Chris Sutton and the white flag

[Monty13 2,252]

54 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

If we'd have "had a go" then, then how would it have been much of a difference from our plan A, especially if we use the away game against Southampton as a guide? The thing that was good here was that we actually had a plan B that nullified some of our recent problems (except for a bit more control of midfield) and generally kept a very confident, fluid Southampton side in front of our defence.

Sutton's demonstrated why he was a failure at Lincoln and hasn't gone back into FL management since. His argument, IMO, did not adequately take the following into account:

1. Southampton's exceptional form, and it did not also seem to consider the psychological states of the players within the teams.

2. That even though they lost a few players upon relegation, they were still able to keep many of their squad.

3. The myriad weaknesses recent Norwich sides have had, especially defensively. Until recently, we had the second-worst defensive record in the league. I don't think it's unreasonable for any manager to look at tightening up under those circumstances whilst sacrificing entertainment a bit.

His whole argument rested on an unwritten, overly idealistic notion that at home you should always try to get on the front foot regardless of situation. Personally, I'd rather pick the approach that's most likely to get a point or three depending on the nature of the challenges the other team pose us, and some involve trying to press them into errors, others involve hitting on the break. Wagner got it wrong for Millwall, but he got it close to right with this.

For all their probing, Southampton very rarely turned us around. They scored on one of the very few occasions they did, and even then it needed Hanley to get his feet mixed up on the clearance. Apart from that brilliant flick to set Stephens up to hit the bar, such a confident team didn't create much else.

If Sutton wants to get back on the management bandwagon then his article reveals, at least in my opinion, that he needs to learn sharpish that there are occasions where the ends justify the means regardless of idealism. This was one, and the result (and indeed the fact that they came back) IMO justifies it.

Again think we are just going round in circles, that wasn’t the whole argument IMO. I read his column and it was pretty clear to me it wasn’t really an indictment of the game itself but what it stood for in the context of Norwich as a club.

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

1 hour ago, Virtual reality said:

It was a setup for David Wagners interests and a better result for David Wagner than it was for Norwich City. 

And this the problem we are going to have over the coming weeks and months whilst Knapper decides what he wants to do with his/NCFC strategy. I dearly hope yesterday wasn't the sign of things to come but we have been equally negative in recent away games, including the Binners, it's just that Southampton's rather monotinous possession made it look even worse. This cannot be all about Wagner, and stinking the place out in our own backyard isn't getting the fans onboard with anything that Knapper wants to do.

There is clearly a big share of the fanbase that does not like Wagner and his style of play and even yesterday immediately on final there was a stampede to get out the stadium. Things aren't right and we are miles from a long-term solution. 

[The Real Buh 3,480]

42 minutes ago, tea total said:

I honestly understand your anger and frustration at where we are now but a little realism and how best to get us out of this mess is all I`m saying. I found it a difficult watch at times yesterday considering how we played a couple of seasons ago (and at the start of this season) but the game plan worked and we got a point against a good Championship side. It`s about playing to your strengths and getting something (preferably a win) from games. Call it what you want but if we found that defending deeper and playing on the break gave us a better chance of staying in the Premier League, if we ever got there, would you accept that? Not saying it`s right but if it works then why not? It worked for Leicester! 

 

It’s desperation and self preservation from a manager who’s hanging on by his fingernails. It’s unacceptable and the fact that some fans accept it says a lot about them tbh.

[my2ndteam 0]

Agree to a point with the article and don’t want to watch such tactics, particularly at home. However, I can understand why they were employed yesterday and with success. Russel Martin talks about being in ‘total control’ but possession doesn’t win matches. Expected goals yesterday was tied at 1.77 each and if you watch the highlights ‘good opportunity to score’ was pretty even (they had more shots but many were of no threat at all) Yes they kept the ball for long periods but  possession doesn’t win games 

[shefcanary 2,460]

It sounds like quite a few here would be happy with the way Italian sides set up and played in the late 70's / early 80's.

Catenaccio, or something like that.

All good until it hit the clubs in the pocket - crowds dwindled, TV lost interest; the national side were the only thing that saved Serie A, at least the national side played with a bit of freedom. Probably what Southgate would prefer in England at the moment.

Each to their own.

[hogesar 9,745]

49 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

On another thread, it said the XgA was still very high, despite us trying to stop this! Given the so called threat of Armstrong and Adams, you'd have thought with that stat they'd have got a bagful of goals - each! But they have not really done anything of note in goal scoring terms in recent years, both have gone right off the boil. It is so frustrating that people think they are a good set of individual players - they are not. They are just a good bunch of well coached players, playing to an identity and style and inspired by a good upcoming coach. Exactly what Norwich could be without the current Head Coach. I have been patient, but NYD's set-up ended it for me. Wagner has to go.

We did, though. I'll address @repman because if anyone had the xGA stats it'd be him! 🙂

Of course, when you surrender 75% of possession to a team that moves the ball well, it's not surprising to see a high xGA.

The difference though, is it was mostly made up of loads of very unlikely-to-score shots building up that xG. 

When you look at the best chances created you get a better idea:

 

0.74xG for Armstrong - the goal he scored.

0.48 xG for Sainz which we didn't score.

Then both us and southampton had a chance with 0.22 xG

After that everything was a 0.15 or considerably under. So in that sense the tactic worked. If you compared it even the Millwall game, against a much lesser side, they created 0.86, 0.48, 0.30 chances against us vs our best 0.14.

More relevant, last time we played Southampton we conceded 3.7 xGA which was considerably higher than this game. We scored 4 from an xG of 2 so were quite fortunate.

The easiest comparison is when we gave it a bit of a go at home to Leicester and conceded a 0.85 chance (goal) a 0.79 chance (goal) and a 0.3 chance (not a goal). 

Basically, the tactic worked in that it frustrated them into taking shots from silly locations resulting in lots of 0.08xG chances that were easily dealt with blocked or otherwise. 

 

 

 

[shefcanary 2,460]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

We did, though. I'll address @repman because if anyone had the xGA stats it'd be him! 🙂

Of course, when you surrender 75% of possession to a team that moves the ball well, it's not surprising to see a high xGA.

The difference though, is it was mostly made up of loads of very unlikely-to-score shots building up that xG. 

When you look at the best chances created you get a better idea:

 

0.74xG for Armstrong - the goal he scored.

0.48 xG for Sainz which we didn't score.

Then both us and southampton had a chance with 0.22 xG

After that everything was a 0.15 or considerably under. So in that sense the tactic worked. If you compared it even the Millwall game, against a much lesser side, they created 0.86, 0.48, 0.30 chances against us vs our best 0.14.

More relevant, last time we played Southampton we conceded 3.7 xGA which was considerably higher than this game. We scored 4 from an xG of 2 so were quite fortunate.

The easiest comparison is when we gave it a bit of a go at home to Leicester and conceded a 0.85 chance (goal) a 0.79 chance (goal) and a 0.3 chance (not a goal). 

Basically, the tactic worked in that it frustrated them into taking shots from silly locations resulting in lots of 0.08xG chances that were easily dealt with blocked or otherwise. 

Or the opposition were just not good enough? I'm still erring on that if I'm honest. Southampton were nothing to be so frit of. We threw away the change to positively go for it.

2024 - the year of Positivity!

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Or the opposition were just not good enough? I'm still erring on that if I'm honest. Southampton were nothing to be so frit of. We threw away the change to positively go for it.

2024 - the year of Positivity!

I really didn't think they were anything special. Yes lots of possession but equally a lot of side to side easy passes. Gunn doesn't really have a lot to do - he was probably busier against Millwall. A Southampton perspective from bbc...

BBC Radio Solent's sports editor Adam Blackmore has been discussing the Saints dropping two points against Norwich City on the Goin' Home With Adam and Jo podcast: "Let's talk about why Southampton didn't put Norwich to bed. Usually there's many reasons like bad finishing, not enough good play in the final third, or not enough entrances into the penalty area.

"In my mind, they lack a little bit of quality still in certain areas or a player with a killer instinct who can just do something that's just a little bit too classy for the opponent.

"Saints did a lot of good things but, ultimately, I don't think they tested Gunn enough. Is that because of the way Saints play or is it because of the players not shooting enough?"

 

[Google Bot 3,316]

5 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

It’s unacceptable and the fact that some fans accept it says a lot about them tbh.

I think a lot of people just like Wagner as a person and still have faith in the guy.  I'd probably be ranting too if I didn't feel some kind of empathy towards him as a person.  But I do very much like him and the rapport he's built up with the playing squad.

Where we are is more down to recruitment and very poor management of players who are the mutts nutts one season, and then pushed out on loan the next.  And I feel it's this emperors new clothes approach that has caused the most damage as to our on-field identity and skillset.

I'm accepting that we've got to allow a period for Knapper to learn the club, what we can and can't do as a club, and also for Wagner to get at least the core set of players back from injury.   I'm looking forward to a much better second half of the season personally I really don't know what there is to be so down or fearful about, we've just come out of the crappy period surely?

[Worthy Nigelton 1,066]

1 hour ago, City Stand Ultra said:

Didnt park the bus??

We had 3 shots and they  had 17 by the time they scored 

We had 0 corners they had 10 by the time they scored

They has 72% possession and  we have 28% by time they scored

What level of statistical and actual domination do you need a team to have before you would classify it as parking the bus?

I know and yesterday was parking a fleet of buses....

 

They were the better team for sure, but that was nothing like the Hughton era tactically speaking. We did try to break but we don't have very good players.

[canarydan23 4,060]

37 minutes ago, hogesar said:

More relevant, last time we played Southampton we conceded 3.7 xGA which was considerably higher than this game. We scored 4 from an xG of 2 so were quite fortunate.

This is the problem with these stats. There is absolutely no way we were quite fortunate to get a point at St Mary's. We were massively unfortunate not to get all three, denied only by rank officiating.

Looking at it holisticly rather than as a single game in isolation, it is embarrassing and depressing that we adopted that approach at home in the Championship. It should never have arrived at the point where anyone deemed it necessary, but we're here because the club has been so woefully mismanaged for years.

[Capt. Pants 4,277]

I happened to be listening to 606 yesterday when the caller, the subject of another thread, was also critical of our performance. Sutton, also on 606, admitted he was not at the game but had some sympathy for the subdued atmosphere although didn't really comment. The caller obviously triggered him a bit as it was a very interesting viewpoint from the caller who was supposedly a neutral Pompey fan.

[Bradwell canary 109]

Brilliant comments by Chris. No one could have summed up the game better.

He sees it as 26,000 see it in the ground.

Those sitting in the directors box can’t.

By the way is Zoe Webber still having any say in how our club is run?

[nutty nigel 7,630]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Or the opposition were just not good enough? I'm still erring on that if I'm honest. Southampton were nothing to be so frit of. We threw away the change to positively go for it.

2024 - the year of Positivity!

Lets have some of that positivity then.

First we had months of pantwetting about the binners game. About how we'd be trounced and it would see the end of Wagner. But the pantwetters sloped off with their wet tails between their legs. Following that came the same level of pantwetting about the Saints nailing down Wagner's coffin with the same end result.

While he's getting these results it's unlikely the change will be made. Especially with the players building a siege mentality with him.

If Wagner gets through January could your year of positivity finally kick in?

 

 

Edited January 2 by nutty nigel

[hogesar 9,745]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Or the opposition were just not good enough? I'm still erring on that if I'm honest. Southampton were nothing to be so frit of. We threw away the change to positively go for it.

2024 - the year of Positivity!

Their 18 game unbeaten run suggests they are good enough as does their starting 11 if you look at the evidence and widely held opinions on them.

We have seen us positively go for it against the better teams.

[hogesar 9,745]

46 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

This is the problem with these stats. There is absolutely no way we were quite fortunate to get a point at St Mary's. We were massively unfortunate not to get all three, denied only by rank officiating.

Looking at it holisticly rather than as a single game in isolation, it is embarrassing and depressing that we adopted that approach at home in the Championship. It should never have arrived at the point where anyone deemed it necessary, but we're here because the club has been so woefully mismanaged for years.

I agree, on the premise that 1.6ish of their xG were two pens given by the diabolical ref that we had yesterday.

And I agree with your holistic summary. But I have been speaking about it on a single game basis. And on that basis I was happy to see us set up tactically different as opposed to exactly the same (my main criticism of Wagner during that terrible run when we did have injuries).

[nutty nigel 7,630]

What is the xg of a disallowed goal?

 

[hogesar 9,745]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

What is the xg of a disallowed goal?

 

Zero. So McCallums goal and of course the potential penalty would record a fat 0

[S_81 861]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

Chris Sutton is a clickbait journalist and nothing more so of course he's gone ridiculously over the top in his assessment.

That game in isolation isn't a problem. It is if it becomes the norm though.

In terms of poor performances that game isn’t in isolation though. We’ve got about a season’s worth of them under Wagner now in total. 

[S_81 861]

52 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I happened to be listening to 606 yesterday when the caller, the subject of another thread, was also critical of our performance. Sutton, also on 606, admitted he was not at the game but had some sympathy for the subdued atmosphere although didn't really comment. The caller obviously triggered him a bit as it was a very interesting viewpoint from the caller who was supposedly a neutral Pompey fan.

Delia will be upset re the latter. They’re normally always upbeat. 

[nutty nigel 7,630]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Zero. So McCallums goal and of course the potential penalty would record a fat 0

Thanks Hoggy.

 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,040]

I agree with the bulk of what Chris Sutton has written.

Personally would not go as far a embarrassing though, as a Norwich fan for the last 45 years or so I have been much more embarrassed after games.

Wagner has to go, no doubt about that but if you are jumping on the "embarrassed bus" that is your prerogative, I won't be joining you as I have seen far more embarrassing displays than that.......

[The Real Buh 3,480]

4 minutes ago, S_81 said:

Delia will be upset re the latter. They’re normally always upbeat. 

The dirty little secret is slipping out

for commentators it will be clickable, marketable. This is how this ends, Delia embarrassed in the national media and forced to put out some sort of abdication speech.

[Sheva 124]

Only just read Chris Suttons comments and totally agree with them.

Firstly he’s one of the clubs finest ever players, whether as a defender or main striker everything he did was with 100% determination & positively. Who can forget going to Inter with a totally weakened side and taking the game to them! How the hell have we slipped to this **** level of playing for a draw at home in Div 2. .. and why are the fans excepting it, it’s not just the team that needs shaking up by the sounds of it. It won’t get better until you complain and not sit quietly, that’s not being a good supporter, bring it to a head, don’t except trash for good money from super rich under performers. - £ 30,000 per week!, even when not working, doesn’t that make you a little upset?…. Forbes, Stringer, Peters didn’t get £300 but you did get their 100% commitment every single minute. They wouldn’t like or except this, I’m sure.

It’s obvious that the club is full of free loaders, to afraid to rock the boat. The Webber’s should have been shown the door long before now, the majority share holders risk being ridiculed and despised, they need to retire away asap.

Needs saying, the clubs becoming an embarrassment to the ‘Fine City’.
 

 

[nutty nigel 7,630]

If you listen to Absentassio it's not 'the club' it's 'the franchise' or 'the organisation'. Get with it! It works in baseball...

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by nutty nigel
💛⚾💚

[kingsway 94]

For a start it wasn't that embarrassing, their have been much more embarrassing games for Norwich at Carrow Road over the years, particularly quite a few home games at the back end of last season when Norwich were way to easy to beat. Even this season, the Blackburn game was painful to watch where you could have built a motorway through the Norwich midfield and backline seeing how easy it was to get behind the Norwich lines that day!

 

Yes the "park the Bus and catch them on the break" game plan against Southampton  was not pretty on the eye, certainly not for the purists but despite the many reservations about it,  in reality it worked against a side unbeaten in how many games and we wern't far of winning the game. I'm sure most Norwich fans would have taken a 1-1 draw before the game cause like myself, I'm sure many Norwich fans were expecting a defeat.

 

Anyhow Norwich have been one of the worst defensive sides in the Division this season and have a long history of poor defensive records so for myself personally I found the teams defensive solidity/ hard to beat nature the other day oddly refreshing despite the lack of attacking intent. When our best stiker Sargeant came on the plan was even more effective!

 

I get where Chris Sutton was coming from but you have to remember he played for Norwich when the team at times was one of the best in the Country and he never played out of the top flight in his career. The current Norwich team are a long way from those halycon days and its about making the best of what you've got!

[shefcanary 2,460]

17 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Lets have some of that positivity then.

First we had months of pantwetting about the binners game. About how we'd be trounced and it would see the end of Wagner. But the pantwetters sloped off with their wet tails between their legs. Following that came the same level of pantwetting about the Saints nailing down Wagner's coffin with the same end result.

While he's getting these results it's unlikely the change will be made. Especially with the players building a siege mentality with him.

If Wagner gets through January could your year of positivity finally kick in?

 

 

We're still only 5 points off play-offs. 

Positivity.

[TIL 1010 4,797]

3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

We're still only 5 points off play-offs. 

Positivity.

Based on Huddersfield in the 2017 play offs don't get your hopes up on positivity.

Semi final v Sheffield Wednesday Home leg 0-0. Away leg 1-1 courtesy of an own goal and going through to the final on penalties.

Final v Reading 0-0 after extra time and getting to the PL on penalties.

The end result of promotion was achieved but hardly with on the front foot attacking football.

[essex canary 506]

5 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Based on Huddersfield in the 2017 play offs don't get your hopes up on positivity.

Semi final v Sheffield Wednesday Home leg 0-0. Away leg 1-1 courtesy of an own goal and going through to the final on penalties.

Final v Reading 0-0 after extra time and getting to the PL on penalties.

The end result of promotion was achieved but hardly with on the front foot attacking football.

A good outcome? 

Remember you were somewhat positive about this guy not too long ago.

[TIL 1010 4,797]

1 minute ago, essex canary said:

A good outcome? 

Remember you were somewhat positive about this guy not too long ago.

I was when he first arrived but now he has had time to impose himself on the club i am sadly very disappointed with what Wagner says and does.