Stadia development

[Greavsy 2,417]

12 minutes ago, Darth Vadis said:

Ben Kensell stated a few years ago we were able to purchase two? parcels of land behind the City & Barclay stands for something like £500k? Cannot remember the exact figures

Correct, although whilst low the figures were never officially disclosed iirc. 

[Mr.Carrow 378]

2 hours ago, RobJames said:

The problem there is those waiting for a season ticket likely be casuals. When the club was in the PL there was no problem in selling restricted view seats. Underpinning the blindingly obvious flaw in the thinking (?) of some on here.

There is no guarantee of where we will be in 2 seasons ahead, never mind 20 years hence.

Clubs like Liverpool are part of a closed shop that pretty much guarantees them PL/ European football. They are like a pub opening the back room to cope with demand on a match day. We are opening the back room without knowing what day of the week it is

The point is there is many times the demand for decent seats as for rubbish ones. In terms of percentage seats sold we've been one of the top clubs in the country outside the big six for about 15 years. That's because virtually every club struggles to sell single and restricted view seats. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Mr.Carrow

[astro 364]

Something is going to have to happen fairly soon as the City stand is now in a very poor state of repair. I don’t think it’s seen much repair work for several years, and that can only go on so long before a major refurbishment has to take place. Sometimes refurb can cost nearly as much as rebuild.

[essex canary 497]

38 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The point is there is many times the demand for decent seats as for rubbish ones. In terms of percentage seats sold we've been one of the top clubs in the country outside the big six for about 15 years. That's because virtually every club struggles to sell single and restricted view seats. 

Which is doubtless why casual attendees will borrow from season ticket holders and club memberships have no value other than the away one for the right to go to Portaloo Road for the local derby. 

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

8 hours ago, astro said:

Something is going to have to happen fairly soon as the City stand is now in a very poor state of repair. I don’t think it’s seen much repair work for several years, and that can only go on so long before a major refurbishment has to take place. Sometimes refurb can cost nearly as much as rebuild.

Yes, and with safe-standing areas now allowed and an apparent demand for them, a rebuild could include a decent portion for this.

I believe when Birmingham City had to embark upon re-build of two of their stands (didn't they initially plan a refurbishment of them but then found asbestos?) they have taken the opportunity to integrate some safe-standing areas.

This would be a more economical way of City providing this as a much cheaper option than converting areas of the other three stands. You never know, we might even get a grant from the Premier League Stadium Fund.

Edited December 29, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Greavsy 2,417]

33 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

You never know, we might even get a grant from the Premier League Stadium Fund

Do the EPL give grants to EFL clubs?

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

https://premierleaguestadiumfund.co.uk/

[Yobocop 1,105]

15 hours ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

It's a little bit mischievous to suggest that plans could have been drawn up, planning application made, environmental and other concerns explored, contractors considered and chosen and the extension built all within the time we were going through the pandemic. Also the fact that there were severe supply chain problems and rapidly rising prices of materials.

Then how on earth did LTFC demolish the bobbers stand and rebuild it within 3 months? 

genuine question 

[dylanisabaddog 4,952]

There is very little point in extending Carrow Road if it is going to be under water by 2050

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/06/19/quarter-english-football-league-grounds-risk-flooding-within/

It is also unlikely that it's affordable with recent interest rate changes but it's also doubtful lenders would risk it with the flood risk involved. 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,423]

1 hour ago, Yobocop said:

Then how on earth did LTFC demolish the bobbers stand and rebuild it within 3 months? 

genuine question 

I suggest that the plans were drawn up  planning approved, contractors were awarded and everything else was in place prior to pushing the button at the end of the season.

[essex canary 497]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

There is very little point in extending Carrow Road if it is going to be under water by 2050

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/06/19/quarter-english-football-league-grounds-risk-flooding-within/

It is also unlikely that it's affordable with recent interest rate changes but it's also doubtful lenders would risk it with the flood risk involved. 

That's settled then. New stadium required. Where are the plans?

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,423]

25 minutes ago, essex canary said:

That's settled then. New stadium required. Where are the plans?

I suspect that is in the back of their minds somewhere.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,423]

Vaguely interesting story from 4 years ago about the purchase of the land.

https://www.coliseum-online.com/wings-to-canaries-stadium-expansion-plan/

 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,423]

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

No! I hear you cry, Carrow Road is our spiritual home, but for me it's not the stadium I enjoyed my most memorable Norwich City moments in, from the mid seventies to maybe the mid nineties, swaying and singing in the Barclay and also the South Stand and even the River End. This was my spiritual home.

I find the stadium today fairly soulless, the lack of an atmosphere in no small way due to all seating being introduced (don't be fooled into thinking safe standing will reverse this).

So, I've waffled, how do others feel. Do people have the same feeling I had back in the good old days about the ground now? I know the football hasn't been great, I'm not using that as a stick.

[sonyc 5,539]

27 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

No! I hear you cry, Carrow Road is our spiritual home, but for me it's not the stadium I enjoyed my most memorable Norwich City moments in, from the mid seventies to maybe the mid nineties, swaying and singing in the Barclay and also the South Stand and even the River End. This was my spiritual home.

I find the stadium today fairly soulless, the lack of an atmosphere in no small way due to all seating being introduced (don't be fooled into thinking safe standing will reverse this).

So, I've waffled, how do others feel. Do people have the same feeling I had back in the good old days about the ground now? I know the football hasn't been great, I'm not using that as a stick.

It's the team (and the supporters) that really give a ground a soul. Otherwise, it's just a sport facility. The changes made like the new stands at nearly all grounds has made them feel very different. And I'm a conservative at heart about buildings! Memories are just that aren't they? They feel real to us because we were part of a particular team or an era or a campaign - even a performance. Those memories live on and make a place feel hallowed. We left the Nest and I'm sure we could leave Carrow Road. As long as the new ground could feel part of a wider community then I wouldn't worry. Especially if it meant a new era coupled with new investment. And as stated, again, I'm a traditionalist in my bones.  Going to say Hull's comparatively new stadium also feels like it's their home (Bootham Crescent was awful). The same with Huddersfield. And so on. 

The one that stands out for me a bit differently is Bradford's Valley Parade. When I couldn't watch us (because of being unable to travel back then) I used to see Bradford instead (but try and read the Sunday papers report about us) and having been at the Bradford fire, the place even though now redeveloped still has a resonance about it. But that is because of a national tragedy. Something that was 'outside' of the football if you get my meaning. And I've watched Norwich play Bradford many times with our own fans.

It's the football that matters more. Ultimately.

All this said, I would be very, very sad to move from Carra. And I do agree with you that the surrounding area being redeveloped with the shopping centre and flats  has resulted in a loss of soul....except maybe less for the Barclay. I have many memories of the walk back to the city along the river and the bridges. Those walks though were special because of the crowds.... and the result! It's people that make football places.

If you'd asked about whether a beautiful building creates a feeling then I would definitely be on the environmental determinist 'continuum'! Just far less so about football grounds.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by sonyc

[dylanisabaddog 4,952]

20 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

No! I hear you cry, Carrow Road is our spiritual home, but for me it's not the stadium I enjoyed my most memorable Norwich City moments in, from the mid seventies to maybe the mid nineties, swaying and singing in the Barclay and also the South Stand and even the River End. This was my spiritual home.

I find the stadium today fairly soulless, the lack of an atmosphere in no small way due to all seating being introduced (don't be fooled into thinking safe standing will reverse this).

So, I've waffled, how do others feel. Do people have the same feeling I had back in the good old days about the ground now? I know the football hasn't been great, I'm not using that as a stick.

We should have done it years ago but it's too late now. The land Carrow Road is built on has probably become unsaleable due to climate change predictions. Unless of course Norfolk County Council gets its finger out and creates some huge flood plains outside the City. 

The big question is, did MA do due diligence on this problem? The latest predictions were published after he signed up. 

[Northluck C 30]

22 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Please,  for the love of God, tell me that's the horrible stand they put the away fans in that they're rebuilding. I'd give em £150M just to tear down those toilets.

Nope, it’s the one opposite they’re rebuilding. Away fans will still be treated to that dilapidated Arthur Wait Stand and its delightful ‘facilities’ for years to come it seems. Shocking that it wasn’t condemned years ago!

Edited December 29, 2023 by Northluck C
Typo

[sonyc 5,539]

10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

has probably become unsaleable due to climate change predictions. Unless of course Norfolk County Council gets its finger out and creates some huge flood plains outside the City. 

I found a tiny bit of comfort that you didn't add to your point by stating "that ship has sailed".

Kudos therefore for avoiding the cliché 😉 .....and you left enough room for me to think it!

Edited December 29, 2023 by sonyc
ship not boat

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,423]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

I found a tiny bit of comfort that you didn't add to your point by stating "that boat has sailed".

Kudos therefore for avoiding the cliché 😉 .....and you left enough room for me to think it!

I bet he wishes he had 😉

[kingsway 94]

On 29/12/2023 at 11:54, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

No! I hear you cry, Carrow Road is our spiritual home, but for me it's not the stadium I enjoyed my most memorable Norwich City moments in, from the mid seventies to maybe the mid nineties, swaying and singing in the Barclay and also the South Stand and even the River End. This was my spiritual home.

I find the stadium today fairly soulless, the lack of an atmosphere in no small way due to all seating being introduced (don't be fooled into thinking safe standing will reverse this).

So, I've waffled, how do others feel. Do people have the same feeling I had back in the good old days about the ground now? I know the football hasn't been great, I'm not using that as a stick.

Its a complete urban myth that out of City/Town stadiums mean better transport links and getting to and from the stadium becomes easier. - In fact its the opposite and gets harder and takes longer - Anyone thats been to Bristol City where you need a taxi or shuttle bus from the stadium to the train station, sat in a traffic jam in an industrial estate outside Stokes ground or been squeezed like sardines into a small train from Brightoin main station to the little station outside the ground would testify. I speak from personal experience on this and can say without any doubt whatsoever that if my matchday experience after watching Norwich play at home became something like this then it would seriously reduce my desire to keep going and this is coming from someone whose religiously gone to home games since the late 70's!

If Norwich decided to build a new ground on the A47 this would mean everyone travelling by train would need a shuttle bus which would add half an hour/one hour to the matchday experience which would mean many would eventually tire of this and either stop going or end up driving to the game which would result in more traffic on the road. This would result in huge packed car parks around the ground being even slower to exit out of especially as they would likely be the only nearby parking options.

 

Carrow Roads near the train station, walking distance from the City, not far of the ring Road and can be made as big as the club will ever need it to be so these facts indicate its the ideal place for a Norwich City stadium.

 

On the subject of stadium expansion and improvement, its a bit like getting your first mortgage in that its a massive move that will be expensive but the longer you put of doing it the harder it will be.

 

The City Stand is way to small and the facilities which were fine in the 80's and 90's are now very outdated and cramp. The clubs attendances over time, the upturn in football crowd levels since the hooligan era of the 1970's and 80's and the massive draw that top flight football is ample enough evidence that building a bigger and better City stand pushing the Carrow Road ground capacity up to 32,000-35,000 would be a wise long term move that would help the club to be more competitive, attract and accomodate more supporters and prevent the club form being left behind by other clubs who aren't bigger than Norwich.

 

I believe the current idea of the Board is to bolt an upper tier on the City Stand but this would be shortsighted in my opinion cause like before mentioned the City Stand is past its sell by date so a new replacement one tiered stand a bit bigger than the South stand would be ideal.

Edited December 30, 2023 by kingsway

[dylanisabaddog 4,952]

45 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I found a tiny bit of comfort that you didn't add to your point by stating "that ship has sailed".

Kudos therefore for avoiding the cliché 😉 .....and you left enough room for me to think it!

I don't know if that ship has sailed or not. I have no idea if the prediction is correct but 15 years ago there was a report on land losses on the east coast of Norfolk going forward 50 years. That report was ignored as being fanciful but 15 years on we're almost there already. The amount of land lost to the sea at Hemsby and Winterton in the last 2 years is beyond the wildest predictions but despite that Norfolk County Council and Norwich City Council don't seem to have a long term plan. Added to that, the flood levels 5 miles from the City at Bramerton and Surlingham aren't good. 

I emailed a County Councillor when the football ground report was published and asked what NCC were planning to do. I haven't received a response. 

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

No! I hear you cry, Carrow Road is our spiritual home, but for me it's not the stadium I enjoyed my most memorable Norwich City moments in, from the mid seventies to maybe the mid nineties, swaying and singing in the Barclay and also the South Stand and even the River End. This was my spiritual home.

I find the stadium today fairly soulless, the lack of an atmosphere in no small way due to all seating being introduced (don't be fooled into thinking safe standing will reverse this).

So, I've waffled, how do others feel. Do people have the same feeling I had back in the good old days about the ground now? I know the football hasn't been great, I'm not using that as a stick.

I think the main problem is the transport links which would put many people off, myself included. It's easy enough driving, getting a bus, train etc into Norwich city centre all within a short walk to the ground. If the stadium was built say on the Showground area that would be a nightmare for many. 

I wonder if there is land somewhere closer to the city? The footprint for a stadium isn't as big as what you think.

But Dylan is right about the flooding concerns but they exist regardless if we extend the stadium or not.

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

3 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I don't know if that ship has sailed or not. I have no idea if the prediction is correct but 15 years ago there was a report on land losses on the east coast of Norfolk going forward 50 years. That report was ignored as being fanciful but 15 years on we're almost there already. The amount of land lost to the sea at Hemsby and Winterton in the last 2 years is beyond the wildest predictions but despite that Norfolk County Council and Norwich City Council don't seem to have a long term plan. Added to that, the flood levels 5 miles from the City at Bramerton and Surlingham aren't good. 

I emailed a County Councillor when the football ground report was published and asked what NCC were planning to do. I haven't received a response. 

My daughter was at UEA within last 2 years and showed me some flood modelling she did so the predictions are constantly being looked at. Of course they are only predictions and the only thing you can say for certainty about forecasts is that they will be wrong. However if they are nearly right, or even worse then any concerns will remain.

[RobJames 883]

2 hours ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

To take this discussion off at a slight tangent...would anybody be averse to a new stadium being built out of town with better transport links and parking and maybe a bit more geared up to holding more concerts, so better concourse catering etc.

eh ?

"better transport links "

Have you been to Brighton, or Reading. Or numerous other out of town grounds ? Where in Norfolk could a ground be built that is near to a train station ? Berney Arms. Pretty much all the buses run into the City, not cross country. So fans would have to travel in, and then back out again. How would they get from the station ?

Concerts, how much would that generate ? Like wise catering. Look at the number of pubs that are used before the game then imagine having to replicate that number in a new ground

What is evident is some don't seem to get out of the 'monkey tennis' type arguments as many, like Partridge who was being sacked, are desperate to scrabble around for some obscure benefit to counter reality.

Edited December 29, 2023 by RobJames

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,423]

43 minutes ago, RobJames said:

eh ?

"better transport links "

Have you been to Brighton, or Reading. Or numerous other out of town grounds ? Where in Norfolk could a ground be built that is near to a train station ? Berney Arms. Pretty much all the buses run into the City, not cross country. So fans would have to travel in, and then back out again. How would they get from the station ?

Concerts, how much would that generate ? Like wise catering. Look at the number of pubs that are used before the game then imagine having to replicate that number in a new ground

What is evident is some don't seem to get out of the 'monkey tennis' type arguments as many, like Partridge who was being sacked, are desperate to scrabble around for some obscure benefit to counter reality.

No need for an eh? I was just curious on people's opinion on whether or not they still saw Carrow Road as some kind of holy shrine that was untouchable.

Well with 25 years to go before we will possibly be forced to relocate, we should have plenty of time to consider all those factors. I don't know, maybe there's a site near rail infrastructure that can be utiised.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Wings of a Sparrow

[RobJames 883]

So, I just imagined your thought that we could relocate to somewhere with "better transport links ""

Perhaps we could find a location with a higher population, or a greater concentration of entertainment venues, in Norfolk.

The reality is there is NOWHERE in Norfolk that has better transport links as 'any fule knows'

Hence the 'eh ?'

[astro 364]

I think there is a wonderful vibe gained from walking through the City and down to the ground with your fellow supporters - so would hate to see it moved. 
if it does have to move due to flooding, then it’s a shame it couldn’t have been incorporated into the Anglia Square development, although train links would have been a problem. 
I think the worst out of town stadium I’ve been to is Northampton’s - utterly soulless. 

[Number9 272]

19 hours ago, RobJames said:

House prices are determined by the demand, not the cost of building them

So you think it's no more expensive to extend your football stadium in London than Norwich?

You really believe that?

[RobJames 883]

I never stated that, you are just making up stuff. Now why not read what I posted and replay to that instead.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

20 hours ago, RobJames said:

What rot.

Are Sheff Weds or Derby any higher in this measures you quote, than Brentford or Bournemouth ? And the lunacy continues as apparently basic balance sheet figures should be ignored. Short term monetary concerns will be what determines our playing budget next season and who we sign and who we sell - which in consequence will have a huge impact on our season. And guess what ? That is what influences the number of folk who turn up. Not the size of any stand.

Football is always slightly cyclical, so it won't be exact at any one point in time but if you drew a line of accomplishments and capacity, I bet it'd fit together pretty closely.