Ipswich captain Morsy not wearing rainbow armband

[Fen Canary 874]

7 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

And yet the bible says man should not sleep with another man for it is an abomination.

 

And yet you see vicars flying the LGBT flag at churches and even the Pope is saying Catholics can be gay.

 

Interesting, no?

It definitely causes schisms within the church, with the parishioners and local vicars tending to be much more conservative on the issue than those at the top. Though without immigration the church would have all but died off in this country by now anyway 

[Fen Canary 874]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

To make my opinion clear, I think players should have the right not to take the knee or wear a rainbow armband if they feel so strongly against it. I wouldn't want to go back to a world where it was almost compulsory to stand up during God Save The King. I also agree that these gestures can quickly become empty and merely performative. They can also make people feel good about themselves, but probably don't change the world much. They can become an alternative to action.

That being said, someone's refusal to take the knee or wear the armband is also a clear political gesture, and they can't pretend that it isn't. They are sending a message, just as much as the person wearing a rainbow armband is sending a message.

As someone who would happily wear a rainbow armband, I think you should also recognise that there is a lot of discussion within the movements that you seem to think are totally monolithic.

 

I’ve no problem with players supporting groups and causes if they genuinely believe in them. If a player wants to speak out in favour of gay or trans rights then I’d never criticise them for it. What I’m deeply uncomfortable with is the pressure that’s put on them to perform performative gestures for groups others deem to be worthy, and then facing a barrage of abuse and criticism if they fail to comply. This thread being a prime example of a player being pressured into doing something he (for whatever reason) doesn’t want to do, then immediately taking to social media to condemn him when he doesn’t do as he’s told.

[Newports Canary 8]

12 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Didn't Zimmermann refuse to take the knee?

Ishmael Yakubu, a lower league Nigerian player refused to do it too. And he wouldn't do it because he said all lives matter not just black lives.

The person who posted that a lot of gay people wouldn't like being lumped together with people with very different sexualities or gender identities or whatever, is probably right. I've never really thought about it before but wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people that both campaigns were supposed to represent, actually find it all quite offensive. 

[Positive_Canary 33]

1 minute ago, Newports Canary said:

Ishmael Yakubu, a lower league Nigerian player refused to do it too. And he wouldn't do it because he said all lives matter not just black lives.

The person who posted that a lot of gay people wouldn't like being lumped together with people with very different sexualities or gender identities or whatever, is probably right. I've never really thought about it before but wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people that both campaigns were supposed to represent, actually find it all quite offensive. 

You think we should give up on asking key influencers such as footballers, to lend their voice to campaigns which support inclusion? 

[TheGunnShow 6,023]

31 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

And yet the bible says man should not sleep with another man for it is an abomination.

 

And yet you see vicars flying the LGBT flag at churches and even the Pope is saying Catholics can be gay.

 

Interesting, no?

Which is why religion as a basis for morality is indubitably flawed.

[Fen Canary 874]

8 minutes ago, Positive_Canary said:

You think we should give up on asking key influencers such as footballers, to lend their voice to campaigns which support inclusion? 

They never asked to be influencers, they never asked to be forced to represent whatever cause is your latest flavour of the month, that’s a job you seem desperate to pin on them. They’re footballers, nothing more. They’re paid to put the ball past the oppositions keeper and bring a little bit of joy to my weekend. 

[The Bristol Nest 518]

21 minutes ago, Newports Canary said:

Ishmael Yakubu, a lower league Nigerian player refused to do it too. And he wouldn't do it because he said all lives matter not just black lives.

The person who posted that a lot of gay people wouldn't like being lumped together with people with very different sexualities or gender identities or whatever, is probably right. I've never really thought about it before but wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people that both campaigns were supposed to represent, actually find it all quite offensive. 

Black lives matter as much as white lives. Hope that helps.

[Fen Canary 874]

5 minutes ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Black lives matter as much as white lives. Hope that helps.

I think that was the whole argument against doing the kneeling wasn’t it? Anybody who said all lives matter was largely condemned 

[TIL 1010 4,801]

Who would have thought this thread would turn out the way it has ?

[The Real Buh 3,486]

11 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Who would have thought this thread would turn out the way it has ?

You wouldn’t catch Portsmouth fans talking like this.

[TIL 1010 4,801]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

You wouldn’t catch Portsmouth fans talking like this.

However i am having difficulty identifying the 20%ers from the 80%ers.

[The Real Buh 3,486]

17 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

However i am having difficulty identifying the 20%ers from the 80%ers.

Generally, I’m not having the same issue.

You though… You could be in either. A true chameleon. 
 

[nu_matik 167]

41 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Who would have thought this thread would turn out the way it has ?

Yes, Norwich has anti-trans fans and posters on here and at least it's easy to spot them so we know who's who. Awful, really, but sadly not surprising.  There is a still a lot of work to do, clearly.

[Newports Canary 8]

1 hour ago, Positive_Canary said:

You think we should give up on asking key influencers such as footballers, to lend their voice to campaigns which support inclusion? 

No but wouldn't wouldn't agree with all inclusion campaigns that are theoretically possible obviously. Footballers aren't really "asked" to do so though are they, more like forced to do so (but that a small minority still won't follow for different reasons). 

I merely pointed out that, at least in the BLM case, there's at least one example of a player which it's supposed to "represent" (better wording?) who feels strongly enough that he refuses to do it. Of course he might be the only one, or there may be others who feel the same as him, but who just go along with it. 

[Positive_Canary 33]

1 minute ago, Newports Canary said:

No but wouldn't wouldn't agree with all inclusion campaigns that are theoretically possible obviously. Footballers aren't really "asked" to do so though are they, more like forced to do so (but that a small minority still won't follow for different reasons). 

I merely pointed out that, at least in the BLM case, there's at least one example of a player which it's supposed to "represent" (better wording?) who feels strongly enough that he refuses to do it. Of course he might be the only one, or there may be others who feel the same as him, but who just go along with it. 

This debate has shifted somewhat and for that reason it proves it is certainly a discussion worth having. We don't really know for certain that religion is the solitary reason their captain refusing to support inclusion, but it would seem very likely. I guess my question should really of been whether we would be happy supporting a team led by someone with such an archaic stance on sexuality. 

[Hairy Canary 711]

I guess the point is if you ask someone to support a cause, however worthwhile, you have to accept that they may say no. If its mandated then it becomes as useful a barometer of opinion as a Russian Presidential election.

At least if people are able to say no it becomes possible to find out why they feel that way, outdated religious beliefs for example, and look to educate, persuade and listen.  

Edited December 12, 2023 by Hairy Canary

[Naturalcynic 677]

2 hours ago, Positive_Canary said:

You think we should give up on asking key influencers such as footballers, to lend their voice to campaigns which support inclusion? 

Expecting (bullying?) everyone, including footballers and your fellow fans, to unquestioningly demonstrate support for political causes that, on the surface, might appear reasonable but actually include some highly contentious aspects is akin to demanding that all those who care about fluffy little animals should march in favour of National Socialism on the grounds that Hitler was a vegetarian.  An extreme comparison maybe, but it makes the point that blindly embracing an ideology because you support some parts of it but oppose others is not always a good thing to do.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Naturalcynic

[Robert N. LiM 4,545]

Don't know anything about Morsy so not going to comment on his decision not to wear the armband.

But would just point out that it seems odd to suggest that campaigns to support LGBT equality should be kept out of football when there is still no out gay player in top level men's professional football in this country. 

[Haus 259]

13 hours ago, Positive_Canary said:

Only marriages between men and women are considered legitimate in Egypt. He presumably wants to maintain that stance despite living and working in the UK. 

Hes from the UK. 

[Positive_Canary 33]

18 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Don't know anything about Morsy so not going to comment on his decision not to wear the armband.

But would just point out that it seems odd to suggest that campaigns to support LGBT equality should be kept out of football when there is still no out gay player in top level men's professional football in this country. 

and if every club captain adopted the same stance, we can never expect that to change. 

I feel slightly sick in the stomach that we will continue to expect sportsmen and women to be fearful of revealing their true sexuality for fear of being alienated within their own dressing room. 

 

[Haus 259]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

I think that was the whole argument against doing the kneeling wasn’t it? Anybody who said all lives matter was largely condemned 

Yes because when people are taking a knee to protest black people being discriminated against, saying 'all lives matter' is like going to someones funeral and shouting, WHAT ABOUT DAVE, HE IS DEAD TOO.

[Naturalcynic 677]

6 minutes ago, Haus said:

Yes because when people are taking a knee to protest black people being discriminated against, saying 'all lives matter' is like going to someones funeral and shouting, WHAT ABOUT DAVE, HE IS DEAD TOO.

Is it?  Is it really?  I don’t think so.

[Haus 259]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

And yet the bible says man should not sleep with another man for it is an abomination.

 

And yet you see vicars flying the LGBT flag at churches and even the Pope is saying Catholics can be gay.

 

Interesting, no?

The bible also says, you having a tattoo is an abomination, also says wearing clothes made of mixed material is an abomination, it says eating seafood is an abomination.  Theres loads and loads of these.   Christians don't get as outraged about these things as they do about people being gay. (its almost as if the issue isn't the religion at all)  These books were written thousands of years ago by people and having an imaginary friend is no excuse to discriminate against people

[Mr.Carrow 380]

13 hours ago, nu_matik said:

Exactly this. Unbelievable that people here would confuse politics and human rights. I get 'freedom of speech ' but he isn't being asked to day anything. Players actions speak louder than words and their actions affect millions.

Forcing people, whether by law or social ostracism, to repeat performative political acts is one of the cornerstones of totalitarianism. Read Vaclav Havel's "the Greengrocer".

[Naturalcynic 677]

6 minutes ago, Haus said:

The bible also says, you having a tattoo is an abomination, also says wearing clothes made of mixed material is an abomination, it says eating seafood is an abomination.  Theres loads and loads of these.   Christians don't get as outraged about these things as they do about people being gay. (its almost as if the issue isn't the religion at all)  These books were written thousands of years ago by people and having an imaginary friend is no excuse to discriminate against people

The original point was that despite what it may or not say in The Bible, the Christian faith is increasingly welcoming of those who are gay and lesbian.  Perhaps better to direct your outrage at another Abrahamic faith which seems particularly resistant to anything other than literal interpretations of its holy book.

[Haus 259]

Just now, Naturalcynic said:

The original point was that despite what it may or not say in The Bible, the Christian faith is increasingly welcoming of those who are gay and lesbian.  Perhaps better to direct your outrage at another Abrahamic faith which seems particularly resistant to anything other than literal interpretations of its holy book.

I direct it at all of them tbh. the Christian faith isnt so bad in the UK, but is an issue in places like the USA.

[TheRock 171]

This is comparible to James McClean and the poppies on football shirts discussion.

People are entitled to wear/not wear what they want, whether it is considered morally right or wrong. We live in a free and democratic county, prejudice should not be held against someone because of this.

[Captain Holt 522]

19 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

He’s free to do as he pleases. The rainbow insignia has become synonymous with political groups such as Stonewall which he may not like so he doesn’t want to be seen as supporting them.

Just because he doesn’t want to wear it doesn’t automatically mean he’s homophobic.

I also hate you for making me defend a binner

Not one person I know would associate the pride flag with politics.

[nu_matik 167]

3 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Forcing people, whether by law or social ostracism, to repeat performative political acts is one of the cornerstones of totalitarianism. Read Vaclav Havel's "the Greengrocer".

Nobody is forcing anyone. That's the problem, the repeated nonsense that this is about force.

It isn't about force. It's about professional responsibility to one's platform, that there are campaigns such as this one that are larger than individual opinion. 

As someone raised earlier, there are still out gay footballers. There is still homophobia on the terraces.

Unless you're just lazy and aren't that bothered, I suppose showing support for that makes you one thing or another.

[shefcanary 2,474]

15 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I went to a gig the other day and the support act spent more time talking politics than playing. 

Could you say who? Just so I can organise my trips to the bar more effectively. 😉