Time to accept that Wagner is doing a good job

[king canary 7,679]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's the thing, they also had a fair hiccup, but they also had new players coming in during the window - Sarmiento and Moore, and both have been reasonable contributors. On top of that, they bought Al-Hamadi who's bagged a couple. We got SvH in, and he's not really done much yet, and that's being generous.

Ipswich struggled, but then got some new players in and rediscovered form. Wagner needed players to come back from injury as he didn't get any that hit the ground running, and had that skid outside the transfer window so couldn't really get much fresh blood in either.

I agree that he could have set the team up more circumspect (indeed he did at home to Southampton, much to the irritation of many) during that period, but I'm simply saying that periods of poor form will happen when the best player's out.

It isn't about being more defensive like we did vs Southampton though.

It was simply about recognising that the strikers he had available at the time couldn't work in this 4-2-2-2 'box' midfield he liked to play with. So you adjust. There are plenty of other tactics between this and sitting 11 men behind the ball as we did v Southampton.

 

 

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

It isn't about being more defensive like we did vs Southampton though.

It was simply about recognising that the strikers he had available at the time couldn't work in this 4-2-2-2 'box' midfield he liked to play with. So you adjust. There are plenty of other tactics between this and sitting 11 men behind the ball as we did v Southampton.

 

 

Agree with the notion that the strikers didn't suit his preferred game, but the Southampton match was one we got a point from, and during a period when Southampton were absolutely flying, to boot. Yet they hardly created much of note against us - they did score but there were a couple of mistakes in that build-up, and even then we came back well, got the equaliser and could have pinched it at the death - as could they.

Wagner was doing a fair bit of experimenting - Sara went deeper, Placheta went left-back, Kenny went to left centre-half against Bristol (and that starting line-up got some very quizzical responses in that match thread then Idah hit the late, late winner), Sara then became an inverted winger and looked far more dangerous there than he did at #10.

If you're saying Wagner was unsuccessful in cobbling together a plan B then I agree with you until that Southampton game. However if you build a team that defends from the front like Wagner does and what Sargent gives you, then it's a real problem if the reserve strikers haven't got the same workrate Sargent has. Idah's not lazy, but he's not in Sargent's league, workwise.

[king canary 7,679]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agree with the notion that the strikers didn't suit his preferred game, but the Southampton match was one we got a point from, and during a period when Southampton were absolutely flying, to boot. Yet they hardly created much of note against us - they did score but there were a couple of mistakes in that build-up, and even then we came back well, got the equaliser and could have pinched it at the death - as could they.

Wagner was doing a fair bit of experimenting - Sara went deeper, Placheta went left-back, Kenny went to left centre-half against Bristol (and that starting line-up got some very quizzical responses in that match thread then Idah hit the late, late winner), Sara then became an inverted winger and looked far more dangerous there than he did at #10.

If you're saying Wagner was unsuccessful in cobbling together a plan B then I agree with you until that Southampton game. However if you build a team that defends from the front like Wagner does and what Sargent gives you, then it's a real problem if the reserve strikers haven't got the same workrate Sargent has. Idah's not lazy, but he's not in Sargent's league, workwise.

I'll have to disagree that the Southampton game resembled anything close to plan B. Playing in that manner is entirely unsustainable and I'm glad it was a once off.

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I'll have to disagree that the Southampton game resembled anything close to plan B. Playing in that manner is entirely unsustainable and I'm glad it was a once off.

I think we'll be agreeing to disagree there then. It might not be anywhere near as pretty to watch, but it got us a deserved point against a very much in-form team at the time whilst stifling their quick interplay. If we can't control the ball, control the space in which it is played.

[shefcanary 2,466]

Well, I think he has named his price for a play-off promotion celebration - 400 Beers for Mr Wagner, please!

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I'd also add that if someone truly believes that entire difference is due to Sargent then how much credit does the manager really deserve for the turnaround.

To me there is just as much mental gymnastics involved in saying Wagner is doing a great job if that form is apparently entirely down to Sargent being available. 

On that argument you could say similar about Farke, who was heavily dependent on Pukki and Buendia.

[king canary 7,679]

17 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

On that argument you could say similar about Farke, who was heavily dependent on Pukki and Buendia.

Sure, have at it I guess.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

7 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Neither did McNally or Webber when they came in, Webber bailing on Huddersfield before the job was finished.

Are people forgetting that Webber led the recruitment of his replacement?

Hogesar saying that Webber should get credit for leaving us with a squad capable of top 6, but apparently doesn't want to accept the Sporting Director that Webber left us with!

Oh come on - don't start getting silly - Hoggy has just said that he's unsure about Knapper at this point - I am too, but only because he's only been here a few months. 

Knapper has clearly done some good things since he's been here - by far and away the best of them is keeping faith with Wagner when it would have been the easiest thing in the world to get rid of him. Given our run of form since Knapper made that choice he's been massively vindicated.

On the other hand the decision to let Idah go and replace him with Sydney does look like a strange one that hasn't worked out. (and I'm not aftertiming because I said something along those lines at the time). 

[king canary 7,679]

7 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

On the other hand the decision to let Idah go and replace him with Sydney does look like a strange one that hasn't worked out. (and I'm not aftertiming because I said something along those lines at the time). 

I'd argue the decision to let Idah go makes some sense based on the fact it seems clear Idah wanted to go.

What makes less sense is signing an unfit player from a foreign league who was going to need some time to get up to speed. If we'd moved Idah on and replaced him with someone like a (urgh) Kieffer Moore or even Hwang (who I didn't love but at least knew how we played) it may have been a bit less of a downgrade.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

You have to see the arrival of Wagner in the context of the times:

Many were upset with Webber, his relationship with the fans, some poor recruitment after the second promotion

Many were upset with the sacking of Farke who had given us two brilliant promotions, sent out to the epl without weapons yet still espoused a beautiful style of football

Many were upset with the appointment of Smith who seemed to be more in love with his ex- than he was with us.

All in all Wagner stepped into a pretty toxic atmosphere compounded by the fact that want-away Weber was still hanging around the place. (To his credit - Webber's final signings were better than those of his middle period and the academy was beginning to produce improved results, but the damage had already been done)

Now Wagner is not a charismatic personality who is going to rouse the fans' passions. He is more a work quietly and diligently in the background with his players. That means he is not going to challenge fans' criticisms, certainly not in the style of Webber. And Knapper, like Wagner, seems to be a low-profile character, so there is not a great deal of explaining coming out of Carrow Road, which upsets a section of fans who feel they ought to be kept more in the loop. So a lot of the early criticism of Wagner is related to his style, his approach to his job, and his attempts to turn the negative things into positives without an accompanying explanation of why he is doing things in a certain way.

However, it was quite clear early on in his time with us, if you were observant, and is now almost universally recognised by the fans, that all the players have been very much together and on the same page as the manager. You see a very happy bunch of guys. You see no dissent. No cryptic social media messages, no sitting on the grass 'look-at-me' moments from disgruntled players. But you do see genuine affection between the players and a manager who is quietly going about his business - no doubt making some mistakes along the way but you feel humble enough to admit to those that matter where he can do better. And the upshot of this approach is that you can see individual improvement in almost every single player when compared to when they first joined us. You can see better set piece play. You can a greater mix of play compared to Farke, a greater flexibility in attacking play when compared to the days of Teemu Pukki. There's still areas that need improvement and much of that is down to the personnel involved but there's no doubt that Wagner is doing a good job and turning the team into a winning outfit.

Edited April 8 by Rock The Boat

[JonnyJonnyRowe 477]

4 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Oh come on - don't start getting silly - Hoggy has just said that he's unsure about Knapper at this point - I am too, but only because he's only been here a few months. 

Knapper has clearly done some good things since he's been here - by far and away the best of them is keeping faith with Wagner when it would have been the easiest thing in the world to get rid of him. Given our run of form since Knapper made that choice he's been massively vindicated.

On the other hand the decision to let Idah go and replace him with Sydney does look like a strange one that hasn't worked out. (and I'm not aftertiming because I said something along those lines at the time). 

On the other hand, blocking his move to Verona because the right to buy clause was only a few million and we wanted more also looks like a good decision, because his price has surely got to be £5m now.

Edited April 8 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

9 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

You have to see the arrival of Wagner in the context of the times:

Many were upset with Webber, his relationship with the fans, some poor recruitment after the second promotion

Many were upset with the sacking of Farke who had given us two brilliant promotions, sent out to the epl without weapons yet still espoused a beautiful style of football

Many were upset with the appointment of Smith who seemed to be more in love with his ex- than he was with us.

All in all Wagner stepped into a pretty toxic atmosphere compounded by the fact that want-away Weber was still hanging around the place. (To his credit - Webber's final signings were better than those of his middle period and the academy was beginning to produce improved results, but the damage had already been done)

Now Wagner is not a charismatic personality who is going to rouse the fans' passions. He is more a work quietly and diligently in the background with his players. That means he is not going to challenge fans' criticisms, certainly not in the style of Webber. And Knapper, like Wagner, seems to be a low-profile character, so there is not a great deal of explaining coming out of Carrow Road, which upsets a section of fans who feel they ought to be kept more in the loop. So a lot of the early criticism of Wagner is related to his style, his approach to his job, and his attempts to turn the negative things into positives without an accompanying explanation of why he is doing things in a certain way.

However, it was quite clear early on in his time with us, if you were observant, and is now almost universally recognised by the fans, that all the players have been very much together and on the same page as the manager. You see a very happy bunch of guys. You see no dissent. No cryptic social media messages, no sitting on the grass 'look-at-me' moments from disgruntled players. But you do see genuine affection between the players and a manager who is quietly going about his business - no doubt making some mistakes along the way but you feel humble enough to admit to those that matter where he can do better. And the upshot of this approach is that you can see individual improvement in almost every single player when compared to when they first joined us. You can see better set piece play. You can a greater mix of play compared to Farke, a greater flexibility in attacking play when compared to the days of Teemu Pukki. There's still areas that need improvement and much of that is down to the personnel involved but there's no doubt that Wagner is doing a good job and turning the team into a winning outfit.

That last paragraph is a good summary and I'd say the most obvious improvement in our game is our use of set-pieces, particularly corners. We've scored some pretty good ones - including that clever one against Leicester whereas before it was often lobbing them in and hoping the big man, usually Hanley, put a header over.

That is when Buendia - as much as we all loved him - wasn't actually ****ing allergic to beating the first man/near stick. Even then, we've scored a couple of near-post flicks this season, Gibson against Liverpool and Sorensen against Rotherham spring instantly to mind.

Edited April 9 by TheGunnShow

[Nuff Said 5,178]

40 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

That last paragraph is a good summary and I'd say the most obvious improvement in our game is our use of set-pieces, particularly corners. We've scored some pretty good ones - including that clever one against Leicester whereas before it was often lobbing them in and hoping the big man, usually Hanley, put a header over.

That is when Buendia - as much as we all loved him - wasn't actually ****ing allergic to beating the first man/near stick. Even then, we've scored a couple of near-post flicks this season, Gibson against Liverpool and Sorensen against Rotherham spring instantly to mind.

I think this (unintentionally) makes the point that often when we say Wagner, we mean the wider coaching team. Andy (although he seems to be Andrew now?) Hughes is recognised as the person who deserves praise for the set piece improvements. And I wonder how much difference Narcis Pelarch joining over the summer made. He’d been in the running for a couple of Head Coach roles (although didn’t get them) so must have brought significant additional experience. Impossible to tell from the outside though.

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

Time to accept he ****s it up away from home every ****ing time!!!!

[king canary 7,679]

On 08/04/2024 at 16:09, king canary said:

I'd also add that if someone truly believes that entire difference is due to Sargent then how much credit does the manager really deserve for the turnaround.

To me there is just as much mental gymnastics involved in saying Wagner is doing a great job if that form is apparently entirely down to Sargent being available. 

Maybe it was all Sargent? Literally can't do anything without him.

[Capt. Pants 4,284]

Anyone care to update?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Maybe it was all Sargent? Literally can't do anything without him.

No Pukki, no party… no Sargent, no soirée?

[Channon’s Windmill 335]

I wonder if you could Manager share? Wagner for home games, new man for away. 😏

[Virtual reality 718]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

Maybe it was all Sargent? Literally can't do anything without him.

It’s looking like Sargent for Wagner is the equivalent to Buendia for Farke isn’t it 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

1 minute ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

I wonder if you could Manager share? Wagner for home games, new man for away. 😏

Dean Smith was pretty good on away games.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,812]

Just now, Virtual reality said:

It’s looking like Sargent for Wagner is the equivalent to Buendia for Farke isn’t it 

Feels that way. Pretty sure when Buendia was at his best and got injured we went on an awful run of form.

 

And do I need to say how we played earlier this season without Sargent?

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

30 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No Pukki, no party… no Sargent, no soirée?

That is far too sophisticated for on here 😁

[Ken Hairy 3,781]

30 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Feels that way. Pretty sure when Buendia was at his best and got injured we went on an awful run of form.

 

And do I need to say how we played earlier this season without Sargent?

Wasn't there a season where we didn't win a single game without Buendia? 

[Conrad 179]

On 08/04/2024 at 16:09, king canary said:

I'd also add that if someone truly believes that entire difference is due to Sargent then how much credit does the manager really deserve for the turnaround.

To me there is just as much mental gymnastics involved in saying Wagner is doing a great job if that form is apparently entirely down to Sargent being available. 

I think that last night's performance is a good indication of how much we rely on Sargent. Without him, Wagner 'goes negative' and we, as a team, collapse. Unfortunately we have a fragile underbelly and have had for some time now. We need Sargent, more than any other player and perhaps also the manager.

[norfolkngood 1,091]

57 minutes ago, Conrad said:

I think that last night's performance is a good indication of how much we rely on Sargent. Without him, Wagner 'goes negative' and we, as a team, collapse. Unfortunately we have a fragile underbelly and have had for some time now. We need Sargent, more than any other player and perhaps also the manager.

i think that is my concern 

he has all season to find a solution to that problem what happens when Sarge is not in the team ,

he takes Sarge off and we lose all the pressing and energy to push other teams back ,

When Sarge was injured even with Idah here he could not adjust the tactic to suit had to wait until sarge came back 

[CANARYKING 644]

Crystal ball time. Come next August, we’re still in the Championship, Sergeant has gone, no decent replacement has been signed, cue ……………..

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,407]

3 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

Crystal ball time. Come next August, we’re still in the Championship, Sergeant has gone, no decent replacement has been signed, cue ……………..

That's cool, at least we'll still have Sargent leading the line