come at this from different angles. And I repeat that just because we and some others think that way does not make it ''right''. Or people who take a different approach ''constantly wrong '' or talking drivel''. Just different. That''s all.[/quote]

So there is no right or wrong anymore.  So booing your own players during a match is not wrong, its just "different". Being different isn''t wrong, its just........different...........So if behaviour that is different can''t be seen as wrong, presumably it can''t be seen as right either?

So where does that leave supporters?   We are all different and can show our approval/disapproval in whatever we want?? 

But what does the word supporter imply?   It implies we give our support. But booing is not giving support, it is doing the opposite, therefore it is wrong, either that or the people who are doing it are not "supporting".  So what are they if not supporters?  Doom mongers?   Binners who have infiltrated CR to bring us down?  

We all know crowds can be negative at times - but some seem to harbour it longer than others  and show it more readily than others.  They are mis-guided.  They are hanging on to an emotion that belongs in the past - almost relishing it because it is a familiar feeling.  What most of us do is not hold on to grudges, not hold on to past grievances - we try and see what is, rather than what was.  In that way we can enjoy things when things are good and disappointed when things are bad.   Booing so readily indicates a mindset that is set in the past and it should be pointed out to these people every time it happens that they are booing about something that  doesn''t exist.

[Lord Horn Returns 0]

Nice to see you using a pic I took of Steve Coppell taking a corner at the River End in April 1979 as your AVI.  Did you get it off the Geograph website???  Always thought it was one of the best footie pics I have taken. No problems with your use of it BTW.  OTBC!!

[Lord Horn Returns 0]

That was for River End Canary BTW.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]But what I''m objecting to,( and Matt still seems to be missing the point) is that we ALL come at this from different angles. And I repeat that just because we and some others think that way does not make it ''right''. Or people who take a different approach ''constantly wrong '' or talking drivel''. Just different. That''s all.[/quote]

So there is no right or wrong anymore.  So booing your own players during a match is not wrong, its just "different". Being different isn''t wrong, its just........different...........So if behaviour that is different can''t be seen as wrong, presumably it can''t be seen as right either?

So where does that leave supporters?   We are all different and can show our approval/disapproval in whatever we want?? 

But what does the word supporter imply?   It implies we give our support. But booing is not giving support, it is doing the opposite, therefore it is wrong, either that or the people who are doing it are not "supporting".  So what are they if not supporters?  Doom mongers?   Binners who have infiltrated CR to bring us down?   We all know crowds can be negative at times - but some seem to harbour it longer than others  and show it more readily than others.  They are mis-guided.  They are hanging on to an emotion that belongs in the past - almost relishing it because it is a familiar feeling.  What most of us do is not hold on to grudges, not hold on to past grievances - we try and see what is, rather than what was.  In that way we can enjoy things when things are good and disappointed when things are bad.   Booing so readily indicates a mindset that is set in the past and it should be pointed out to these people every time it happens that they are booing about something that  doesn''t exist.

[/quote]That argument only works if you call yourself a supporter. I call myself a fan (others may may different words for me...) because I am devoted to Norwich City. But apart from putting money into the club I don''t support it in the way, for example, I might support a political party or a charity. As it happens I have never booed at a football match, but being a fan wouldn''t stop me.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

So there is no right or wrong anymore.  So booing your own players during a match is not wrong, its just "different". Being different isn''t wrong, its just........different...........So if behaviour that is different can''t be seen as wrong, presumably it can''t be seen as right either?

So where does that leave supporters?   We are all different and can show our approval/disapproval in whatever we want?? 

[/quote]Yep, Lakey. Got it in one. That''s about the size of it. In matters such as this there really is no right/wrong. Just different shades of opinion. And action.Indeed if this attitude was taken in the much wider world than that of football, and people just accepted others'' different opinions for being just that, then there''d be one hell of a lot less strife and bloodshed in the world. We live in hope.Closer to home, we also would not have to suffer thread titles in which one person calls fellow Norwich supporters ''idiots''.

[lowlyfendweller 0]

I have certainly met my share of idiot Norwich supporters, but on the whole we''re an OK bunch, but I understand where the OP is coming from.

[nutty nigel 7,537]

Lakey and Reggie sum it up. Its just different.

Those who encourage the team in both good times and bad are supporters. Those who encourage the team in good times but heckle and boo in bad times are fairweather supporters. That''s the difference.

Another difference is that those who support through thick & thin are thick&thinos where as those who only support through thick are thickos...

[lake district canary 4,533]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="lake district canary"]So there is no right or wrong anymore.  So booing your own players during a match is not wrong, its just "different". Being different isn''t wrong, its just........different...........So if behaviour that is different can''t be seen as wrong, presumably it can''t be seen as right either? So where does that leave supporters?   We are all different and can show our approval/disapproval in whatever we want??  [/quote]Yep, Lakey. Got it in one. That''s about the size of it. In matters such as this there really is no right/wrong. Just different shades of opinion. And action.Indeed if this attitude was taken in the much wider world than that of football, and people just accepted others'' different opinions for being just that, then there''d be one hell of a lot less strife and bloodshed in the world. We live in hope.Closer to home, we also would not have to suffer thread titles in which one person calls fellow Norwich supporters ''idiots''.[/quote]

Naughty Reg, leaving out the most important bit.........."But what does the word supporter imply?   It implies we give our

support. But booing is not giving support, it is doing the opposite,

therefore it is wrong, either that or the people who are doing it are

not "supporting". 

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

The word supporter is a cover-all.Theoretically you can ''support'' the club financially, yet never attend a single match. No booing and no cheering either.So, your very narrow definition tells only a fraction of the tale........

[nutty nigel 7,537]

Its quite plain that this whole thread is about supporting or not during matches. Not even halftime or fulltime let alone those who financially support and don''t even go. This continual wriggling and moving of goalposts is ridiculous. Be honest like Rickyyy and admit you''re boo boys and even thickos....

[lake district canary 4,533]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"]The word supporter is a cover-all.Theoretically you can ''support'' the club financially, yet never attend a single match. No booing and no cheering either.So, your very narrow definition tells only a fraction of the tale........[/quote]Really.  Lets take Whittaker. A player who puts himself out there, never hides.  Some good play, some not so good.  So what do we do as "supporters".  Support him?  Give him encouragment? (after all that is what "support" means).  Or do we do show the opposite of "support" and boo him and generally try to undermine his confidence?   If the boos were directed at the manager - wtf is that all about - he''s only just been appointed and hasn''t even got his staff in.   If the boos were directed at the board - what is the point in that mid-game?  

Real supporters support - all of us can moan when things don''t go well or a player does something wrong, but to boo them directly, or the manager or even the board, mid-match, in my books is tantamount to footballing treason.

 

[Buh 0]

Same old Norwich fans covering themselves in glory again this morning. I was hoping for a stiffer winter to perhaps get rid of a few of the frailer ones. Shame.

[Herman 9,779]

Snow has finally turned up so maybe that will get rid of a few of the feckers! Jesus anybody would''ve thought we''d sold all of our best players.

[Indy 3,301]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Lakey and Reggie sum it up. Its just different.

Those who encourage the team in both good times and bad are supporters. Those who encourage the team in good times but heckle and boo in bad times are fairweather supporters. That''s the difference.

Another difference is that those who support through thick & thin are thick&thinos where as those who only support through thick are thickos...[/quote]

Well here''s a question to you and those who hate the negative fans and say tgey support the team.....where were you during the Brentford game when thing were bad on the pitch ? I couldn''t hear anyone singing....cheering....or being supportive, only the booing.

So if you all class yourself as a real suppirter and not a ''Fairweather supporter what happened to you? Where was the support? Why were you all so quiet during that game ?

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="Indy"]

Well here''s a question to you and those who hate the negative fans and say tgey support the team.....where were you during the Brentford game when thing were bad on the pitch ? I couldn''t hear anyone singing....cheering....or being supportive, only the booing.

So if you all class yourself as a real suppirter and not a ''Fairweather supporter what happened to you? Where was the support? Why were you all so quiet during that game ?[/quote]Absolutely spot on, Indy.But then again you are discounting the fact that people like NN, who come on here with there tedious unfunny lectures, are of the "do what I say, not what I do" school of thought.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

Some people are right - and everybody else isn''t.

Being an autistic sort of analyst, the outcome is the clear denominator. Did the action cause the desired effect?

Being a football manager, running a business or being parent teach you - if you are looking - that some actions work and some don''t.

Positive actions feel preferable, but negative ones can have powerful and surprisingly beneficial effects on occasion.

To paraphrase the politics "results dear boy, results"

Parma

[BigFish 1,988]

Clearly the OP and Duncan Edward''s now famous blogpost has resonated with a great number of posters on here. Both are deeply thought out and clearly without an edge. Shame that some posters for some reason choose to respond without addressing the key points. Perhaps you have to be of a certain age to understand this, perhaps it is nostalgia for when it was all new to us, perhaps it requires a certain experience and perhaps it requires a certain intelligence. More likely it is a combination of all of these.

It is not enough to say there are different opinions which are all equally valid. There are some real idiots amongst our support and the posters on this board. When they spout their nonsensical ideas should we not call them out. How will they learn that their behaviour is stupid unless someone points it out. Sure this can debated but with evidence not invented "facts".

To be a football fan is to sign up for a life of disappointment (unless you hop glory hunting from City to United to Chelsea dependent on how the form goes). NCFC is not, and never was, a big club. Norwich was, and the point is this seems to be declining, what the pros used to call a "football city". That means a crowd that was supportive, appreciative and accepting of the fact that any success would be both rare and fleeting. That is not to say there should be no moaning, just that it used to be within the context of that knowledge.

What is increasingly common is moaning based on a denial of the evidence and reality. Following on from Parma''s point evidence would seem to indicate that the atmosphere at CR is effecting results and not in the good way.

[morty 0]

I tell you what would have got a lot of the boo boys back onside Bigfish, a really good, Huckerbyesque, transfer window....

[nutty nigel 7,537]

Huckerby didn''t come during a transfer window Morty. Unless you''re referring to when he was signed permanantly.