Anyone admitting Wes isn't upto it....

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="GJP"]

 

Wes has the highest pass completion rate in the squad .

[/quote]

Id love to know his % of keeping the ball and giving it away! [/quote]How do you think a pass completion rate is calculated? And you have the cheek to refer to others as ''uneducated''. All of these statistics are available on the internet but no doubt such research is beneath a footballing expert such as yourself.

[PL-Paul Lambert&Premier League 0]

I thought some of his footwork was quite good tonight, there was a couple of incidents where he dribbled the ball out of about 3-4 players in the park, but to all the moaners, who else is going to do it for us? if theres a man to be creative and do that job its wes, unless you suddenly want us to pull money off the tree and buy a creative attacking midfielder, which trust me is going to cost us...

[CDMullins 436]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"]Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?[/quote]

No I never, I always said that he wasn''t as good as this board made him out to be!

Not that he wasn''t good enough to play in our side at L1 and Championship Level.

He as been fortunate to play in a good side where things have gone right, now he isn''t, he is no where to be seen.[/quote]OK let''s just say you have ''an issue'' with him. I wouldn''t have picked him tonight anyway. A bog of a pitch against a team whose manager always likes to play with plenty of width. Not the best time to play the diamond.[/quote]

So he''s only good when the weather is nice?[/quote]That''s not what I said is it. Paul Lambert regularly changes formations and personnel to suit the particular circumstances of individual matches. The opposition and playing surface tonight did not appear to suit either Wes or the diamond midfield in which he has excelled under Paul Lambert. As an educated football fan I would have thought you might understand that?Oh and you just took a real shoeing a couple of posts back from one of those ''uneducated football fans'' [:D][/quote]

GPJ? stats can say anything you want them to.

If you think Wes making more tackles than anyone of our our players is a good thing, then your are deluded!

Maybe we should have bought Keith Andrews, Trppatoni obviously thinks he is better!

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"]

GPJ? stats can say anything you want them to. [/quote]YEAH YOU CAN PROVE ANYTHING WITH FACTS [:$][:$][:$]

[GJP 79]

[quote user="smooth"]

GJP the highest amounts of assists stat surprise me actually.

 

No question of the mans ability and what he has done in the leagues below, in a very unorthodox way because of how the team has to play to accomodate Wes. I would love it if he could play more out wide, take his marker out to the left, but through the middle for me he is coming up against some of the better midfielders in Europe. Clearly the stat in regard in assists would suggest at times he is beating them. But I believe he isn''t and certainly he has not been a threat with 2 goals only this season. Now for a player who is creating chances and not scoring enough shows where his game is going wrong. His goal ratio was always strong when you included penalties, still scored a few but that help tick it along.

 

Wes being a little more direct, taking a shot on would be great. I have said it, last season when Lansbury played that role near the end of games he was a better player. For me Pacheco and Lansbury were better players, and yes they are not here, but in my eyes they had move ability, more drive and better execution. Wes is a very good player and has proved it at NCFC, he is not untouchable and is not the player that shines out of our team that woudl mean a more established prem. club would come enquiring.

 

Howson, EB (who played in that role for Brighton) and Pilky can all say is that spot up for grabs if we wish to play the diamond. In some games, like tonight it just doesn''t come off and Wes was never in this game at all.

 

But as mentioned he was not alone. Quite happy to move on to the Bolton game, as I am sure many players are, and bring in a few changes like reverting to a 4-4-2 with Pilky and EB out wide.

[/quote]

If Lansbury and Pacheco are better then why is Wes playing more regularly at a much higher standard of football this season? Why didn''t Paul Lambert make them Norwich players for this season?

 

I''ll answer it for you, he knows Wes is simply better equipped to do the business for Norwich than those two are. And if he didn''t believe that then he''d have got either of them, both of them or someone else.

 

I like both those young lads but you have got far too carried away by them, you''re making yourself look foolish.

 

For what it''s worth, seeing as you criticise Wes'' goal return...here''s something to think about...Andres Iniesta, one of the best attacking/creative midfielders in the world, has not scored a league goal this season.

 

You seem to think that because you see Wes an attacking/creative midfielder he has to confirm to some sort of set criteria for playing well in that position. He has to have X amount of assists, he has to X amount of goals or he isn''t doing his job. It doesn''t work like that.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"][quote user="Shack Attack"]Problem is the OP was telling us he wasn''t up to it in League One and Championship level either which was blatantly wrong. He was poor tonight but so were three quarters of the team. Are they not up to it either?
[/quote] No I never, I always said that he wasn''t as good as this board made him out to be! Not that he wasn''t good enough to play in our side at L1 and Championship Level. He as been fortunate to play in a good side where things have gone right, now he isn''t, he is no where to be seen.[/quote]

OK let''s just say you have ''an issue'' with him. I wouldn''t have picked him tonight anyway. A bog of a pitch against a team whose manager always likes to play with plenty of width. Not the best time to play the diamond.
[/quote] So he''s only good when the weather is nice?[/quote]

That''s not what I said is it. Paul Lambert regularly changes formations and personnel to suit the particular circumstances of individual matches. The opposition and playing surface tonight did not appear to suit either Wes or the diamond midfield in which he has excelled under Paul Lambert. As an educated football fan I would have thought you might understand that?

Oh and you just took a real shoeing a couple of posts back from one of those ''uneducated football fans'' [:D]
[/quote] GPJ? stats can say anything you want them to. If you think Wes making more tackles than anyone of our our players is a good thing, then your are deluded! Maybe we should have bought Keith Andrews, Trppatoni obviously thinks he is better![/quote]

 

Well how else do you want to play it? If we don''t use stats we''re using opinions.

 

The stats simply suggest that Wes brings more to the team than you believe he does or are capable of realising he does.

 

Sadly it''s all too obvious that whatever Wes does wouldn''t be good enough for you, you''d always be waiting for a chance to knock him.

[Canariesworld 0]

What a flaming ridiculous post. The club had a bad night tonight, not one individual player. Wes has been great for us this season, just as every other player has been.

Lets get over this minor set back and focus on supporting the team against Bolton rather than sitting behind a keyboard picking on individual players who didn''t play their very best tonight.

OTBC

[chicken 0]

Have said it before and will again I am sure.

Lambert has been great but is not infallable. People are right in saying the diamond puts Wes up against some very tough players. But I also feel, as I said and predicted last season, that the diamond for us at this time will have limited success against well organised prem teams.

The other teams that use it or a similar one ala Chelsea''s 4-3-3, tend to be the higher teams so we are matching up man for man against better players.

Then you have the likes of the Totenham game and Sunderland tonight where there most obvious threats come from wide players or from play built down the width. Playing a diamond against these teams in my opinion just gives them more liscence to attack.

To get the best out of Wes at this level class him as a striker and give him a free rol behind Holt or Morrison. That way he isnt sucking out width from the team and can still dip into midfield to get things going when needed.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

That Wes has the highest % assists and highest passes completed probably shows that most of the traffic is being directed via him. Therefore, block him and you block most of the attacking threat.

O''Neil realised this and last night Sunderland closed off the threat.

When we brought on two wingers we had more width and looked better with more crosses coming in.

The problem is not Wes but the system. Sometimes you have to drop the most creative player if the system demands it.

Lambert called it wrong last night, but he''ll learn from his mistake and move on to the next game. All is not lost.

[Canarino 0]

Completely agree with earlier post by smooth. Well said.

[smooth 114]

gjp I did say they aren''t here.

 

Personally I think they are better players, wages and the reluctance of the other clubs to allow them to leave may have been the reason they could not come. But anyway we are talking about our player Wes.

 

He is a creative player, but we have two creative wide players. If you have a Fox who can distribute and you are going to have two strong forwards then you don''t need the creative little inside pass. Unfortunately for me hoolahoops doesn''t do it enough. This is not a criticism just on the back of this game, I have said it many times. He is part of the teams effort to stay up this season, for me a great little man to have on the bench to turn the game a little.

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="smooth"]

gjp I did say they aren''t here.

 

Personally I think they are better players, wages and the reluctance of the other clubs to allow them to leave may have been the reason they could not come. But anyway we are talking about our player Wes.

 

He is a creative player, but we have two creative wide players. If you have a Fox who can distribute and you are going to have two strong forwards then you don''t need the creative little inside pass. Unfortunately for me hoolahoops doesn''t do it enough. This is not a criticism just on the back of this game, I have said it many times. He is part of the teams effort to stay up this season, for me a great little man to have on the bench to turn the game a little.

[/quote]

 

I would agree with this. In some games Wes has been unplayable, in others anonymous. Sunderland did a number on him by constantly getting in his face and forcing him onto his (non existent) right foot. Consequently he was constantly forced to turn into traffic where he was frequently unloaded. It doesn''t make him a bad player, but I do believe that his weaknesses are now very apparent to other managers and that he will get much less space in that system, part of the  reason, I suspect, for buying Howson, who I see as direct competition for his role.

As an aside, I think the formation last night played into Sunderland''s hands due to it''s lack of width. Their approach was to play a high tempo pressing game which our system helped by effectively shrinking the pitch, but as others have said, it''s just one game and we''''l learn from it.

[Gingerpele 0]

[quote user="CDMullins"]The thing that uneducated football fans cant see is..

[/quote]

There we go, most pathetic comment a football fan can make. Do former pro''s even come out with that line? Don''t you dare accuse me of talking crap.

[Gingerpele 0]

CDMullins, maybe you should go talk to the manager of Norwich, you know the one who has his team 11 points off the relegation zone, after (i''m going to say it) we were in League one just two seasons ago. Hoolahan has been a HUGE part of Lambert''s team. He utilises the diamond formation still for Hoolahan''s benefit, and developed the 4-2-3-1 as well so Hoolahan could still play. He even tried Hoolahan in a flat 4-4-2, and in the 5-3-2 we played for half an hour at Stanford Bridge.

Everyone played bad last night, Hoolahan doesn''t constantly give the ball away (and i''m fairly sure that can be backed up with pass ratio stats, which don''t lie, they are a simple % of how many successful passes a player makes). Hoolahan looked bad, because the whole team were bad.

[First Wizard 0]

He''s too lightweight and loses the ball too easily in this league.

[ron obvious 1,502]

Reflecting on the game last night, I think that the pitch was a bigger factor than many are allowing for. Carrow Road - most Prem. pitches in fact - are very high quality, & our game is tailored to that. I suspect Sunderland players are accustomed to the odd bad bounce & it doesn''t disconcert them.

Obviously it was only one factor. So far as Wes is concerned, they''d obviously done their homework. Apart from anything else, by closing down any passing options he was forced into trying to beat his man (or two) & they''d studied his repertoire of tricks carefully & knew exactly where he was going. Sometimes they plain outmuscled him.

Mainly they just went at us. No space, no time, nothing. They really, really wanted it, we wanted to pass & probe, work our way back into the game, but couldn''t cope with their energy & enthusiasm. Their crowd were great too; excite & expectant of a goal with every attack.

Unfortunately so was I. I could see that own goal coming from the half way line. Oh well.

As I said elsewhere we were out-Norwiched!

[Gingerpele 0]

Its a shame Lambert doesn''t agree with you there isn''t it... 24 appearances out of 26 games this season.

And i''m sure if someone knows a (reliable) site with stats on, it will be proven how good he actually is at keeping the ball.

I seriously can''t believe people think he''s poor and loses the ball so much, do you actually watch him play? Its not all about the final ball, he actually does a lot of link up play, gets the ball between the wings quickly, gets it into the forwards feet or heads. If you think Fox is a good player, then don''t see how you can think Hoolahan isn''t.

[Chelmsford Canary 0]

Last night was bad.

But no one seems to suggest or give credit to Sunderland for their tactics...like marking Wes out of the game, applying pressure whenever he had the ball.

Scoreline looks worse too, first goal was excellent, second was awful defending, and third was a mix up, which could have been dealt with.

Lets not make one of our best players over the last few years a scapegoat!

[drurys testamonials V 15 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="CDMullins"]

GPJ? stats can say anything you want them to. [/quote]YEAH YOU CAN PROVE ANYTHING WITH FACTS [:$][:$][:$][/quote]Didn''t stats prove that Andy Hughes used to cover more of the pitch than any other player when he was here?Did that make him a great player?

[Gingerpele 0]

Whats covering more of the pitch got to do with anything?

Who has ever said, whoever runs the most is the best player?

[star_manic 0]

[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="CDMullins"]The thing that uneducated football fans cant see is.. Wes gives the ball away a hell of a lot regardless of what division he''s been in. In League one, he got away with it a lot of the time, as the oppositions attack was poor, In the Championship he got away with it a little bit less, Now we are in the Prem he is getting away with it a lot less! Wes is a luxury player, fantastic when we are cruising, liability when in a struggle.[/quote]

Let me educate you a bit because it would seem you''re the uneducated one:

 

Wes has the highest pass completion rate* in the squad and only David Fox has played more passes.

 

No other midfielder averages more tackles in a game than Wes.

 

He also has the equal highest number of assists.

 

 

He''s far from a luxury player and any truly "educated" football fan would know that.

 

 

 

*Apart from Lappin and Ayala but their small number of appearances makes it a bit different for them.

[/quote]..............just where do you get these fantasy figures from? wes''s pass completion rate is at best average, but tackling? not in the top ten. he has one good game out of three. FACT.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="star_manic"]..............just where do you get these fantasy figures from? wes''s pass completion rate is at best average, but tackling? not in the top ten. he has one good game out of three. FACT.[/quote]

 

OPINION. You do know the difference don''t you? It''s quite easy to find pass completition figures for all of our players now we are in the Premier League.

[GJP 79]

[quote user="star_manic"][quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="CDMullins"]The thing that uneducated football fans cant see is.. Wes gives the ball away a hell of a lot regardless of what division he''s been in. In League one, he got away with it a lot of the time, as the oppositions attack was poor, In the Championship he got away with it a little bit less, Now we are in the Prem he is getting away with it a lot less! Wes is a luxury player, fantastic when we are cruising, liability when in a struggle.[/quote]

Let me educate you a bit because it would seem you''re the uneducated one:

 

Wes has the highest pass completion rate* in the squad and only David Fox has played more passes.

 

No other midfielder averages more tackles in a game than Wes.

 

He also has the equal highest number of assists.

 

 

He''s far from a luxury player and any truly "educated" football fan would know that.

 

 

 

*Apart from Lappin and Ayala but their small number of appearances makes it a bit different for them.

[/quote]..............just where do you get these fantasy figures from? wes''s pass completion rate is at best average, but tackling? not in the top ten. he has one good game out of three. FACT.[/quote]

Various websites out there but try having a look at whoscored.com. That should provide some handy stats for you.

 

Also try reading some quality analysis, for example the Holtamania blog. It''s probably the best Norwich blog you''ll see because the guy actually understands the game from a tactical point of view and knows how to analyse it.

[Murphy and the Bricks 0]

This really gets my goat, Wes was clearly marked out of the game, Sunderland had done their homework & he had at least two players on him the instant he got the ball....there was no release for the ball....Johnson & Crofts were not at the races.....Huge part of Wes game is to collect, few Irish jigs & then feed it out wide, Johnson & Crofts are not the wide men to feed it out too...when Pilks & Bennett came on we took Wes off. Personally I think for once & it is a one off Lambo got it wrong!!!!!

[The Great Drinkell 50]

Wes was not at his best tonight and needs Fox to help him as nobody last night showed for the ball. Johnson was awful and if you watch his positioning for all 3 goals it was dreadful and more importantly appeared lazy. He never looked for the ball and this left Wes and Surman stranded when they were looking for short passing options.  Johnson has had some very impressive games since he joined us and I hope last night was just one of those games for him. To critise Wes who admittedly got caught dwelling on the ball a few times - as did most of our players - is IMO a little harsh. Our best player last night was Whitbread i don''t think any other player reached the standard they have set themselves this season. When all said and done it''s only one game and credit must also go to Sunderland.

OTBC

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Hoolahans a matchwinner when hes on form but when hes struggling and being closed down by opposition more mobile than us than he isn''t a lot of cop, eg, last night!

 

This is what Hoolahans been about ever since hes been with us and at his age is unlikely to change!

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Chelmsford Canary"]

Last night was bad.

But no one seems to suggest or give credit to Sunderland for their tactics...like marking Wes out of the game, applying pressure whenever he had the ball.

Scoreline looks worse too, first goal was excellent, second was awful defending, and third was a mix up, which could have been dealt with.

Lets not make one of our best players over the last few years a scapegoat!

[/quote]

Why not? It''s merely par for the course and happens time and time again.

[Herman 9,767]

Ahem....anyone admitting Wes is up to it??

Sorry for bringing this doozy back up,but sometimes i get the feeling that some people are waiting for him to have a poor game.

[lake district canary 0]

Wes today was terrific.  As were they all. 

As much as he was frustrated on Wednesday he turned it into positivity today. Great performance.

 

 

 

 

[Sing Up The River End 0]

Wes was brilliant today :)

Lets see who they slag off today?!?

Whitbread or Ayala for getting injured?