Wagner "clueless" for not playing Sara as a 10

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,769]

What we need him to probably be is a no.8 breaking forward from midfield, whilst being protected behind him with a proper screening defensive midfielder. Unfortunately the club have decided one is not needed this season so whenever he is playing deeper he is embroiled with defensive responslbilities because we have nobody at the club capabale of doing it alone i.e a Skipp  or Tettey.

Wherever we think Sara should be deployed, we can surely agree he shouldnt be operating on the edge of our own penalty box

[hogesar 9,677]

7 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

What we need him to probably be is a no.8 breaking forward from midfield, whilst being protected behind him with a proper screening defensive midfielder. Unfortunately the club have decided one is not needed this season so whenever he is playing deeper he is embroiled with defensive responslbilities because we have nobody at the club capabale of doing it alone i.e a Skipp  or Tettey.

Wherever we think Sara should be deployed, we can surely agree he shouldnt be operating on the edge of our own penalty box

I think that's probably fair.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

Would this be a good thread to mention that Michael and Delia were spot on when they recognised how massive the loss of Sainz, Sargent and Barnes was earlier this season.. 

[Capt. Pants 4,247]

Sara was fcuking terrible in that no.10 role. I feel for Nunez as he did OK but was the scapegoat. Sara was better in a deeper role and Barnes was a 100% better than Sara and arguably changed the game.

Wagner changed the game with his subs. Fassnacht again fcuking ****, Onel despite his limitations got us up the pitch.

If we could get £20m for Sara then I would take that all day long tbh. Not sure where we go with him.

 

 

 

 

[BroadstairsR 2,174]

I think Sara has been overplayed. Has he missed a game, either cup or league, this season? Has he ever been substituted?

I wouldn't know the answer to these questions, but feel that the answers might be telling either way. 

As for his best role. I couldn't really be certain, but what I'm sure of is that his impact upon a game has lessened a bit since its earlier season's levels, but is still a great player to have in any Championship side.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Or maybe he does know? Looked poor, uncomfortable and gave the ball away without creating anything in the 10 position. Looked far more comfortable deeper and joining in with play from deep (something several of us have commented on) which led to the first goal, of course.

Shout out to Barnes as well. He's been called some ridiculous stuff by our fans online but he was a gamechanger today.

In all seriousness I think there's a horses for courses scenario where Sara will sometimes play as a 10 and sometimes deeper. But so far, much prefer him being deeper (I think our fullbacks do too).

Making these conclusions after his first game there in many months is a bit silly and rash, just like it would be a bit silly if we wrote off Hooijdonk if his first start isn't great. 

I otherwise agree that he didn't have the best of games, but I liked the way we looked with McLean and Nunez together behind him and there's no way we should be leaving an £8m Brazilian on the bench, so the smart and logical thing to do would be to persevere and judge the change after several games.

It also doesn't do justice to how well Coventry defended today, and how well they defend most weeks, outside of the top 6 (they are now 7th) only one team has conceded fewer goals than them.

[hogesar 9,677]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Would this be a good thread to mention that Michael and Delia were spot on when they recognised how massive the loss of Sainz, Sargent and Barnes was earlier this season.. 

Yes, a good thread because they might now come after you instead of me 😍

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Agree on this. Sara is a no.8... Nunez as a 6 and no room for you know who... 

Still pretty sure Nunez was more of a number 10 in Chile, and I'm sure I remember Adam Brandon saying this.

[hogesar 9,677]

3 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Making these conclusions after his first game there in many months is a bit silly and rash, just like it would be a bit silly if we wrote off Hooijdonk if his first start isn't great. 

I otherwise agree that he didn't have the best of games, but I liked the way we looked with McLean and Nunez together behind him and there's no way we should be leaving an £8m Brazilian on the bench, so the smart and logical thing to do would be to persevere and judge the change after several games.

It also doesn't do justice to how well Coventry defended today, and how well they defend most weeks, outside of the top 6 (they are now 7th) only one team has conceded fewer goals than them.

I swear some of you don't watch our games. He literally played there against Leeds.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,821]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I've just re read my opening post and as you're a sensible poster, maybe you can tell me what was wrong with the "tone"? Is it because I defended Wagner a bit? I dont totally get it, I get some defensive posters have jumped at me for it but that happens regardless of what I say.

The post itself was OK, but the thread title was antagonistic, whether intentional or subconscious. It was clearly a dig at the moaners, which only serves to exacerbate the divide between them and us sensible folk.

😉

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Wagner deserves some credit on his name. Think back to some of the weaknesses we had under Farke and to some degree also, Smith.

1. When in the Champs, we often were an easy three points for the top teams - especially under Farke. Well, we've drawn against Southampton twice, beaten Hull twice, drawn and beaten Coventry, drew with Ipswich, were beaten by Leeds twice but only by one goal (and we were 2-0 up in one game), and swapped wins with West Brom. Looks to me like we're fighting them on better terms now.

2. Granted, this was in the Premier with Farke, but we rarely turned a game around from a losing position. We've been doing pretty well at fighting back this season. Topsy-turvy game at Southampton, then came back from a goal down to draw at ours when they were on a formidable unbeaten run. Went behind against a Coventry side that were unbeaten in some time, but we turned it right round. Went behind against Ipswich at their ground and they were also on a hot streak of form - and we turned that round too.

This team isn't as effective or as pretty to watch as a Farke team in full flow, but they fight well for the right to play.

3. We often said we never had a plan B. Then Wagner's got us playing some decent counter-attacking football when he actually had something approaching his strongest team available. Putting ten behind the ball isn't pretty but sometimes you really are better off just trying to keep the opponent in front of you and trying to pick off the errors.

Moreover, it's been clear in hindsight that he's been trying to make us a counter-attacking side. The experiment with Placheta at left-back was clearly to put some pace on a break, but his lack of defensive awareness in that Cardiff game showed it wasn't on. Then he decided to try out McLean at centre-half against Bristol City. Plenty were, shall we say, intrigued at that call, but many of us nowadays seem to think that was a good move as it enabled Kenny to come forward with the ball with some space and be able to pick better passes to get us started.

Yet here against Coventry, we didn't sit back at all. Faced with a similar team to Southampton in terms of being on a formidable unbeaten run (although no disrespect, Southampton are a stronger side than Coventry), he didn't put everyone behind the ball unlike that Southampton game and in the end we got a deserved win. He clearly does try to have a plan B or so to handle different opponents, and now he has many of his team back, we're seeing the flexibility his team can have.

Sure, it isn't as pretty as some of the stuff we watched under Farke. It probably couldn't ever be. Farke's shadow still unintentionally lingers long in the memories of many with their comparisons. 

This set of players do have a regular schnitzer in them. If they didn't, they wouldn't be playing for us. But they're an engaging set who are scrapping for the shirt, and I can't ask for more than that. Everything else is just aesthetics.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

I am starting to believe I know more about football than I thought.🤩 A point I made a while ago was that if you play Sara that far forward you miss out on his abiity to throw in those ranging defence-opening "quarterback" passes of his, such as the one Hwang ran onto, controlled and scored from. I have forgotten against whom.

But surely the broader point is that football tactics as so flexible now that even if, for example, Sara starts as a No. 10 and Nunez is the free man in front of the back four, there is no reason why they cannot swap over during the game.

Edited February 3 by PurpleCanary

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,821]

21 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

I otherwise agree that he didn't have the best of games, but I liked the way we looked with McLean and Nunez together behind him and there's no way we should be leaving an £8m Brazilian on the bench

This is a conundrum which isn't easily to solve, and I've been thinking about it for a few weeks. 

Both the Nuñez-McLean combo and the Nuñez-Sara one before Christmas when Kenny was in defence seem more fluid than the Sara-McLean duo.

Barnes is more effective than Sara as a ten. 

I certainly wouldn't drop McLean; he's an excellent player at this level and has showed this season how important he is.

I definitely wouldn't drop Sara either as he's arguably our best player. 

We have four players for three positions, and I guess it's just nice to have options so we play the three that suit the occasion and also allow us to rotate.

[Robert N. LiM 4,388]

22 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I am starting to believe I know more about football than I thought.🤩 A point I made a while ago was that if you play Sara that far forward you miss out on his abiity to throw in those ranging defence-opening "quarterback" passes of his, such as the one Hwang ran onto, controlled and shot from from. I have forgotten against whom.

Yes. And also he's much more difficult to pick up if he arrives in the box late, as he did for his excellent goal against Leeds (h), or even just late into the opposition's defensive third, as he did for our equaliser today.

I'd actually be interested to see if the Sarge and the Donk can provide a more youthful version of the 'double false 9' duo that Sarge and Barnes made work at the start of the season (and in the last 30 mins today). Like Barnes a lot more off the bench.

[Danke bitte 965]

25 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I am starting to believe I know more about football than I thought.🤩 A point I made a while ago was that if you play Sara that far forward you miss out on his abiity to throw in those ranging defence-opening "quarterback" passes of his, such as the one Hwang ran onto, controlled and shot from from. I have forgotten against whom.

But surely the broader point is that football tactics as so flexible now that even if, for example, Sara starts as a No. 10 and Nunez is the free man in front of the back four, there is no reason why they cannot swap over during the game.

Too sensible. I claim my 5vr that you’re a BBC Gladiator and I can get picked up by my dad on the way home back to Dereham.. c u Purpz (I live in North Loddon pssd Wlzshzm) 

[Mason 47 1,383]

I don't think Sara is particularly good at the '#10' but I believe that's because it plays as a #9.5. The way we have the role is more of a second striker as opposed to an advanced midfielder, which I think Sara would excel at. I'd still like a more intentional 3 in midfield, one sat behind a double act containing Sara, that allows him to occupy his preferred spaces.

However, credit to Wagner as Barnes looked sharp as nails when he came on- perhaps a side effect of playing reduced minutes? And linked up to great affect with Sara once dropped further back. Probably the best I've seen Barnes in a while.

There are roles for everyone going forward, I'd just like to see Sara playing a Sara role as opposed to a pseudo-Barnes role. 

[Petriix 2,840]

I think it's far more nuanced than you're making out @hogesar. I definitely wouldn't call Sara's position today a 'number 10', at least not the kind that I've been hoping for. For me, a number 10 operates in a fairly narrow, free role with the option of dropping deep or running beyond the attacking line. Think Wes Hoolahan in Lambert's diamond.

As @Mason 47 says, Wagner has him playing as a second striker which is nothing like his best position. A number 10 would generally be much deeper but have licence to break forward in a way that an 8 can't because the latter has much more defensive responsibility.

Played as a proper 10, Sara would be making those runs from deep and dropping into pockets of space to pick up the ball and playing those quarterback type passes. 

[hogesar 9,677]

6 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I think it's far more nuanced than you're making out @hogesar. I definitely wouldn't call Sara's position today a 'number 10', at least not the kind that I've been hoping for. For me, a number 10 operates in a fairly narrow, free role with the option of dropping deep or running beyond the attacking line. Think Wes Hoolahan in Lambert's diamond.

As @Mason 47 says, Wagner has him playing as a second striker which is nothing like his best position. A number 10 would generally be much deeper but have licence to break forward in a way that an 8 can't because the latter has much more defensive responsibility.

Played as a proper 10, Sara would be making those runs from deep and dropping into pockets of space to pick up the ball and playing those quarterback type passes. 

I thought he played a pretty conventional free 10 role, rarely high enough to be considered a second striker aside from their goal kicks when we pressed high and he acted as a two then.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Earlier in the season people were saying we were basically a one man team (Sara), yet through this amazing run of excellent form he probably isn't in our top 5 form players. Yet still the other players are "useless", Webber's recruitment was rubbish, Wagner doesn't know what he's doing yada yada. It beggars belief. Are these people going to be actively p!ssed off if we make the play offs?

As for Sara at no.10, I've said before when he plays deeper he spends most of the game facing forwards, at 10 he is often showing for the ball with his back to goal which isn't really his game. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

As I've said before, if anyone's a number 10 in this squad, it's Nunez. Sara's a box-to-box man. Gibbs certainly is.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

13 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Would this be a good thread to mention that Michael and Delia were spot on when they recognised how massive the loss of Sainz, Sargent and Barnes was earlier this season.. 

Yes agreed. Our injury problems have been horrific up until Xmas/New Year. One for the Wagner Out-ers to consider perhaps... these are also the same people that loved the Binners "progressive, young, inspirational" manager, that might want to also be reminded that they are now 19th in the form table since they picked up only one injury to Hirst and a suspension to Morsy, with one win in eight.

Edited February 4 by Worthy Nigelton

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

14 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

You surely can't mean the man who has just won our Player of the Month twice in a row?

Who is the better no. 8, KM or GS?

[BroadstairsR 2,174]

15 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Yes agreed. Our injury problems have been horrific up until Xmas/New Year. One for the Wagner Out-ers to consider perhaps... these are also the same people that loved the Binners "progressive, young, inspirational" manager, that might want to also be reminded that they are now 19th in the form table since they picked up only two injuries to Hirst and Morsy, with one win in eight.

I was one of those and they could be my words.

I have not changed my mind in that respect, and still do not see DW as our future.

He has redeemed himself somewhat, very true, but he now has at his disposal some genuinely good players. When he didn't have them all, he presided over some awful performances (Rotherham, Plymouth, Leeds spring to mind,) made bizarre selections and generally failed to see the wood for the trees at any moment during that season crippling bad run, which in itself was not his first at Carrow Road.

Despite all, McKenna is still be talked about in terms of ending up at Palace or better, while Hudderfield has been mentioned as a destination for Wagner. 

Edited February 4 by BroadstairsR

[Monty13 2,235]

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

I thought he played a pretty conventional free 10 role, rarely high enough to be considered a second striker aside from their goal kicks when we pressed high and he acted as a two then.

How does that compare to Sargents?

[Monty13 2,235]

13 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Would this be a good thread to mention that Michael and Delia were spot on when they recognised how massive the loss of Sainz, Sargent and Barnes was earlier this season.. 

It was massive, you (and we) missed Gunn as well. But it wasn’t enough justification for getting just 7pts over an 11 game period, that was the crux.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

33 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I was one of those and they could be my words.

I have not changed my mind in that respect, and still do not see DW as our future.

He has redeemed himself somewhat, very true, but he now has at his disposal some genuinely good players. When he didn't have them all, he presided over some awful performances (Rotherham, Plymouth, Leeds spring to mind,) made bizarre selections and generally failed to see the wood for the trees at any moment during that season crippling bad run, which in itself was not his first at Carrow Road.

Despite all, McKenna is still be talked about in terms of ending up at Palace or better, while Hudderfield has been mentioned as a destination for Wagner. 

Swap Sargent's injury for Hirst's and McBinna is 19th and Wagner is around 5th/4th. Let's also not forget Wagner has already managed in the PL and kept Huddersfield up. Thus far, with only one injury, the Championship looks a bridge too far for McBinna. Having said all that, I think McBinna is a good manager, whether he's the second coming or not, he still has it all to prove on that front.

Edited February 4 by Worthy Nigelton

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,821]

1 hour ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Who is the better no. 8, KM or GS?

Sara. 

But number eight isn't the only position on the pitch.

[BigFish 1,988]

Lot of pretty dated thinking on here on this, as there is in the CDM arguments. The defence that he didn't actually play as a 10 is pretty valid, but then the way we play doesn't really fit the classic 10 role - a striker, dropping between the lines to play in other players because that is what all our strikers are asked to do. There is no space there.

That doesn't negate the evidenece that Sara is most effective with the ball facing up the pitch, as opposed to on the half-turn or receiving back to goal. Advanced he is less effective.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,821]

8 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Lot of pretty dated thinking on here on this, as there is in the CDM arguments. The defence that he didn't actually play as a 10 is pretty valid, but then the way we play doesn't really fit the classic 10 role - a striker, dropping between the lines to play in other players because that is what all our strikers are asked to do. There is no space there.

That doesn't negate the evidenece that Sara is most effective with the ball facing up the pitch, as opposed to on the half-turn or receiving back to goal. Advanced he is less effective.

You made a similar post just before the Leeds match, and I backed it up with the theory that players nowadays have functions rather than positions. The same applies here.

[hogesar 9,677]

4 hours ago, Monty13 said:

How does that compare to Sargents?

Very good question! We should have both side by side so, Sara:

Sargent: