Poor squad

[BigFish 1,988]

10 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Point me any side in the top half of the table without decent effective loans: binners have 3, Leicester 4 .  You are in complete denial about how things are in the real world.

To be fair to @ged in the onion bag he makes a valid and consistent point, that the club should be developing, encouraging and playing future talent to build for the future. The criticism of this is not that we would be a weaker team, it is that we would need to go up to have the fnances to retain our brightest and best.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

13 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Point me any side in the top half of the table without decent effective loans: binners have 3, Leicester 4 .  You are in complete denial about how things are in the real world.

The 3 teams who got promoted had lots of loans, look at them right now.    We aren’t anywhere near being ‘difficult to beat’ which some of those were.   Leicester have financial backers, I don’t care about other teams and how they will succeed and then likely fail.    
 

I gave you examples of some of our loans, even mentioned something about the quality of our recruitment that’s an evident problem.   Interesting how you completely ignore those er ‘facts’.     
 

Where am I in complete denial?   I know loans are part of football, always short-term fixes that fail to address sustainability in our case.    
 

It seems others on here agree with me.   
 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,049]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

By the time all five if them are back, chances are another five players will be injured. 

No club will ever have a fully fit squad. There'll be times when some clubs don't have many, and there'll be times when they have loads, but across the course of the season, things will generally even themselves out.

I'm sure that a lot of clubs will look at their bench when they've got a few regular starters out injured and think the bench looks weak.

Except Ipswich have one injury.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

17 minutes ago, BigFish said:

To be fair to @ged in the onion bag he makes a valid and consistent point, that the club should be developing, encouraging and playing future talent to build for the future. The criticism of this is not that we would be a weaker team, it is that we would need to go up to have the fnances to retain our brightest and best.

I looked into this in a bored moment and pretty sure there hasn’t been a successful side at this level for several seasons who hasn’t had at least one loan player - usually 2-3 - in their squad.  That doesn’t necessarily mean promoted or that they will succeed if they are promoted, but none of the PL promoted sides last year were relegated and all used loans to get there. Binmen maybe didn’t start any yesterday but brought on two and had a third on the bench. And I’m pretty sure they had players starting who they’d had on loan last season.

There’s really no reason it stops progression of home grown players in any way at all, Ged seems to be totally blind that it can be useful If used in a cohesive transfer strategy.  We’ve been guilty of using it poorly for the last two seasons.  I’m not suggesting we overuse it, but to use the market sensibly to supplement what we have.  The problem of being utterly blind to something is that it means you can’t see there might be a benefit.

As to last season, Ramsey was a good player, Marquinhos not - but it hardly makes the whole loan market defunct because we used it poorly. Hayden was a loan-to-buy so entirely different as all-but a permanent signing who thankfully didn’t play enough.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[RobJames 881]

2 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

It’s a mid table squad and it’s still in decline right now!    

What on earth is ‘a play-off squad’?   What’s that mean and what’s the point if it’s so far off an EPL squad?

err, yes

A squad that is unbeaten in the past seven games certainly is in decline. And I take your point about being so far off. I can see there being a massive protest by the supporters if we make the playoffs - and were we to win I expect there to be a boycott of the PL games, and a demand that we hand back the £100m or so TV money.

Perhaps you could define what you mean by mid table, between which two places. So we can end this run and fit into where we belong. Places in the table are accorded by how the squad is perceived not by the points they have won., must be the thought

 

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

2 minutes ago, RobJames said:

err, yes

A squad that is unbeaten in the past seven games certainly is in decline. And I take your point about being so far off. I can see there being a massive protest by the supporters if we make the playoffs - and were we to win I expect there to be a boycott of the PL games, and a demand that we hand back the £100m or so TV money.

Perhaps you could define what you mean by mid table, between which two places. So we can end this run and fit into where we belong. Places in the table are accorded by how the squad is perceived not by the points they have won., must be the thought

 

 

Are you seriously using a 7 game run of games against poor sides in the main and with unconvincing performances as your barometer?     

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,763]

21 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Are you seriously using a 7 game run of games against poor sides in the main and with unconvincing performances as your barometer?     

The last 7 games have provided a fairly typical cross section of fixtures against teams from top through to bottom, that you would see in any 7 game run in this league...

Edited December 17, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[repman 635]

My main issue with the squad is that it's far too old, I was on board with one or two of the experienced signings early on in the window but by the time Fassnacht and Forshaw were joining it felt like overkill. It's an even bigger issue when I think outside of Stacey and Barnes you'd be pushed to label any of them as certain first choice players. I'd much rather have our depth pieces be younger players who may eventually make their way into the side as a starter.

I do think a better coach would have this side higher up the league, in Rowe and Sara we have 2 really top end players, Gunn is one of the better keepers in the league. A lot of the pieces around them are more than good enough, you don't need superstars in every position to do well. Just look at Luton last year or even Ipswich so far. 

 

[S_81 801]

14 minutes ago, RobJames said:

err, yes

A squad that is unbeaten in the past seven games certainly is in decline. And I take your point about being so far off. I can see there being a massive protest by the supporters if we make the playoffs - and were we to win I expect there to be a boycott of the PL games, and a demand that we hand back the £100m or so TV money.

Perhaps you could define what you mean by mid table, between which two places. So we can end this run and fit into where we belong. Places in the table are accorded by how the squad is perceived not by the points they have won., must be the thought

 

 

We’re not unbeaten in 7 games. We lost at Watford 4 matches ago. With a complete capitulation. You keep speaking like the season is 7 games in. Before our upturn in form we hadn’t won for 5, for example. 
 

To me that highlights a couple of things - firstly the squad depth in talent terms is lacking and even a couple of injuries really cost us. Secondly it highlights the inconsistency of Wagner as a manager. Albeit the former is mitigation for the second. But equally he’s at fault for some of his weird experimentation.  
 

I agree with what you posted though about having shipped out some players whose hearts weren’t in it. But there’s a lot more work to do - as we’ve been left with very little off the bench as it stands. Albeit that will improve slightly when a few come back off the treatment table. 

[Capt. Pants 4,239]

13 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

The last 7 games have pfovided a fairly typical cross section of fixtures against teams from top through to bottom, that you would see in any 7 game run in this league...

Agreed.

Plus, with the exception of WBA, we've played all teams once therefore our league position and points are fairly indicative of the quality of our squad. If anything the injuries we've had, especially Sargent, suggests to me our position is currently understated.

The season is far from over yet, and still much to play for, including the play-offs.

[RobJames 881]

20 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Are you seriously using a 7 game run of games against poor sides in the main and with unconvincing performances as your barometer?     

Barometers measure the pressure at that time, NOT what the pressure was two months ago.  So to claim we are in decline is incorrect. Unless you think the barometer is incorrect and the actual weather is what the reading gave 2 months ago.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

It's a poor league and I still think we make well make the playoffs.

Not sure I'd want to go up with the majority of this current squad... 

[hogesar 9,676]

13 minutes ago, repman said:

My main issue with the squad is that it's far too old, I was on board with one or two of the experienced signings early on in the window but by the time Fassnacht and Forshaw were joining it felt like overkill. It's an even bigger issue when I think outside of Stacey and Barnes you'd be pushed to label any of them as certain first choice players. I'd much rather have our depth pieces be younger players who may eventually make their way into the side as a starter.

I do think a better coach would have this side higher up the league, in Rowe and Sara we have 2 really top end players, Gunn is one of the better keepers in the league. A lot of the pieces around them are more than good enough, you don't need superstars in every position to do well. Just look at Luton last year or even Ipswich so far. 

 

I dont think the squad is too old. Or, more to the point, its not difficult to see where it quite quickly becomes more balanced.

Ultimately CB is our main issue. Duffy, Baath, Hanley and Gibson. Baath was only 1 year thank god and will be off. I suspect we will sign a ball playing defender in the summer with age on their side to bring this down.

Then we've got Sara, Nunez, Rowe, Sainz, Sargent, Idah, Gibbs all in and around the first 11 being 23 and under.

I think it sometimes looks a big problem where in reality it is only a couple in and out from being one of the younger 11s in the league.

 

[BigFish 1,988]

38 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I looked into this in a bored moment and pretty sure there hasn’t been a successful side at this level for several seasons who hasn’t had at least one loan player - usually 2-3 - in their squad.  That doesn’t necessarily mean promoted or that they will succeed if they are promoted, but none of the PL promoted sides last year were relegated and all used loans to get there. Binmen maybe didn’t start any yesterday but brought on two and had a third on the bench. And I’m pretty sure they had players starting who they’d had on loan last season.

There’s really no reason it stops progression of home grown players in any way at all, Ged seems to be totally blind that it can be useful If used in a cohesive transfer strategy.  We’ve been guilty of using it poorly for the last two seasons.  I’m not suggesting we overuse it, but to use the market sensibly to supplement what we have.  The problem of being utterly blind to something is that it means you can’t see there might be a benefit.

As to last season, Ramsey was a good player, Marquinhos not - but it hardly makes the whole loan market defunct because we used it poorly. Hayden was a loan-to-buy so entirely different as all-but a permanent signing who thankfully didn’t play enough.

All true, but not really pertinent. A clear decision was made in the Summer that when it came to squad augmentation this would be experienced freebies rather than loans. The effect is pretty much the same. Firstly thet block a route to the 1st team. Secondly, if we do go up they are not good enough to keep us up. Argument is whether either create a sustainable future.

[Indy 3,300]

It’s by no mens a poor squad, certainly a very poor recruitment this summer, losing good players and replacing them with really average cheap old journeymen hast worked out. Even Barnes looks a very tired and unfit player at present! Duffy very inconsistent and the others well none of them actually improved our starting 11 from last year!

For me the bright future potential comes from Sainz, Rowe and Sargent. Young Fisher given his age experience where he’s come from looks a prospect and Sara has looked our best player this season! So it’s certainly not a poor squad just an average squad with some real gems of potential.

If I could I’d send Hwang back and use the Arsenal connection to loan in a couple fringe players, I’d even enquire about Smith Rowe given he’s a talent who needs to play! They might cough up big part of his wages and get that decent striker in too!

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,763]

22 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Agreed.

Plus, with the exception of WBA, we've played all teams once therefore our league position and points are fairly indicative of the quality of our squad. If anything the injuries we've had, especially Sargent, suggests to me our position is currently understated.

The season is far from over yet, and still much to play for, including the play-offs.

The return of Sargent could be crucial

I'd have said he's probably one of the top 6 strikers in this league, who had he have been fit for the whole season would have got 22+ goals

There arent many clubs around the playoff chasing pack who can say they have a striker like that becoming available to them for the secind half of this season

 

[RobJames 881]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

It’s by no mens a poor squad, certainly a very poor recruitment this summer, losing good players and replacing them with really average cheap old journeymen hast worked out. Even Barnes looks a very tired and unfit player at present! Duffy very inconsistent and the others well none of them actually improved our starting 11 from last year!

For me the bright future potential comes from Sainz, Rowe and Sargent. Young Fisher given his age experience where he’s come from looks a prospect and Sara has looked our best player this season! So it’s certainly not a poor squad just an average squad with some real gems of potential.

If I could I’d send Hwang back and use the Arsenal connection to loan in a couple fringe players, I’d even enquire about Smith Rowe given he’s a talent who needs to play! They might cough up big part of his wages and get that decent striker in too!

Given we are one of the top scorers in the league, I would suggest a striker is not our priority. The squad is a reflection of our financial position. We will more than half our income next summer. Should we have signed contracts that we then could not afford ? Or gamble that we could find another £10m-20m player to sell to balance the books. ?

[RobJames 881]

4 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

The return of Sargent could be crucial

We are the third highest scorers in the league. But the 2nd highest in goals conceded. In that light, I would suggest Hanley's return is more the none needed.

[duke63 542]

We lack two players in important positions imho. We don’t have a play maker who can do something out of the ordinary (tho Sainz shows some promising signs) and we are still without a CDM. We all saw what a difference Skipp made last time. 
I think if we sorted those we could be a significant force. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,763]

18 minutes ago, RobJames said:

We are the third highest scorers in the league. But the 2nd highest in goals conceded. In that light, I would suggest Hanley's return is more the none needed.

Possibly...but for all the goals we've scored our top scoring striker is Idah with 6

A 20 goal as season striker coming back for the second half of the season wont hurt

..and I believe our defence is more down to the poor / non existent protection in front of them in midfield rather than the defenders themselves.

A proper CDM in January could be the biggest of all

Edited December 17, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Gordon Bennett 784]

3 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

It’s a mid table squad and it’s still in decline right now!    

What on earth is ‘a play-off squad’?   What’s that mean and what’s the point if it’s so far off an EPL squad?

Have a guess. One that finishes in the top six maybe? With a better coach and a couple of additions, as stated.

What does 'it's still in decline right now' mean anyway? 

As for the last sentence, why bother at all then? If there is no aspiration to get promoted then we might as well all pack up and go home.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

It’s by no mens a poor squad, certainly a very poor recruitment this summer, losing good players and replacing them with really average cheap old journeymen hast worked out. Even Barnes looks a very tired and unfit player at present! Duffy very inconsistent and the others well none of them actually improved our starting 11 from last year!

For me the bright future potential comes from Sainz, Rowe and Sargent. Young Fisher given his age experience where he’s come from looks a prospect and Sara has looked our best player this season! So it’s certainly not a poor squad just an average squad with some real gems of potential.

If I could I’d send Hwang back and use the Arsenal connection to loan in a couple fringe players, I’d even enquire about Smith Rowe given he’s a talent who needs to play! They might cough up big part of his wages and get that decent striker in too!

If you think Smith Rowe is going to come here on loan you're absolutely stark raving bonkers. 

[GenerationA47 752]

4 hours ago, repman said:

. A lot of the pieces around them are more than good enough, you don't need superstars in every position to do well. Just look at Luton last year or even Ipswich so far. 

 

Or indeed Norwich, every promotion season this century.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

8 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

With all the injuries yesterday it highlighted how poor the squad that Webber has lumbered us with. Hernandez, Fassnacht, Springett, Placheta, Long, Forshaw, and Bath would struggle to make the bench at many other Championship clubs.Jury is still out on Fisher. Trouble is our current financial situation does not bode well for any January signings 

No. It has some flaws but overall is a top-six Championship-level squad.

Edited December 18, 2023 by PurpleCanary

[ged in the onion bag 855]

5 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

I looked into this in a bored moment and pretty sure there hasn’t been a successful side at this level for several seasons who hasn’t had at least one loan player - usually 2-3 - in their squad.  That doesn’t necessarily mean promoted or that they will succeed if they are promoted, but none of the PL promoted sides last year were relegated and all used loans to get there. Binmen maybe didn’t start any yesterday but brought on two and had a third on the bench. And I’m pretty sure they had players starting who they’d had on loan last season.

There’s really no reason it stops progression of home grown players in any way at all, Ged seems to be totally blind that it can be useful If used in a cohesive transfer strategy.  We’ve been guilty of using it poorly for the last two seasons.  I’m not suggesting we overuse it, but to use the market sensibly to supplement what we have.  The problem of being utterly blind to something is that it means you can’t see there might be a benefit.

As to last season, Ramsey was a good player, Marquinhos not - but it hardly makes the whole loan market defunct because we used it poorly. Hayden was a loan-to-buy so entirely different as all-but a permanent signing who thankfully didn’t play enough.

This is just fanciful garbage.   You never answer any of the facts I point out and don’t take account of the truth of ‘our’ particular situation, I.e, squad not great,  recruitment isn’t clever and we have no money.    
 

I recognise that for example, Notts Forest got promoted using the loan system and it worked for them.   Loans can be very useful.   I am not blind to it.   I recognise other teams use loans but it’s all temporary and we need to create a squad of quality and depth so we can compete without money, that’s where we’re at right now.    However, and this is the crux where your argument fails, other teams like Forest go up and spend lots of money, £300m…. Burnley just spent the best part of £80m and even that’s not really helping them is it.  How much do you think we will spend if we go up?   Skipp proved it, we were never ever going to be able to buy him but we couldn’t replace him.   But he sure meant we didn’t develop someone for that CDM position did we.    Other clubs could buy him or a replacement.

It’s not like we are creating a team that’s ‘a pain in the backside to play against, that’s hard to beat first and foremost is it?   That’s the starting point for progress, not the EPL fortune.   What happened to the last two fortunes and parachute payments, where is it all?    Your deluded, either that or please explain how your plan using loans is going to succeed except in the short-term, because you’ve offered absolutely nothing reasonable or feasible in this debate apart from comparison to ‘other clubs’ who have either got backing or are stagnating without a plan like we now are.    

Then of course you have to add the likelihood of this recruitment team performing wonders in the market and based on the evidence before us, that’s unlikely, or do you know something I don’t?
 

Ramsey played reasonably well a youngster but exactly what benefit did he bring us last season?

If loans did improve us and got us promoted, based on all the evidence, the quality of this squad, the fact we concede so many goals, the lack of creativity, the recent recruitment, the finances, what would your expectations be for promotion, how will we compete, how quickly would you get on the managers back for not performing miracles?     Would you be happy to see us get thumped week in and out.   How would we avoid that scenario?   Why would this time be different to the last  two (especially since the team and the manager are significantly inferior right now.     Of course we are unlikely to go up, with or without loans but either way in your plan, I can only see it ignores development and long-term progress.  Convince me otherwise with rational argument.   
 

By the way, Hayden may have been a loan to buy, but (and I said it at the time we signed him) he was never the answer in any circumstance.    That’s a recruitment failing, another one of the many.   To my knowledge we still have the same staff working there, they just have a new boss.  A boss that’s young, inexperienced and yet to prove himself.    I hope he does prove himself but he’s got one hell of a job on his hands.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

7 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

No. It has some flaws but overall is a top-six Championship-level squad.

How many championship forums have fans that are quoting that same statement?     I imagine at least half.   Only 6 can be.    Ours doesn’t have a particularly good forward at this level, no CDM, its got the second worse defence by stats, it’s ageing and unbalanced.    Is it really top-six?    How, why is it better than say Sunderland, Blackburn, Watford, Coventry or Middlesbrough?   

Edited December 18, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Indy 3,300]

8 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

If you think Smith Rowe is going to come here on loan you're absolutely stark raving bonkers. 

So sitting in the reserve or playing competitive football? I’m pretty sure he’d give it some thought! Yes it’s a long shot but why not?

[ged in the onion bag 855]

13 hours ago, RobJames said:

Barometers measure the pressure at that time, NOT what the pressure was two months ago.  So to claim we are in decline is incorrect. Unless you think the barometer is incorrect and the actual weather is what the reading gave 2 months ago.

It’s a figure of speech!   Derrr!    We were in the Premier League and there has been a gradual decline ever since that has not been arrested!   The squad value has dropped significantly, we are conceding more goals, more regularly and the league position keeps dropping.    Of course, it’s in decline, we bought in slower, older players with less desire.   You tell me how it’s not in decline?   

As for our form, it’s not been convincing, despite the wins as you suggest.    Since getting beaten by Swansea then demolished by Blackburn at home, we’ve played 2 of the bottom 3, Preston in free fall (form 20th), Bristol City and Cardiff where by all accounts we didn’t deserve to win.    We could just as easily have lost those games.    

Of course,  we actually lost at Watford (who were then about 15th or 16th) with another awful performance.

I don’t want us to lose, I want us to be competitive.   It just isn’t working very well is it.   To be competitive, we need to stop conceding goals.   This group doesn’t have the personnel or the collective capability to do that.   They don’t have ‘natural’ defenders with any pace or CDMs or a team set up to be difficult to score against.     Fact is chasing the top-six or promotion is preventing development of players and a playing style that might make us competitive.    Don’t be fooled by this run, this squad isn’t very good.   

Edited December 18, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

7 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

This is just fanciful garbage.   You never answer any of the facts I point out and don’t take account of the truth of ‘our’ particular situation, I.e, squad not great,  recruitment isn’t clever and we have no money.    
 

I recognise that for example, Notts Forest got promoted using the loan system and it worked for them.   Loans can be very useful.   I am not blind to it.   I recognise other teams use loans but it’s all temporary and we need to create a squad of quality and depth so we can compete without money, that’s where we’re at right now.    However, and this is the crux where your argument fails, other teams like Forest go up and spend lots of money, £300m…. Burnley just spent the best part of £80m and even that’s not really helping them is it.  How much do you think we will spend if we go up?   Skipp proved it, we were never ever going to be able to buy him but we couldn’t replace him.   But he sure meant we didn’t develop someone for that CDM position did we.    Other clubs could buy him or a replacement.

It’s not like we are creating a team that’s ‘a pain in the backside to play against, that’s hard to beat first and foremost is it?   That’s the starting point for progress, not the EPL fortune.   What happened to the last two fortunes and parachute payments, where is it all?    Your deluded, either that or please explain how your plan using loans is going to succeed except in the short-term, because you’ve offered absolutely nothing reasonable or feasible in this debate apart from comparison to ‘other clubs’ who have either got backing or are stagnating without a plan like we now are.    

Then of course you have to add the likelihood of this recruitment team performing wonders in the market and based on the evidence before us, that’s unlikely, or do you know something I don’t?
 

Ramsey played reasonably well a youngster but exactly what benefit did he bring us last season?

If loans did improve us and got us promoted, based on all the evidence, the quality of this squad, the fact we concede so many goals, the lack of creativity, the recent recruitment, the finances, what would your expectations be for promotion, how will we compete, how quickly would you get on the managers back for not performing miracles?     Would you be happy to see us get thumped week in and out.   How would we avoid that scenario?   Why would this time be different to the last  two (especially since the team and the manager are significantly inferior right now.     Of course we are unlikely to go up, with or without loans but either way in your plan, I can only see it ignores development and long-term progress.  Convince me otherwise with rational argument.   
 

By the way, Hayden may have been a loan to buy, but (and I said it at the time we signed him) he was never the answer in any circumstance.    That’s a recruitment failing, another one of the many.   To my knowledge we still have the same staff working there, they just have a new boss.  A boss that’s young, inexperienced and yet to prove himself.    I hope he does prove himself but he’s got one hell of a job on his hands.

You have this odd idea that I want an entire loan XI but I have only ever said we should use loans to cover squad gaps.  I’d say 3 loans would probably be a max.  And it is far from necessarily related to poor recruitment, you could fast track a player who doesn’t come on as hoped, or have long-term injuries to key roles. Even at PL level you have key players who are on loan.

At least you are as predictable as expected, Mr anti-loans who certainly rose to the bait.

[BigFish 1,988]

6 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

How many championship forums have fans that are quoting that same statement?     I imagine at least half.   Only 6 can be.    Ours doesn’t have a particularly good forward at this level, no CDM, its got the second worse defence by stats, it’s ageing and unbalanced.    Is it really top-six?    How, why is it better than say Sunderland, Blackburn, Watford, Coventry or Middlesbrough?   

The thing is this year's Champs is actually better than usual. The three relegated teams have managed to keep it all together and the Binners have momentum. Although having seen them on Saturday that don't really look all that. As a result the two automatics are probably taken and four out of six play off places. Then, in answer to you question in sentence one, there are probably up to 10 clubs who fancy a crack at fifth or sixth.

If you judge the squad by the possibility of 5th and 6th, when all fit it is probably good enough to put a run together to give it a go. Scoring goals is not really an issue, the missing CDM is a myth at this level (or indeed in the modern game) and whether you like it or not Wagner is implementing a coherent playing style. In addition the emergence of Rowe demonstrates a development pathway.

That said your comment of what would be the point of promotion is illustrated by the weaknesses. When the opposition out-think us we don't have a plan B, our CBs can't pass and do the playing part of what is expected of them and even at this level we get outfought across the pitch in some games.