"Deluded Madman" Proved Correct?

[Petriix 2,838]

8 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

This obsession with getting sara further forward is a bit odd to me, he arrived with a reputation for being a box to box midfielder, he does best when playmaking from deep and arriving late to attacks and on the few occasions he was played as an AM hasn't really shone... If anything it's Nunez that needs to be a bit more forward

It's simply that Sara is one of the two (currently fit) players we have who is consistently capable of kicking the ball into the goal. Playing him in more of a goalscoring position is pretty obvious. Remember how Pukki was originally playing on the wing before being moved to the central position when his strengths became clear?

Nunez, on the other hand, has been playing really well in that deeper role. If we sign that elusive CDM then keeping McLean in defence and Nunez in midfield. Moving Sara to 10 is pretty obvious. I'd be disappointed if we didn't try it. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah, I never suggested that player should be McLean?

Apologies, I thought you were suggesting McLean play behind Nunez and Sara, but now I'm thinking you were suggesting playing Nunez behind McLean and Sara.

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

It's simply that Sara is one of the two (currently fit) players we have who is consistently capable of kicking the ball into the goal. Playing him in more of a goalscoring position is pretty obvious. Remember how Pukki was originally playing on the wing before being moved to the central position when his strengths became clear?

Nunez, on the other hand, has been playing really well in that deeper role. If we sign that elusive CDM then keeping McLean in defence and Nunez in midfield. Moving Sara to 10 is pretty obvious. I'd be disappointed if we didn't try it. 

I'd love to see it.

Dimi, Kenny, Duffy (prefer Batth but isn't happening), Stacy in defence

Solid DM, Nunez

Rowe, Sara, Sainz

Sargent

Great team. Even better with a proper left-footed CB. If I was signing two players in Jan they'd be a left sided CB and a DM.

[daly 503]

Kenny is comfortable on the ball unlike

Gibson,  Hanley and especially Duffy

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Do I think it’s the right thing to play him at CB? No. Has he done a good job? Yes. That’s all you can ever ask of anyone when selected. I still feel it’s a bit of a slap in the face for Batth and Warner though who must feel like they can’t do anything right with Wagner. Ultimately it’s a results game and we are getting results of late. 

[hogesar 9,676]

2 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Do I think it’s the right thing to play him at CB? No. Has he done a good job? Yes. That’s all you can ever ask of anyone when selected. I still feel it’s a bit of a slap in the face for Batth and Warner though who must feel like they can’t do anything right with Wagner. Ultimately it’s a results game and we are getting results of late. 

I'm not fussed what Baath feels, he literally can't pass square without taking 4 touches. It's fine if you're a Millwall or Rotherham but it's not how we want to play. He's only signed until end of season right? If we can get a ball playing defender even on loan I'd let him go in Jan.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

I'm not fussed what Baath feels, he literally can't pass square without taking 4 touches. It's fine if you're a Millwall or Rotherham but it's not how we want to play. He's only signed until end of season right? If we can get a ball playing defender even on loan I'd let him go in Jan.

I can understand that logic with Bath but Warner is the future he needs minutes 

[hogesar 9,676]

Just now, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I can understand that logic with Bath but Warner is the future he needs minutes 

He might do, if he's good enough. I really have my doubts but Wagner seems to sort of rate him. Unfortunately he has been injured on and off apparently.

[king canary 7,608]

40 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Apologies, I thought you were suggesting McLean play behind Nunez and Sara, but now I'm thinking you were suggesting playing Nunez behind McLean and Sara.

No, I'm suggesting we still need to sign someone new to fill that role long term.

Appreciate it wasn't clearest worded post though.

[king canary 7,608]

19 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He might do, if he's good enough. I really have my doubts but Wagner seems to sort of rate him. Unfortunately he has been injured on and off apparently.

Yeah I was really unimpressed by Warner to be honest. Obviously want to support our younger players but he looked lost at times when he came in and when I compare that to how players like Omobamidele or Godfrey looked when they were first called into the team it is night and day.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

18 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I was really unimpressed by Warner to be honest. Obviously want to support our younger players but he looked lost at times when he came in and when I compare that to how players like Omobamidele or Godfrey looked when they were first called into the team it is night and day.

Those guys were also arguably playing with better players around them though. 

[hogesar 9,676]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I was really unimpressed by Warner to be honest. Obviously want to support our younger players but he looked lost at times when he came in and when I compare that to how players like Omobamidele or Godfrey looked when they were first called into the team it is night and day.

Yep. I don't want the club to fall into the trap of playing youth because they're youth, rather than because they're actually good enough. Of course he might come good and he was comfortable on the ball but his positioning and discipline / knowing went to press and went to retreat was non-existent. I don't think Duffy is the best CB partner to have and I've said for a while I really don't rate him but Duffy's performances have improved so can't see him being dropped.

[king canary 7,608]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Yep. I don't want the club to fall into the trap of playing youth because they're youth, rather than because they're actually good enough. Of course he might come good and he was comfortable on the ball but his positioning and discipline / knowing went to press and went to retreat was non-existent. I don't think Duffy is the best CB partner to have and I've said for a while I really don't rate him but Duffy's performances have improved so can't see him being dropped.

Yeah that was how I saw him too. I remember a few times there being chances and me wondering 'where the **** is Warner right now?' because his man was entirely unmarked. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,761]

Its certainly going to be interesting to see who drops out when Hanley Gibson Sargent and Hwang are all back.

[shefcanary 2,409]

10 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Its certainly going to be interesting to see who drops out when Hanley Gibson Sargent and Hwang are all back.

I think only Sarge guaranteed an immediate return.

[Danke bitte 965]

3 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Well that was what Wagner is according to many on here when he picked Kenny in central defence against Bristol City. Either that or he was deliberately taking the p*ss in an effort to get sacked and paid up his contract before Christmas.

Kenny then plays pretty well against Bristol and we win. 

"Ah well Bristol are a team of short ar**s, he'll be found out when we have to defend against a bigger team who lump it into our box in the air"

Cue Sheffield Wednesday and their long throw merchant Will Vaulks and bunch of giant meat heads trying to get on the end of long balls into the box. We concede one goal from a long throw, but win comfortably and Kenny gets another assist from centre back to go with the one he got at Bristol City.

"Ah well Bristol City are midtable and Sheffield Wednesday are in the relegation places - it's all very well against teams like that, but we've got the derby against Ipswich coming up and they're flying - this will be the game where the experiment implodes with disastrous and embarrassing results".

And after today's game nobody, but nobody is even mentioning the fact that Kenny was playing in central defence.

Time to give Wagner some credit for the switch maybe? Time for a load of vocal and loud mouthed critics to admit that they might have been wrong?

Drugs: give me your drugs please. NR19 is my postcode. I’m willing to pay £50 per g. Cheers

[hogesar 9,676]

34 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

I think only Sarge guaranteed an immediate return.

I think you're right. 

And then I'm hoping either sign a ball playing CB or another midfielder to create genuine competition. Baath can go, Warner can go on loan. I dont think Hanley gets straight in.

[repman 635]

3 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Those guys were also arguably playing with better players around them though. 

It's a tale as old as time, playing in a bad team will make you look worse and the inverse of that is also true. Warner was dropped into a team in really bad form whereas Godfrey and Omo were playing for the league winners. I don't think anyone would argue that they both looked their best when they were in those teams respectively. People were quick to bemoan Omo's lack of progression last season but the fact is the team was just worse. The best way to allow players to develop is to drop them into systems which are settled so they can build familiarity quickly, we've not had any cohesive style for the last 2 years. 

 

[mrD66M 99]

5 hours ago, cornish sam said:

This obsession with getting sara further forward is a bit odd to me, he arrived with a reputation for being a box to box midfielder, he does best when playmaking from deep and arriving late to attacks and on the few occasions he was played as an AM hasn't really shone... If anything it's Nunez that needs to be a bit more forward

It's mostly because of his shirt number, and some of his technical attributes that got people comparing him to the last player to wear #17. To me he is most effective as an 8.

Nunez ..I still can't tell what his best role on the pitch is.

Edited December 17, 2023 by mrD66M

[Monty13 2,235]

4 hours ago, Petriix said:

It's simply that Sara is one of the two (currently fit) players we have who is consistently capable of kicking the ball into the goal. Playing him in more of a goalscoring position is pretty obvious. Remember how Pukki was originally playing on the wing before being moved to the central position when his strengths became clear?

Nunez, on the other hand, has been playing really well in that deeper role. If we sign that elusive CDM then keeping McLean in defence and Nunez in midfield. Moving Sara to 10 is pretty obvious. I'd be disappointed if we didn't try it. 

I don’t think Sara is a good 10 personally. Maybe he’s too deep right now but he’s definitely most effective IMO arriving late into the box/getting the ball in space in dangerous positions outside the box. He’s got a great eye for a pass but most of those are from deeper positions too.

If we are going to play a 10 I’d like to see an actual 10 personally, although it means adding one to the shopping list.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,761]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

I think only Sarge guaranteed an immediate return.

I'm guessing once everyone is fit Wagner will play (not necessarily my team)

                    Gunn

Stacey    Hanley   Gibson  Giannoulis

                Sara    McLean

  Rowe         Barnes       Sainz

                     Sargent

Duffy and Nunez to be the main casulaties here.

Gibson is the left footed defender Wagner clearly wants in the team, as captain Hanley I suspect will come back in when fully fit.

'If' he opts to continue playing with 2 strikers ( one in the no.10 role) ,as opposed to playing a third midfielder, I actually think Hwang /Sargent have the makings of a decent pairing. Barnes is struggling to perform for 90 mins

[Monty13 2,235]

3 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Its certainly going to be interesting to see who drops out when Hanley Gibson Sargent and Hwang are all back.

Duffy, Nunez and Idah for Hanley, Gibson and Sargent would be my guess, Hwang on the bench and Kenny replacing Nunez. 

[Sufyellow 222]

15 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Well that was what Wagner is according to many on here when he picked Kenny in central defence against Bristol City. Either that or he was deliberately taking the p*ss in an effort to get sacked and paid up his contract before Christmas.

Kenny then plays pretty well against Bristol and we win. 

"Ah well Bristol are a team of short ar**s, he'll be found out when we have to defend against a bigger team who lump it into our box in the air"

Cue Sheffield Wednesday and their long throw merchant Will Vaulks and bunch of giant meat heads trying to get on the end of long balls into the box. We concede one goal from a long throw, but win comfortably and Kenny gets another assist from centre back to go with the one he got at Bristol City.

"Ah well Bristol City are midtable and Sheffield Wednesday are in the relegation places - it's all very well against teams like that, but we've got the derby against Ipswich coming up and they're flying - this will be the game where the experiment implodes with disastrous and embarrassing results".

And after today's game nobody, but nobody is even mentioning the fact that Kenny was playing in central defence.

Time to give Wagner some credit for the switch maybe? Time for a load of vocal and loud mouthed critics to admit that they might have been wrong?

That's all great , but you do realise that Ipswich missed about 3 sitters in the first half totally unmarked in the box , and several free headers. We could of lost that badly. Our defence yesterday was pulled apart at times and one pass they were through the midfield.  

[Mason 47 1,379]

As indicated by Petriix, moving Kenny to CB has actually fixed two issues. The first is obviously how weak the central midfield looked, but the second is the ability of the defence to play out and activate the rest of the team.

We are still prone to getting locked into our own half for periods, but this is happening much less regularly and is looking much less terminal (see yesterday). Sara and Nunez seem to be a much better pairing than either with Kenny, notwithstanding I feel like the former looks considerably blunter recently as a result of more defensive concentration. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

We're still very shaky at the back at times though and I've noticed Duffy more than once have to come over the Kenny's side to deal with some danger. What it has done though is show that maybe the reason our attempts to play out from the back were usually so poor was because of our regular CB's quality on the ball as opposed to the way Wagner want's us to do it. Duffy is just barely good enough at it to not constantly give the ball away but hasn't got the skill or technique to do it fast enough to move teams about, same with Hanley. Batth can't do it at all and while Gibson is pretty good at it 95% of the time the 5% of the time he isn't always leads to a good chance or goal for the opposition. McLean is a good enough footballer to do it but it's leaving us exposed in a different way that suggests to me this isn't going to be the long term fix. In fact I think it's just as much a desperate short term fix as it is a message to Knapper from Wagner really wants a ball playing cb in January. Arsenal must have a technically good young CB playing for their under 23's who would jump at the chance for regular championship football, I know we have Warner but for whatever reason Wagner doesn't think he's ready yet. 

I wouldn't mind seeing us try 3 at the back at one stage with Warner/Gibson or a new signing either side of Duffy or Hanley with one of those two being told to just win everything and do all the last ditch defending. That way would could have our ball playing defenders but still be solid in the air and at last ditch defending. Push the fullbacks high for width. Have a balanced midfield 3 or McLean, Sara and Nunez with Rowe playing off the striker more centrally like this (In an ideal world with everyone fit)

                       Gunn

           Warner Duffy Gibson

Stacey                                     Dimi

           Nunez McLean Sara

                       Rowe

                      Sargent

That way when trying to suck teams in and beat their press McLean can still drop deep like he does now but it'll be 3 players decent on the ball plus Duffy as a spare man if needed which should make it much more effective. The fullbacks starting positions would be higher allowing for quicker counter attacks and that position should suit their attacking instincts more, we'd still have 2 in the middle like we do now. Rowe can float around wherever he wants to and not have to track back much and as we don't score many from crosses from our wingers anyway i don't think we lose loads by sacrificing that area of the pitch. Probably a terrible idea as historically we've always been awful with 3 at the back but looking at the players we have combined with Wagners insistence on his way of creating artificial counters by sucking teams in with our build up play it makes sense in my head.   

       

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

18 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Well that was what Wagner is according to many on here when he picked Kenny in central defence against Bristol City. Either that or he was deliberately taking the p*ss in an effort to get sacked and paid up his contract before Christmas.

Kenny then plays pretty well against Bristol and we win. 

"Ah well Bristol are a team of short ar**s, he'll be found out when we have to defend against a bigger team who lump it into our box in the air"

Cue Sheffield Wednesday and their long throw merchant Will Vaulks and bunch of giant meat heads trying to get on the end of long balls into the box. We concede one goal from a long throw, but win comfortably and Kenny gets another assist from centre back to go with the one he got at Bristol City.

"Ah well Bristol City are midtable and Sheffield Wednesday are in the relegation places - it's all very well against teams like that, but we've got the derby against Ipswich coming up and they're flying - this will be the game where the experiment implodes with disastrous and embarrassing results".

And after today's game nobody, but nobody is even mentioning the fact that Kenny was playing in central defence.

Time to give Wagner some credit for the switch maybe? Time for a load of vocal and loud mouthed critics to admit that they might have been wrong?

Was going to write this myself as a thread-starter with more of a focus on how much credit McLean deserves for stepping up, but was stuffing my face in a double celebration (Miss TGS and her mother have birthdays four days apart so a mahoosive feast got set up and I've eaten more bits of pig than I dare to see for at least a frigging week) but you saved me the bother.

You can see that Wagner's having a good look at what we've got and playing around with potential options. I have said before I could see McLean finishing his career as a centre-half and as a natural left-pegger who can stride out with the ball, he does give us some nice options from the back.

The real problem yesterday was McCallum's first-half performance but even then, McLean more than held his own in defence.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

12 hours ago, mrD66M said:

It's mostly because of his shirt number, and some of his technical attributes that got people comparing him to the last player to wear #17. To me he is most effective as an 8.

Nunez ..I still can't tell what his best role on the pitch is.

Nunez is a number 10. 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

Wagner has a selection problem when everybody is fit 

I personally would not change a winning / form team until the form drops 

i would change Sarge upfront for Barnes or Idah but not at back or Midfield 

Mclean has done a job like he always does when asked  he has played well we have a upturn in form why change it because  Hanley / Gibson is fit ,

 

[shefcanary 2,409]

3 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

As indicated by Petriix, moving Kenny to CB has actually fixed two issues. The first is obviously how weak the central midfield looked, but the second is the ability of the defence to play out and activate the rest of the team.

We are still prone to getting locked into our own half for periods, but this is happening much less regularly and is looking much less terminal (see yesterday). Sara and Nunez seem to be a much better pairing than either with Kenny, notwithstanding I feel like the former looks considerably blunter recently as a result of more defensive concentration. 

100% in agreement!

[shefcanary 2,409]

Just to add, I hadn't realised Kenny started as a LFB (per our Scottish interloper). Having had a similar positional journey as him, finishing a career as a LCB now makes perfect sense as he loses a yard or two of pace. He has always been good in the air, so a little work on his positional play and we might just have finally found his best place for us.