It goes deeper than Becchio doesn't it.

[BOO 0]

It''s just a further insight into the way Hughton manages the players which adds fuel to the belief that he is a poor man manager and lacks leadership qualities

[Kangaroo Court 0]

There''s absolutely no comparison between not playing Nash and not playing Becchio. Strikers are regularly rotated but goalkeepers are not. Strikers are brought on as impact substitutes but goalkeepers are not. Becchio was in form when we bought him while Nash was just back-up. And who''s keeping Becchio out the team? Elmander who hasn''t scored any goals. There''s no argument at all for not giving Becchio a chance. It''s just inept management.

[ron obvious 1,517]

Being in the Prem must have seemed like a fabulous dream to Lambert''s players. How many seriously expected to be there? Easy to motivate players who are in that situation.

We are now trying to sign players who other Prem clubs are genuinely trying to sign. A more proven calibre of player, not just those who are grateful to be here at all.

Look at what Lambert has done at Villa. Big names out, young hungry players in. Makes his job a whole lot easier - at least as far as man-management goes.

[Nicko 0]

What makes everyone think they know the whole story? We don''t know what goes on behind closed doors. Maybe Becchio hasn''t been performing well enough in training? Its wrong to make assumptions and to say ''bad management'' after one news article is a bit short sighted in my opinion.

[hogesar 9,792]

Regardless of anything, you can understand Becchio''s frustrations at the very least.

As for people stating that managers don''t just leave ''form players on the bench'' - well that''s exactly what they done when we signed him. He was in fantastic goal scoring form and we didn''t take advantage of that - didn''t even try to. Maybe he wasn''t the best trainer although reports from people at training sessions suggest otherwise. But neither was Holt. But given a decent chance on the pitch Holt scored all those goals for us.

I understand people feel the need to back Hughton here because it''s hardly just him that leaves players frozen on the sideline for long periods. I think the unique thing here is we have had injuries, games where we''re behind, and a strike force who have been far from prolific - and he hasn''t even given him a chance!

People refer to the Bury cup game but i don''t think anyone really stood out in that game and the issue for a striker is a good performance from them tends to rely on a certain amount of service from those behind you.

Personally, i see it as an area of management he needs to work on. It was pretty much guaranteed Becchio would say something eventually. Hughton has come out and said he shouldn''t have said it, which is correct. Hughton says his door is always open - clearly didn''t work for Becchio, he was too frustrated and probably knew the response from the manager without going into his room anyway.

[Juggy 0]

Lambert is managing to keep a group of 5 strikers happy isn''t he?

Helenius, Weimann, Agbonlahor, Benteke, Zozak.

Helenius: 5 apps (0 goals)

Weimann: 12 apps (2 goals)

Agbonlahor: 10 apps (0 goals)

Benteke: 11 apps (5 goals)

Kozak: 9 apps (2 goals)

Bowery 4 apps (0 goals)

He has used 6 strikers already this season. A young kid has played more than Becchio this year. Our figures:

Wolfswinkel 8 apps (1 goal)

Hooper 9 apps (3 goals)

Elmander 12 apps (2 goals)

Becchio 1 apps (0 goals)

So don''t give me rubbish about Becchio not playing any games because he is 4th choice, he doesn''t get games because Hughton can''t use a squad and is scared to change. If Bowery can get games in a squad containing Benteke, then Becchio should get games in a squad containing four strikers - two that have been out for a month this season.

[ricardo 7,436]

[quote user="Vanwink"]It''s just a further insight into the way Hughton manages the players which adds fuel to the belief that he is a poor man manager and lacks leadership qualities[/quote]

Oh Dear, the manager does not rate his 4th choice striker, therefore he lacks leadership qualities and is a poor man manager.

[Juggy 0]

If he doesn''t rate him then why the hell did he buy him? Did he watch him? Did our scouts watch him?

That''s the problem though isn''t it Ricardo, Hughton signed this player! He wasn''t leftover Lambert deadwood, Hughton signed a player who had scored 19 goals in half a season in the Championship and has given him 2 starts in almost a year.

[ricardo 7,436]

[quote user="Le Juge"]If he doesn''t rate him then why the hell did he buy him? Did he watch him? Did our scouts watch him?

That''s the problem though isn''t it Ricardo, Hughton signed this player! He wasn''t leftover Lambert deadwood, Hughton signed a player who had scored 19 goals in half a season in the Championship and has given him 2 starts in almost a year.[/quote]

The fact that he hasn''t played Becchio tells you everything you need to know about how he is rated. Seems to me the whole transfer saga was just to get Morison out. Don''t ask me why because my reply would be pure speculation.

[Dubai Mark 0]

NO the problem is, that right now it appears that anything that comes out in the press about Norwich City is used to add fuel to the Hughton Out campaign, when in fact this stuff is just every day situations that happen in all clubs and all Managers have similar situations to deal with on a daily basis. Other EPL Managers if you delve into things enough will have players in their squads that are not happy, were signed with high hopes yet have had limited chances, even players who thought they were on their way out yet suddenly get back in favour again, players who dont train well and miss out on a place in the team, players that are still in love with previous manager so take every opportunity to snipe at the current Manager, players who we dont rate yet they get in the team etc etc etc. BUT, if any of this happens with Chris Hughton right now we get a total over reaction in an attempt to prove he is not fit for his job...So he/the club signed Becchio last season, probably partly to get Morison moved on and Becchio (who I actually rated) hasnt had much of a look in since, it happens......just like he could come on as sub tomorrow and score the winner, that could happen.....just like similar things will happen at other clubs, big or small, all the time.....even to the Wenger''s, O''Neill''s and Mancini''s of this world these things will be happening...

[Juggy 0]

He signed him on a three and a half year contract Ricardo.

He signed a striker on a three and a half year contract just to get rid of a player who had 18 months left on his?

Whichever way you look at things this is a huge error of judgement on Hughton''s part.

Either he has handed a three and a half year contract to a player he doesn''t consider good enough to use, or he has handed a three and a half year contract to somebody he thought was good enough but clearly isn''t.

So which is it? It''s a huge mistake either way.

When Hughton gets the sack (before xmas I reckon), a new manager is going to come in and we will see what happens to Becchio then. Either he will be given a chance or shipped out, it will go down as a disaster of a signing if he is shipped out and will go down as a disaster of decision to leave him out if he turns out to be pretty good.

[Tumbleweed 106]

So in order to undermine speculation about Hughton''s management style, there is speculation that Becchio was some sort of makeweight.

Just why would a Premier League manager waste his time in the last throes of the transfer window to engage with agents, pay fees (presumably), negotiate wages and arrange medicals to obtain a striker he has no intention of playing because he doesn''t think he is good enough, in order to get rid of another one he also had no intention of playing. Why not just say, here you go here''s my striker?

To me its a binary issue. Either:

(a) Hughton bought him as above in which case his judgement, priorities and use of funds are open to doubt; or

(b) As le Juge eloquently puts it, he has just managed Becchio poorly in which case his man management skills are open to doubt.

And to argue that other clubs have disaffected players is like saying other clubs get relegated. The whole point is that we don''t want to be relegated, so we don''t want to make the mistakes that others do and which can cost them dearly.

Finally, I accept that no manager can get all things right all the time. But with CH a pattern has developed, not only with Becchio, but in most other areas where he is receiving criticism.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

One thing that''s become very apparent reading this thread is todays different attitude to Lambert - last season I think most on here couldn''t stand the bloke, but fast forward a year, attitudes have definitely changed.

I think team spirit was the single most important quality we had to getting results under Lambert, we were a united club top to bottom, you could actually feel the togetherness, the whole club oozed confidence. Now I suspect that unity is broken up into fractions sadly... And we DESPERATELY need to get that back before it''s too late - if that means letting Chris Hughton plus Calderwood etc go then so be it.

[ricardo 7,436]

I leave the speculation to you.

[nutty nigel 7,656]

[quote user="Le Juge"]"Are people here seriously suggesting that Becchio should be played before RvW, Hooper and Elmander?" We are three and a half months into the season and Hooper and RVW have each missed a month of it. Elmander has yet to score. Hooper, RVW and Elmander have 2 goals in 23 collective appearances between them. One of those a penalty. So if you are asking me whether I thought Becchio should be in contention to play more than 14 minutes this season then..... well, yes. Hughton may well have brought Becchio in to be back up to Holt and Kamara, and kept him to be fourth choice, but it doesn''t look like he has made that very clear to Becchio does it.[/quote]

 

From all we know I think he has made that clear. When asked about Becchio at the fan''s forum in October Hughton gave much the same answer''s as he did at the AGM. He also said something about not letting Becchio out on loan because he was needed. Becchio''s 7 appearances on the bench show that to be true. So that was no secret. Having said that it is strange that he''s not been used. I would definitely roll the dice!

 

It''s certainly not a case of Hughton having an "inner squad" of 15 players. He''s used 21 of his squad this season. More than a lot of clubs including Villa. Not surprising with the injuries he''s had to contend with.

 

 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

[quote user="ricardo"]I leave the speculation to you.[/quote]

Not sure if that was in response to me Ricky, but of course I am just speculating - I don''t know either way but gut instinct and rumblings in the press suggest no smoke without fire. I am not 100% ''Hughton Out'', in all honesty my feelings on the matter fluctuate daily but I do get the impression CH is sadly destined to be a ''close but no cigar'' sort of manager for us at least. I would love to see him turn it around though - starting Saturday. OTBC

[Phillip J Fry 0]

[quote user="Le Juge"]Lambert is managing to keep a group of 5 strikers happy isn''t he?

Helenius, Weimann, Agbonlahor, Benteke, Zozak.

Helenius: 5 apps (0 goals)

Weimann: 12 apps (2 goals)

Agbonlahor: 10 apps (0 goals)

Benteke: 11 apps (5 goals)

Kozak: 9 apps (2 goals).[/quote]

Neither Agbonlahor or Weimann have been playing as central strikers though, they''ve been playing as wide forwards win a 4-3-2-1-ish formation. They''re able to do this because they''re more adaptable than our current strikers. Hooper, Elmander, RVW and Becchio all play the exact same position, that of a central striker, none of them are particularly capable of playing in a different position. Essentially, Lambert has 3 central strikers (Kozak, Benteke and Helenius) and 3 wide forwards (Agbonlahor, Weimann, Bowery). It''s easier to keep six people happy when half of them play a different position.

I think the use (or lack of use) of Becchio is open to debate, but this point is just factually incorrect under the Lambert/Villa regime.

[crabbycanary 2]

If you take it a stage further, their goals per games played ratio is poorer than the City ones you listed.

There, life isn''t so bad is it?

[Nexus_Canary 1,041]

Juggy do you have a 50 / 50 button ?Its like half the time you spout drivel then the other half you make perfect sense ! Must admit this is in the sense pile.Hoots has to go, ive known it in my heart for a good 8 months. It just needs to happen, hes not the guy for us !

[cornish sam 968]

Why are people so keen to use this as a stick to bash Hughton, why aren''t people lambasting Bechio for his unprofessional behaviour in speaking to the paper when from all of the quotes it is obvious that he hasn''t spoken to Hughton about it?

Bechio also came to us with a reputation of being a bit of a disruptive presence from his time at Leeds requesting transfers and the such like, trying to get his ''dream move to the premiership'', well htat dream hasn''t worked out, he''s not been good enough, the chances he''s had might have been too limited but he has shown very little in those opportunities to push his case. Granted out other strikers haven''t erally been pulling up trees either, but, Elmander is a ecognised international forward, Van Wolfswinkle and Hooper both came with good pedigrees from the top leagues in the country they were in and are significantly younger than Bechio, who even Leeds fans say (and said at the time, and before the transfer window he left in) wasn''t good enough for the premiership. I wonder who I will believe, the management who see him in training every day and fans who watched him playing matches week in week out for a few seasons or a load of keyboard warriors who are frustrated because the team is not playing well and are clutching at the straw that is Bechio because he hasn''t been tainted by actually being involved in the matches we''ve done so badly in.

 

Just out of interest, what do all of you clamering for Bechio actually expect shuold he get the chance, to get the ball on the edge of our box and drive forward rounding every player on the pitch (including his team mates) before dinking one over the keeper who has bowed down to recognise his brilliance after 3 mionutes on the pitch? Or more likely, someone who is short of match practice wandering around up front not looking like he knows what he should be doing and then shanking the one chance he actually gets into the corner flag? The issue here isn''t the striker that is playing, the issue goes a lot deeper than that, Bechio is not the answer, Hughton might not be the answer (I''m still not sure about this), we need the whole team to start playing with confidence and the first thing that we need is for the players at the back to sort themselves out so we actually have a decent platform to build on and the central midfield, who have undoubted quality, feel confident enough to use it and create chances without being scared of the reprecussions should we lose the ball and the defence get exposed. We play like a team that are scared at the moment and lack leadership, I personally think that Holt going wasn''t a mistake and we have more than replaced his skill, what we haven''t replaced is his presence and that is what is needed and probably isn''t something that any manager would be able to instill if there are no players there who have it (I though Bassong might, but he seems to be back to Spurs form instead of the Newcastle form of last season).

[Nexus_Canary 1,041]

Fair point Sam, but I think the sympathy for Bechio is there because we simply havent seen him play. To be fair my only memory of Bechio on the field was a neat little back heel to set up a Howson screamer. If you were bought into a new job and only had been given a handfull of chances ( and not done anything wrong ) you would be a bit angry. I personally think Bechio has every right to go to the media.We can see there are problems at Norwich. Talk of devides and player attitudes and poor man management. All of that out of the way the truth is SOMETHING IS WRONG.Just look at some of the biligerance going on. Personally still think Snoddy over rulling RvW for a peno is more serious than this in undermining squad morale etc etc etc. Surprised the wolf didnt slap him in the dressing room.

[cornish sam 968]

Nexus, I do agree with you to an extent about feeling angry because of perceived unfair treatment, but, the way to deal with that is not go crying to the press, it''s to confront the issue head on with the person who is treating you badly which neither Bechio or Hughton give the impression he has done. I don''t necessarilly fully blame Bechio for this either, I suspect that there is a hand of an agent/advisor in there as there will have been with his behaviour at Leeds, but there are right ways and wrong ways to go about things and this has been handled in the wrong way.

 

I''m not disagreeing with their patently being something wrong with the team at the moment, I just am not pretending that I know exactly what that is or what the fix is, for all we know the issue may be that Bechio is actually the issue and due to his feeling hard done by he has been undermining the management within the squad and causing these divides and what not (This is a pure far fetched theory by the way, I don''t actually believe that....but the drop in form last season did roughly coincide with is arrival, dun-dun-duuuuunnnnnn). Ultimately something needs to change, whether this be the management, some playing personel or just that they need a damned good piss up and clear the air session of mud wrestling, I don''t know.

[rowdyman 0]

i dont care if he is 4th in line or 10th if the others are not doing it he should be given a chance, he had a good record at Leeds to be fair. The others are hardly pulling up trees, our 8 mill star with a bad tootsie does not fill me with confidence at all and had he cost been 1 mill i think people would have moaned more but it was 8 he has to be good dont he. the position we are in atm the way should be open for all the squad to prove themselves imo.

[BOO 0]

ricardo wrote the following post at 29/11/2013 10:01 AM:

Vanwink wrote:

It''s just a further insight into the way Hughton manages the players which adds fuel to the belief that he is a poor man manager and lacks leadership qualities

Oh Dear, the manager does not rate his 4th choice striker, therefore he lacks leadership qualities and is a poor man manager.

That''s not what I said now is it?

[Juggy 0]

"Its like half the time you spout drivel then the other half you make perfect sense!"

If the criteria for "drivel" is things you disagree with, and the criteria for "perfect sense" is things that you agree with.... then well..... what is there to say. They are called opinions and they are like bumholes, everybody has one.

[CambridgeCanary 0]

And still no one addresses the central issue of why Hughton would not play Becchio if he thought he would add something to the team. It would be self defeating not to play anyone who could turn things round.

Do you really think Hughton is that stupid or that he would cut off his nose to spite his face like this?

[Buh 0]

Do you remember the stick lambert got for not playing wilbraham?

Me neither.

[ricardo 7,436]

[quote user="Vanwink"]ricardo wrote the following post at 29/11/2013 10:01 AM:

Vanwink wrote:

It''s just a further insight into the way Hughton manages the players which adds fuel to the belief that he is a poor man manager and lacks leadership qualities

Oh Dear, the manager does not rate his 4th choice striker, therefore he lacks leadership qualities and is a poor man manager.

That''s not what I said now is it?[/quote]

So what you are saying is that it adds fuel to a belief that you do not share?

[Warren Hill 0]

[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]And still no one addresses the central issue of why Hughton would not play Becchio if he thought he would add something to the team. It would be self defeating not to play anyone who could turn things round. Do you really think Hughton is that stupid or that he would cut off his nose to spite his face like this?[/quote]

 

Er, yeah.

 

He''s also been seen eating yellow snow, pissing in the wind and chopping wood in a rubber dinghy.

 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,599]

[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]And still no one addresses the central issue of why Hughton would not play Becchio if he thought he would add something to the team. It would be self defeating not to play anyone who could turn things round.

Do you really think Hughton is that stupid or that he would cut off his nose to spite his face like this?[/quote]

I''m probably not the best person to answer this, as I think Becchio''s level is the Championship. I doubt he would play much if any better than Elmander. Nor do I think he has been hard done by. This is professional sport.

But it is not unknown for managers to have favourites they stick with despite all the evidence.

Nor it is unknown for a manager to have an irrational downer on a player. Possibly that is the case with Mourinho and Mata.

Nor it is unknown for a manager to keep on selecting a recently acquired expensive and/or high profile player (which Elmander is in comparison with Becchio) even if they are not performing (as with Elmander), because it would look like an admission of failure to drop them.