We bought experienced players to toughen the team..

[cambridgeshire canary 6,738]

So why did they all just fold like a house of cards the second a player was sent off? I thought we brought in a bunch of older players to add more experience and toughness to the side?

 

Oh and while I'm at it.. Is it just me or is Hanley just not captain material? I mean I said this a long time ago too but he never has come across like the type to lead or gather the players in any way. Did he even speak to any of the players yesterday? Did he come across like he was calming things down?

[shefcanary 2,410]

CC, see my post on the 10 man thread. Totally agree re. Hanley. He is shot. 

[scoop 38]

14 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So why did they all just fold like a house of cards the second a player was sent off? I thought we brought in a bunch of older players to add more experience and toughness to the side?

 

Oh and while I'm at it.. Is it just me or is Hanley just not captain material? I mean I said this a long time ago too but he never has come across like the type to lead or gather the players in any way. Did he even speak to any of the players yesterday? Did he come across like he was calming things down?

Exactly. Mentality weak. Would a Ferguson (for example) team collapse so dramatically? I never saw it.

That's down to the manager, that's his job after all. Leaders on the pitch is one thing but it's not their primary role, playing is, after all, you wouldn't have a carp player on the park no matter how strong a personality he had, otherwise get Holt/Malky etc back on the pitch if leaders is all you need. Hanley is not the answer either.

Inexcusable reaction to a common experience (going down to 10 men). That's on the manager.

[yellowrider120 765]

1 minute ago, shefcanary said:

CC, see my post on the 10 man thread. Totally agree re. Hanley. He is shot. 

Agreed. I have to say but I'm fed up with his countless 'buying' of free kicks as he goes sprawling in front of an opposition player at the slightest touch. This has been going on for years. Last night he got a kick on the ankle precisely because he tried that cheap shot again. What goes around comes around In afraid. 

[Mello Yello 2,296]

One last pay packet....then put out to grass at Frettenham's  Hill top farm horse sanctuary...."Clippety Clop".....

[Ulfotto 637]

3 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

CC, see my post on the 10 man thread. Totally agree re. Hanley. He is shot. 

I think that is harsh. In my opinion the signing  of Duffy and Batth points to the fact we didn’t expect Hanley back this season. He is massively ahead of schedule. I suspect after pre season next year he will back to where he was before. 

[shefcanary 2,410]

6 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I think that is harsh. In my opinion the signing  of Duffy and Batth points to the fact we didn’t expect Hanley back this season. He is massively ahead of schedule. I suspect after pre season next year he will back to where he was before. 

I said at the time of his injury and given hios age probably a career ending injury. Nothing I've seen so far has made me think otherwise. Whatever attributes he had before the injury he has lost. Boro knew this and targeted him with their passive press last night. I've just seen Wolfie say Hanley only showed anger against his team mate for getting unfairly sent off. He should have had enough experience to channel whatever anger he had into geeing up the rest of the team. Instead he went missing in the penalty box. 

Not harsh at all. Just being realistic. Hanley is shot.

[Google Bot 3,278]

Hanley & Gibson pairing feels like we're going backwards to me, there's too many bad memories with those two at the heart of the defence and they all come flooding back when you see goals conceded like last night.

I don't care who's better at passing, heading, positioning etc.  I just feel that the pairing is old ground that we need to be moving away from.  i.e. this is mentality thing primarily.

This is why i'm amazed at how continually overlooked Batth is.  It's an absolute joke what we've done with him since bringing him in to the club. There's no way he's any worse than a broken Hanley, and it at least freshens up the backline, which I thought was the aim start of season.

End of last season the whole squad became very comfortable with losing, and that's why we fold so easily the more of the old guard that feature.   Around the 80th minute I remember seeing Barnes trying to pump everyone up, and we need more of that.  It's so frustrating.

Edited March 7 by Google Bot

[norfolkngood 1,087]

Hanley for me is more a old fashioned Defender more a stopper clear it to row z  than a pass it around type ,

the whole back line needs more zest and a freshen up 

Mclean i feel is our best CB at the moment maybe because he is most comfortable on the ball 

 

 

[mannings bandy legs 389]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So why did they all just fold like a house of cards the second a player was sent off? I thought we brought in a bunch of older players to add more experience and toughness to the side?

 

Oh and while I'm at it.. Is it just me or is Hanley just not captain material? I mean I said this a long time ago too but he never has come across like the type to lead or gather the players in any way. Did he even speak to any of the players yesterday? Did he come across like he was calming things down?

Said this for a long while. Never see him get into the players. Perhaps because they're aware of his own limitations. As was obvious last night.

[Yobocop 1,099]

1 hour ago, yellowrider120 said:

Agreed. I have to say but I'm fed up with his countless 'buying' of free kicks as he goes sprawling in front of an opposition player at the slightest touch. This has been going on for years. Last night he got a kick on the ankle precisely because he tried that cheap shot again. What goes around comes around In afraid. 

Like 85-90% of experienced players then 

[shefcanary 2,410]

15 minutes ago, mannings bandy legs said:

Said this for a long while. Never see him get into the players. Perhaps because they're aware of his own limitations. As was obvious last night.

I've said this from when he first got appointed captain. And been slagged to high heaven on here for that. But plenty on here assure me he does get into players but is subtle about it. I just say to them, "he's pulled the wool over your eyes just like Howson did with Madley last night".

His normal reaction to his side letting a soft goal in. Picks himself up and gets in position for the kick off - no other reaction. 

When new players are shown around Colney - almost blanks them. 

He seems to be too much of an introvert. Not captain material in a crisis.

Edited March 7 by shefcanary

[Capt. Pants 4,250]

Unfortunately Hanley's achilles injury has done for him. His mobility has gone and he can't jump. 

Communication has never been his strong point and him, McLean and Gibson should have taken control after the red card. It was a shambles though with Middlesbrough allowed time and space to get crosses in.

It's really disappointing how mentally weak that lot is. 

[Yobocop 1,099]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So why did they all just fold like a house of cards the second a player was sent off? I thought we brought in a bunch of older players to add more experience and toughness to the side?

 

Oh and while I'm at it.. Is it just me or is Hanley just not captain material? I mean I said this a long time ago too but he never has come across like the type to lead or gather the players in any way. Did he even speak to any of the players yesterday? Did he come across like he was calming things down?

It’s not an exact science, it was early on in the game and as you (I would guess) saw it completely swung the game 

when we talk about mental toughness we think of the last 20 minutes where someone picks up a second yellow and the players are experienced enough the ‘sh***house’ their way to victory - not with 25 mins on the clock 

Grant Hanley is if nothing else a model professional and most definitely captain material, quite often it’s not what you see on the outside which makes the difference but you don’t know what he’s like at the training ground or in dressing room

I’m sure you don’t mean it (you never do) but it comes across as a bit disrespectful and points scoring again…correct me if I’m wrong. 

Edited March 7 by Yobocop

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

43 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I've said this from when he first got appointed captain. And been slagged to high heaven on here for that. But plenty on here assure me he does get into players but is subtle about it. I just say to them, "he's pulled the wool over your eyes just like Howson did with Madley last night".

His normal reaction to his side letting a soft goal in. Picks himself up and gets in position for the kick off - no other reaction. 

When new players are shown around Colney - almost blanks them. 

He seems to be too much of an introvert. Not captain material in a crisis.

That's going to need some extensive and tangible justification, please.

[yellowrider120 765]

1 hour ago, Yobocop said:

Like 85-90% of experienced players then 

Indeed but few persistently throw themselves to the ground as frequently as he does. Unfortunately last night his luck finally ran out.

[Jim Smith 2,322]

I do think there is something in the point about Hanley not being vocal enough on the pitch to be captain. I’ve long thought it’s one of the reasons why our defence does not appear to be well organised. They do not seem to communicate well with each other during the game. We don’t seem to have many that do. Barnes does but then he also gets embroiled in stupid spats and I’m not sure how much calm he is bringing to matters. 

I’ve always rated Hanley generally as a player although it must be said he’s been iffy since coming back from injury which I put down to match sharpness.

I must say though I look forward to next season and hopefully a refresh of the defensive line. The current pairing do not fill me with any confidence.

it’s questionable again from Wagner in my book that having deployed Kenny at CB so successfully a few games ago, he immediately moved him out again to accommodate Gibson. I feared that was what he would do and we’ve not looked as good since. Nunez is back now so I hope to see Kenny restored to the back 4 on Saturday.

 

[rock bus 854]

29 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

That's going to need some extensive and tangible justification, please.

Obviously we wont know what happens behind the scenes but I must admit I've remarked previously that on a number of the videos the club produces when a new player arrives Hanley does seem quite dismissive when introduced. Always seems to be in the canteen and he just looks up, grunts hello and gets on with eating. Maybe that's because he doesn't appreciate the set up introductions on videos but he certainly doesn't come across as friendly or welcoming. 

I cant be bothered to go back and find the videos as evidence but have commented on here before about it.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

Just now, rock bus said:

Obviously we wont know what happens behind the scenes but I must admit I've remarked previously that on a number of the videos the club produces when a new player arrives Hanley does seem quite dismissive when introduced. Always seems to be in the canteen and he just looks up, grunts hello and gets on with eating. Maybe that's because he doesn't appreciate the set up introductions on videos but he certainly doesn't come across as friendly or welcoming. 

I cant be bothered to go back and find the videos as evidence but have commented on here before about it.

You can't seriously consider short-form, club-produced player intro videos as being enough evidence to make judgements like that? As club captain, I'd imagine he's responsible for meeting new players and helping them integrate with the dressing room, and that process is hardly going to happen in front of the cameras. This is all conjecture based on very limited evidence.

[shefcanary 2,410]

56 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

That's going to need some extensive and tangible justification, please.

I've watched a number of videos when new players are shown around Colney by Webber. They get introduced to a lot of the players doing what they are doing. In the latest when Sid Van Hoiijdonk was shown around for instance, Hanley is sat in the canteen eating his lunch as Webber introduces SvH to him. Hanley continues to sit there, just quickly shakes ScH's hand without standing up and very quickly gets back to eating his lunch.

When I was introduced to new starters where I worked, no matter what I was doing or how critical a deadline I was facing, I stood up, shook hands etc, then engaged them in conversation. That's positive leadership IMO. As I was the leader responsible for this I would have been mortified if I saw the response that Hanley gave. Remaining focussed on what is in front of you is the sign of a very poor leader.  

It's just one of many poor traits he demonstrates. If he does counsel players in private in the back, I'd say that is someone who potentially undermines the corporate playbook. As a Captain what he does should very much be visible to all the other players. 

[hogesar 9,677]

Hanley has struggled since coming back from injury but then if Duffy was fit he wouldn't be playing nearly as much right now I suspect.

The mentality thing has been accused of every single one of our squads since the dawn of time (under Wagner, Smith, Farke, Neil, Hughton, maybe Lambert the only one who hasn't had that levelled), whenever you lose to 10 men, surrender a lead, go on a bad run or whatever.

I imagine every team is accused of it at some point.

We're one of the top teams for points gained from losing positions, for example.

Ultimately we made individual defensive errors that cost us the game. It happens. The fact this team recovered from such a dismal position earlier in the season with constant negativity and zero vocal support from the home crowd suggests they have something about them.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 minute ago, shefcanary said:

I've watched a number of videos when new players are shown around Colney by Webber. They get introduced to a lot of the players doing what they are doing. In the latest when Sid Van Hoiijdonk was shown around for instance, Hanley is sat in the canteen eating his lunch as Webber introduces SvH to him. Hanley continues to sit there, just quickly shakes ScH's hand without standing up and very quickly gets back to eating his lunch.

When I was introduced to new starters where I worked, no matter what I was doing or how critical a deadline I was facing, I stood up, shook hands etc, then engaged them in conversation. That's positive leadership IMO. As I was the leader responsible for this I would have been mortified if I saw the response that Hanley gave. Remaining focussed on what is in front of you is the sign of a very poor leader.  

It's just one of many poor traits he demonstrates. If he does counsel players in private in the back, I'd say that is someone who potentially undermines the corporate playbook. As a Captain what he does should very much be visible to all the other players. 

In broad terms I agree with this, but you're using an extremely limited snapshot of his behaviour and extrapolating upon that to make a confirmation-biased judgement on his suitability as a captain of a football team.

[shefcanary 2,410]

26 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

You can't seriously consider short-form, club-produced player intro videos as being enough evidence to make judgements like that? As club captain, I'd imagine he's responsible for meeting new players and helping them integrate with the dressing room, and that process is hardly going to happen in front of the cameras. This is all conjecture based on very limited evidence.

Well if me and @rock bus react the same way, then I'm damned sure everyone else around him does too. FTW, I appreciate what you say there is an alternative view on this, but given evidence from his on pitch leadership I seriously doubt what he does off camera is actually preparing his team mates for periods of stress on the pitch.

[hogesar 9,677]

Just now, shefcanary said:

Well if me and @rock bus react the same way, then I'm damned sure everyone else around him does too. FTW, I appreciate what you say there is an alternative view on this, but given evidence from his on pitch leadership I seriously doubt what he does off camera is actually preparing his team mates for periods of stress on the pitch.

Although as an alternative, all of Farke, Smith and Wagner have specifically mentioned how integral / important to the dressing room Hanley is.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Well if me and @rock bus react the same way, then I'm damned sure everyone else around him does too. FTW, I appreciate what you say there is an alternative view on this, but given evidence from his on pitch leadership I seriously doubt what he does off camera is actually preparing his team mates for periods of stress on the pitch.

You have watched short videos of him and leapt to conclusions based on confirmation bias. 'Everyone else around him', i.e. the people who matter, get a much richer and more informed view of his behaviours. You may be spot-on in your analysis, or you may be completely wide of the mark. In all likelihood, it's probably somewhere in between the two.

Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree here, as neither of us benefit from getting into a semantic tít-for-tat.

Edited March 7 by Feedthewolf
títs

[shefcanary 2,410]

8 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree here, as neither of us benefit from getting into a semantic tít-for-tat.

So am I. But I am more right than you! 😉 

And I have @rock bus to back me up. 🤭

Edited March 7 by shefcanary

[king canary 7,609]

Hanley has never been a good captain.

He may be good for the dressing room but he's not a leader on the pitch. Incredibly quiet to the point he sometimes appears like he isn't that bothered when we concede. 

We've seen this season we're better without him unfortunately. Nice guy but if he's here past the end of the season he should be 4th choice at best.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

2 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

So am I. But I am right than you! 😉 

And I have @rock bus to back me up. 🤭

@rock bus be like:

[yellowrider120 765]

15 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I've watched a number of videos when new players are shown around Colney by Webber. They get introduced to a lot of the players doing what they are doing. In the latest when Sid Van Hoiijdonk was shown around for instance, Hanley is sat in the canteen eating his lunch as Webber introduces SvH to him. Hanley continues to sit there, just quickly shakes ScH's hand without standing up and very quickly gets back to eating his lunch.

When I was introduced to new starters where I worked, no matter what I was doing or how critical a deadline I was facing, I stood up, shook hands etc, then engaged them in conversation. That's positive leadership IMO. As I was the leader responsible for this I would have been mortified if I saw the response that Hanley gave. Remaining focussed on what is in front of you is the sign of a very poor leader.  

It's just one of many poor traits he demonstrates. If he does counsel players in private in the back, I'd say that is someone who potentially undermines the corporate playbook. As a Captain what he does should very much be visible to all the other players. 

Agree with everything you say here. That 'greeting' of SVH in the video was dreadful. As a Captain he had a duty to 'put himself out' even if (privately) he was annoyed at having to pause filling his gob with breakfast!

[TIL 1010 4,750]

13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

 

We're one of the top teams for points gained from losing positions, for example.

 

I read this morning we have dropped 19 points from a winning position this season.