something does not add up

[Dean Coneys boots 1,531]

The directors assure us only last week that there WILL be money to spend in January.

Roeder is so desperate for a centre half he is willing to give our best playmaker away for nothing

???????????????????

Why not offer the supposed money for Elliot Ward?

My guess is that Iverson is coming - an already agreed deal. And the directors were seeking to use this signing to placate us- when in fact there is no fresh cash

just a hunch- what do you reckon?

[SwindonCanary 457]

Maybe the money to spend in January is not enough to buy Elliot Ward.

[Thecanaryfan 0]

[quote user="swindoncanary"]Maybe the money to spend in January is not enough to buy Elliot Ward.
[/quote]

lol. good reply.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,531]

ok so lets take some predictions

a) Who will we sell?

b)How much for?

c) How much will we spend?

d) ON who?

 

I say:

a) Marshall - undisclosed (but 1 mill) - Bell & Croft (300k)

b) 1.5million

c) 500k

d) a duff keeper for £250k and a duff centreback

[Dean Coneys boots 1,531]

oh and add Curo to the sell list on a nominal fee

[peartreeproductions 0]

I think the thing is that come january we will have ''some'' money to spend. However that it will likely be less than £500k, perhaps substantially less, and therefore in practical terms might as well be sod all.

We havent found a pot at the end of the rainbow since the turners left and Delia had to fund a £2m hole in the finances. (sorry, dont mean that to sound patronising).

[still holding out for new heroes 0]

If Iversen does come it will be good to see him get on some of those Bell crosses or corners......what?....oh.

[City 2nd 193]

If Iversen does come it will be good to see him get on some of those Bell crosses or corners......what?....oh.I believe Iversen is long term injured at this time........and has not played for a while for his club.

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="porkyp"]
If Iversen does come it will be good to see him get on some of those Bell crosses or corners......what?....oh.

I believe Iversen is long term injured at this time........and has not played for a while for his club.
[/quote]

 thats Ok Glenn likes those sort of players, he has 6 zimmer frames in the treatment room

[Houston Canary 0]

d) a duff keeper for £250k and a duff centreback - the artist formerly known as VIYAG

If that''s the case, I''ll need to start drinking more Duff beer.

 

As for those comminting on Iverson, didn''t we just sign a striker to become the new hero?

[Smudger 0]

Yes the money to spend in January is the money our wonderful board of directors have raised from the sales of Bell and Croft (once they have taken their cut prior to giving to Mr Roeder of course).

Of course our lovely friendly directors have told no lies though... there will be money to spend... [:O] [:$]

[blahblahblah 2]

Yep, something does not add up.  The story.Let''s just wait till January eh ?

[Beauseant 0]

I hate to apply logic to such an incendiary story, but here goes.

It is now the 17th December and the transfer window opens on 1st January.When it does there will be players moving around, both on permanent transfers and loans.At this stage no-one knows who will be available or at what price.Why, therefore, would two clubs not only concoct, but also publicise a deal involving two highly regarded players a full two weeks before anything can be signed and sealed,when better options could well become available?

[mickey phelans tash 0]

Are we in a long queue of 1 clambering for the signature of Elliot Ward...?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="swindoncanary"]Maybe the money to spend in January is not enough to buy Elliot Ward.
[/quote]

Theres £4m that can be squeezed from the working capital as at 31st May 2008. The big question is whether the Bank of Scotland (part of HBOS) want £2.5m of it or whether some of it will be available for transfers.

[ron obvious 1,711]

[quote user="porkyp"]If Iversen does come it will be good to see him get on some of those Bell crosses or corners......what?....oh.I believe Iversen is long term injured at this time........and has not played for a while for his club.[/quote]Steff went to have his knee op. straight after his last match. Could be out for up to 2 months (end Jan.)

[Grando 336]

Great. Another ancient knee injury victim. Sounds ideal. Welcome to Carrow Road Steff!

[Joanna Grey 0]

Chickens and eggs.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Delia S. Tickers"]Chickens and eggs.[/quote]

I''ll have 6 eggs please, how much is that ?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]

Theres £4m that can be squeezed from the working capital as at 31st May 2008. The big question is whether the Bank of Scotland (part of HBOS) want £2.5m of it or whether some of it will be available for transfers.[/quote]

Scuse me for cross-threading, but...

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/full_article.asp?i=4374

Mr Wyatt suggests that having very little working capital is a bad thing, and may cause Watford and Southampton to go into administration.  So why do you think that squeezing working capital is a good idea ?

[Desert Fox 0]

BBB (copied from another thread in reponse to a similar question you have raised)

Ok, I will have a go at explaining this.

If HBOS dont roll over the loan, we will have to find £2.5M before the enbd of the month. This can be financed from of the following sources:

1. Overdraft - hugely unlikley as converting one form of debt for another

2. Fresh equity - unlikely when the club is up or sale

3. Use of working capital - essentially using liquid assets (in this case debtors) to cover for a liability (i.e. the loan)

4. Liquidiate other assets (essentially players or buildings)

Assuming we rule out 1 and 2, option 3 is less painful than option 4.

The question is if we use £2.5M of working capital, would it leave the club dangerously exposed. The question is no, becuase as Canary Nut has pointed out, there is over £4M which can be liquidated from working capital. In this respect, the use of working capital is a misnomer, since most of the figure Canary Nut refers to is deferred transfer receipts and is completely distinct from ordinary working capital that is used to finance day to day operations (i.e. paying bills/wages etc). In a sense, the working capital that Canary Nut is referring is essentially surplus funds over and above those needed for day to day operations.

The most probable worst case scenario is that the debt is not rolled over and the club has to use £2.5M of ''working capital'' is used to the bank off. This leaves the clubs overall net asset (i.e. real worth) completely unchanged since it is cancelling out a liability with a reduction in assets. However, if this is the case, I woudl doubt that there is any spare cash for players. On the other hand, if the loan is rolled over (with likely higher covenants and interest rate margin), the club should have money to fund acquisitions in January or the summer.

I know this sounds a bit complicated, but either way the impact of the loan rollover is not going to cause immediate financial difficulty as it will only impact upon our ability to add to the squad.

Furthermore, the club has sufficient working capital. Problems may arise next year if season ticket sales fall - then we will have a working capital problem.

[First Wizard 0]

[quote user="Desert Fox"]

 

2. Fresh equity - unlikely when the club is up or sale

 

[/quote]

I''ll say this again Desert Fox, ''actively seeking investment'' is not the same as the club being up for sale, Delia spun it, and most of you have swallowed it.

[Desert Fox 0]

Wizard,

I believe she is more desperate to sell than most people realise, but there is no point debating this becuase it is one persons opinion against anothers.

However, on a more certain footing, it would be incredibly stupid of someone to pump equity into the club until the future ownership of the club has been resolved.

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]

Theres £4m that can be squeezed from the working capital as at 31st May 2008. The big question is whether the Bank of Scotland (part of HBOS) want £2.5m of it or whether some of it will be available for transfers.[/quote]

Scuse me for cross-threading, but...

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/full_article.asp?i=4374

Mr Wyatt suggests that having very little working capital is a bad thing, and may cause Watford and Southampton to go into administration.  So why do you think that squeezing working capital is a good idea ?

[/quote]I must have missed Mr. Wyatts tenure as Governor of the Bank of England, was this before he became a Sports Journalist? Still since you have obviously read the part of the article concerning Watford, how comfy do you feel about our Majority shareholders now in light of what has happened with Mr. Simpson and the reasons for it happening?Do you think Mr. Wyatt has scotched over many pertinent comparisons between our Club and some of those he draws attention to?And yes I do, that''s why it''s called ''working capital'', it''s what I run my business on and saves me having to beg off the banks whenever I want to buy anything or pay the wages. I think as Desert Fox points out our clubs ''Working Capital'' isn''t wc in the strictest sense; now as you have astutely derived from the article that insufficient wc can be detrimental to the ability of a business to trade, how do you feel knowing that we probably actually have far less true working capital than previously thought or published, perhaps even less than some of the Clubs Mr. Wyatt elected to''analyse'' in his article? Still I guess we can always raise a few mill in January selling players like the other Clubs huh?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]I must have missed Mr. Wyatts tenure as Governor of the Bank of England, was this before he became a Sports Journalist? [/quote]

Be careful, you wouldn''t want to be labelled arrogant... [;)]

[quote]how do you feel knowing that we probably actually have far less true working capital than previously thought or published, perhaps even less than some of the Clubs Mr. Wyatt elected to''analyse'' in his article? Still I guess we can always raise a few mill in January selling players like the other Clubs huh?[/quote]

[quote]Still since you have obviously read the part of the article concerning Watford, how comfy do you feel about our Majority shareholders now in light of what has happened with Mr. Simpson and the reasons for it happening?[/quote]

If it was £20 million for a cow shed in Hertfordshire, I''m not surprised that people weren''t falling over themselves to pay him that.  There are several going concerns within the football business at Carrow Road, arguably they have value.  D & Ms'' 16 million + 20 to cover debts will be a moving goalpost I''d imagine, on the basis of how badly they want out, and how good the buyers will be for the club.

I don''t know what Mr. Simpsons'' personal circumstances are, but I guess that if our lot are in the same position, they''ll just chuck a couple more million on the fire to keep the wolf from the door.  Nearly all championship clubs without parachute money rely upon regular financial input from their boards after all.

[quote]how do you feel knowing that we probably actually have far less true working capital than previously thought or published,[/quote]

If you can substantiate this claim, I''d be worried.  Can you substantiate this claim ?

 

[Mello Yello 2,572]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]I must have missed Mr. Wyatts tenure as Governor of the Bank of England, was this before he became a Sports Journalist? [/quote]

Be careful, you wouldn''t want to be labelled arrogant... [;)]

[quote]how do you feel knowing that we probably actually have far less true working capital than previously thought or published, perhaps even less than some of the Clubs Mr. Wyatt elected to''analyse'' in his article? Still I guess we can always raise a few mill in January selling players like the other Clubs huh?[/quote]

[quote]Still since you have obviously read the part of the article concerning Watford, how comfy do you feel about our Majority shareholders now in light of what has happened with Mr. Simpson and the reasons for it happening?[/quote]

If it was £20 million for a cow shed in Hertfordshire, I''m not surprised that people weren''t falling over themselves to pay him that.  There are several going concerns within the football business at Carrow Road, arguably they have value.  D & Ms'' 16 million + 20 to cover debts will be a moving goalpost I''d imagine, on the basis of how badly they want out, and how good the buyers will be for the club.

I don''t know what Mr. Simpsons'' personal circumstances are, but I guess that if our lot are in the same position, they''ll just chuck a couple more million on the fire to keep the wolf from the door.  Nearly all championship clubs without parachute money rely upon regular financial input from their boards after all.

[quote]how do you feel knowing that we probably actually have far less true working capital than previously thought or published,[/quote]

If you can substantiate this claim, I''d be worried.  Can you substantiate this claim ?

 

[/quote]

You are Whack Ringworm - and I claim a free lift with Joe Ferrari to the next away game.....but the car''s not a Ferrari.....Joe is.

[blahblahblah 2]

If I''m Whack Ringworm (...again...) who does that make you ?

[Mello Yello 2,572]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]If I''m Whack Ringworm (...again...) who does that make you ?
[/quote]

Mello Yello.....of course!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]If I''m Whack Ringworm (...again...) who does that make you ?[/quote]

Mello Yello.....of course!

[/quote]So how come I don''t get to be blahblahblah ?

[lucky green trainers 0]

the £4m working cap as of 31 july mentioned by CN is surely a long time ago - given the change in the financial system and that turners have walked since...at the very least - assumptions made then bear no relation to the situation we ifnd ourselves in now...we know the turners awol left a black hole,,,that was filled by the maj shareholders (but fully or partially???)and as we know, the board will surely be factoring in the cost of a possible relegation and forecasting reductions in income for next season because of the economic downturn...it would be foolish not to,,,and in my view, these factors will probably prevent any cash being released from working capital for the playing side this tranny window...if it was me, i''d be keeping as much cash in reserve as possible to survive the downturn,,,so, imo - i can only see roedy selling players to raise funds before he buys - or through extra cash being loaned to the club by the directors - or through donations received by supporters...take your pick!!!