Tactical ineptitude: midfield shambles

[Petriix 2,847]

It's basic stuff. There are simple tactical structures fundamental to a coherent midfield at every level of the game which even non-league clubs do, but we are not. Tracking runners, covering crucial areas, blocking passing angles. Out of possession there is a reason why we are used to seeing teams fall into two banks of four or five so as to be as difficult as possible to break down.

Our midfield is a shambolic mess with huge holes which even the lesser teams in the league are able to exploit. The players we have simply don't have the positional awareness and don't do the basics. We leave players completely unmarked to stroll through the huge gaps we afford them.

We look like a bunch of amateurs. It's hard to fathom how our wage bill has been so ridiculously high. We're still paying Premier League wages for League One players. It's a mess which is going to take a total restructure to recover from.

I know it will be unpopular but players like McLean and Hernandez are absolutely central to the problem. They lack the instincts and awareness to do the basics to anything close to the required standard.

Changing the manager will not fix it. We need to get the new sporting director in ASAP and overhaul the squad before it can possibly improve. Stuart Webber needs to be gone in the morning. 

[TheGunnShow 5,977]

Partially agree, but would say, and have said for some time, that our problem is due to insisting on playing overlapping full backs AND wingers. I don't think this is completely down to the quality of the players, I think this is the weakness of the set-up when we lose the ball as often we're very spread-out all over the pitch. 

Worse still, we're not exactly that fast or powerful in the middle of the pitch either so we're forever a bit behind the eight-ball and harum-scarum in trying to get back, meaning we're forever conceding ground.

IMO we should play wing-backs or the Christmas tree formation. Start gumming up the middle of the pitch more.

[Petriix 2,847]

This is all compounded by the de-skilling that's gone on throughout the squad. The lack of technical ability, creativity, movement and vision means we keep losing the ball and fail to create the openings when we do have possession.

We keep overcommitting players forward in the folly of the 'high press' means we're both toothless in attack, and wide open whenever we lose the ball. All teams have to do against us is form a low block, give us the ball and wait for us to go out of position and give away the ball before cutting through us.

With every departure from our previous Championship winning midfield we've got progressively worse. How Cantwell was deemed surplus to requirements when we're now playing Hernandez every week just highlights how far we've regressed. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,827]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

It's basic stuff. There are simple tactical structures fundamental to a coherent midfield at every level of the game which even non-league clubs do, but we are not. Tracking runners, covering crucial areas, blocking passing angles. Out of possession there is a reason why we are used to seeing teams fall into two banks of four or five so as to be as difficult as possible to break down.

Our midfield is a shambolic mess with huge holes which even the lesser teams in the league are able to exploit. The players we have simply don't have the positional awareness and don't do the basics. We leave players completely unmarked to stroll through the huge gaps we afford them.

We look like a bunch of amateurs. It's hard to fathom how our wage bill has been so ridiculously high. We're still paying Premier League wages for League One players. It's a mess which is going to take a total restructure to recover from.

I know it will be unpopular but players like McLean and Hernandez are absolutely central to the problem. They lack the instincts and awareness to do the basics to anything close to the required standard.

Changing the manager will not fix it. We need to get the new sporting director in ASAP and overhaul the squad before it can possibly improve. Stuart Webber needs to be gone in the morning. 

Agree with the vast majority of this.

For weeks on end, our opponents have had numerous attacks every game where they're four-on-three or three-on-two, because of the insistence on sending the full backs so far forward they can't get back in time, and leaving McLean as the only player back with the centre backs. Even for Blackburn's third goal, the defenders just failed to track either of the two attackers who combined to put the ball in without any challenge. 

The only two things I'd disagree with are that McLean is central to the problem (he's being asked to do too much, and the main things are not his natural game) and that changing the manager won't fix it (surely a new coach would set the team up to not be so open as soon as we lose the ball).

[Indy 3,307]

What I saw today is that we overload our wings we have two wingers and the wingbacks push up with them that’s four played wide leaving massive space down the flanks and we get picked off into that space! But even worse we play with one striker who can’t header a ball! What’s the point of having width of you don’t plan to use it?

[Petriix 2,847]

6 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

The only two things I'd disagree with are that McLean is central to the problem (he's being asked to do too much, and the main things are not his natural game) and that changing the manager won't fix it (surely a new coach would set the team up to not be so open as soon as we lose the ball).

I don't really have a problem with McLean competing for a place at number 8, but the role he's being asked to perform and his absolute inability to perform the basics when out of possession make him the problem right now. A new manager won't have an actual CDM to call on so it's hard to see anything changing until we can get to a transfer window and plug the gaping holes in the squad. 

[Sufyellow 222]

12 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Agree with the vast majority of this.

For weeks on end, our opponents have had numerous attacks every game where they're four-on-three or three-on-two, because of the insistence on sending the full backs so far forward they can't get back in time, and leaving McLean as the only player back with the centre backs. Even for Blackburn's third goal, the defenders just failed to track either of the two attackers who combined to put the ball in without any challenge. 

The only two things I'd disagree with are that McLean is central to the problem (he's being asked to do too much, and the main things are not his natural game) and that changing the manager won't fix it (surely a new coach would set the team up to not be so open as soon as we lose the ball).

What is McLeans natural game ? He's a good squad player to cover lots of injuries,  but he shouldn't be a starter .

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,827]

9 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I don't really have a problem with McLean competing for a place at number 8, but the role he's being asked to perform and his absolute inability to perform the basics when out of possession make him the problem right now. A new manager won't have an actual CDM to call on so it's hard to see anything changing until we can get to a transfer window and plug the gaping holes in the squad. 

I agree completely about McLean. If you put him in his natural position as an '8', then he'd be fine. But asking him to play as the deepest midfielder with nobody bar the centre backs within 20 yards of him just leaves him and the team as a whole completely exposed over and over again. That's not Kenny's fault; he doesn't pick the team or decide the tactics. 

I also agree about the lack of a defensive midfielder, but I still believe that pretty much any other manager would be getting more out of this group. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

9 minutes ago, Indy said:

What I saw today is that we overload our wings we have two wingers and the wingbacks push up with them that’s four played wide leaving massive space down the flanks and we get picked off into that space! But even worse we play with one striker who can’t header a ball! What’s the point of having width of you don’t plan to use it?

Agree, but it shouldn't happen. When you play a system with full backs pushing on its even more important that one of the central midfielders sits between the 2 centra halves and they make a 3.

We don't do that hence why as you said we get so exposed. 

[Petriix 2,847]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

What I saw today is that we overload our wings we have two wingers and the wingbacks push up with them that’s four played wide leaving massive space down the flanks and we get picked off into that space! But even worse we play with one striker who can’t header a ball! What’s the point of having width of you don’t plan to use it?

Overlapping fullbacks is a widely accepted system in the modern game, but its success is largely contingent on playing the wide midfielders narrower and deeper as done so successfully by Farke, at Championship level at least. Johnny Rowe puts in a reasonable shift of getting up and down the wing in both attack and defence, but Hernandez plays like he's a wide attacker in a 4-3-3 which is totally flawed.

As far as I'm concerned McLean is an 8, Sara and Nunez are 10s (only one of them should ever be on the pitch at a time) and we have had a massive number 6 shaped hole in the team since Skipp returned to Spurs. Hernandez shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11.

[Indy 3,307]

2 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Overlapping fullbacks is a widely accepted system in the modern game, but its success is largely contingent on playing the wide midfielders narrower and deeper as done so successfully by Farke, at Championship level at least. Johnny Rowe puts in a reasonable shift of getting up and down the wing in both attack and defence, but Hernandez plays like he's a wide attacker in a 4-3-3 which is totally flawed.

As far as I'm concerned McLean is an 8, Sara and Nunez are 10s (only one of them should ever be on the pitch at a time) and we have had a massive number 6 shaped hole in the team since Skipp returned to Spurs. Hernandez shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11.

Agree and for me I’d play Rowe & Sainze as strikers, we we’re winning when playing two up top, when injuries hit we changed formation and it’s not working!

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,791]

Changing the manager may fix it...at least short term . We have to ,otherwise we will be relegated

If changing a manager made no difference, nobody would ever do it.

It was 6/7 weeks ago where we were thumped by 6 at Plymouth exposeing our midfield/defensive frailties and in the subsequent games this manager has demonstrated that he cannot coach this team to stop shipping goals.

We need a new man who can address this

Edited November 5, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[TheGunnShow 5,977]

31 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Overlapping fullbacks is a widely accepted system in the modern game, but its success is largely contingent on playing the wide midfielders narrower and deeper as done so successfully by Farke, at Championship level at least. Johnny Rowe puts in a reasonable shift of getting up and down the wing in both attack and defence, but Hernandez plays like he's a wide attacker in a 4-3-3 which is totally flawed.

As far as I'm concerned McLean is an 8, Sara and Nunez are 10s (only one of them should ever be on the pitch at a time) and we have had a massive number 6 shaped hole in the team since Skipp returned to Spurs. Hernandez shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11.

Agree that Nunez is a 10, hell, I said that in the matchday thread.

Would argue that the Christmas tree formation is the best way to get both men in - you play them both behind the main striker, with three more circumspect midfielders behind. That's three from, when fully fit, Forshaw, Lungi, McLean and Gibbs for me. If we need more width, chuck a winger on for one of those two.

[Capt. Pants 4,266]

Not sure Sara and Nunez covered themselves in glory today, but it's clearly a mess at the moment. If Forshaw and Sorensen are in our first XI then we really do have problems.

[Ernie Wise 67]

That’s right have a go at McLean. 
Sara and Nunez were outstanding? And Hernandez isn’t even a pub player. Rowe tried to run with the ball but all too often ran into dead ends and got crowded out.

There was no striker to knock the ball to and move the ball up the pitch. Whilst Hwang produced a few decent touches, he was rarely where he needed to be-ready to receive the ball in the centre of the pitch or in the box when crosses did start coming in from placheta. 
Have we ever had two full backs who have no idea how to do their principal job ie defend?

Up until today we had two centre backs who couldn’t catch a mobility scooter but…..

let’s have a go at McLean- always the first port of call!🤬

[Ernie Wise 67]

Oh by the way…Hanley will soon be back so that will mean he can share the scapegoating with Kenny.

[Corbs1 90]

Thanks for the discussion guys. I think we miss Hanley, felt for a while we are missing ( apart from the obvious quality, DMF player) players who are mentally stronger. I’ve been intrigued by WBA who on paper look v mediocre, having lost players, club in financial difficulties, yet you see a steeliness about them. Apart from being useful players I think Barnes and Sarge have a good attitude. 

[Big O 225]

3 hours ago, Sufyellow said:

What is McLeans natural game ? He's a good squad player to cover lots of injuries,  but he shouldn't be a starter .

That would require us to have better midfielders. 

[Sufyellow 222]

13 minutes ago, Big O said:

That would require us to have better midfielders. 

Yep I agree , but that should of been fixed after skip went and we had some money.  All this defending Kenny or making him out to be a scapegoat is rubbish, not aimed at you .The discussion is he isn't suited to the role he is being asked to play,  I think we all agree if we are going to push our fullbacks so far up the pitch we need someone to slot in. 

[vos 155]

6 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Partially agree, but would say, and have said for some time, that our problem is due to insisting on playing overlapping full backs AND wingers. I don't think this is completely down to the quality of the players, I think this is the weakness of the set-up when we lose the ball as often we're very spread-out all over the pitch. 

Worse still, we're not exactly that fast or powerful in the middle of the pitch either so we're forever a bit behind the eight-ball and harum-scarum in trying to get back, meaning we're forever conceding ground.

IMO we should play wing-backs or the Christmas tree formation. Start gumming up the middle of the pitch more.

Yes I agree the set up is wrong. Rowe/Hernandez play wide together with the so called attacking fullbacks so there are huge spaces in midfield for the opponents to exploit. Additionally when the opposition break clear our fullbacks are too far up the field that we are then wide open on the flanks. Particularly so concerning Dimi. Sara and Nunez are not defence minded and with McClean playing deep with two slow centre backs we are there for the taking. Amazingly the coaches do not seem to be aware of this basic issue.

Thought today that Rowe did not look interested. Hernandes is finished and Placheta can only kick with one foot. Hwang worked hard but does not really create a threat. Warner has potential. At least he is young, fast, tall and fit.

Back to tactics the Blackburn keeper looked very uncomfortable with high crosses. But we made no effort to exploit this - including corner kicks.

[TheGunnShow 5,977]

Just now, vos said:

Yes I agree the set up is wrong. Rowe/Hernandez play wide together with the so called attacking fullbacks so there are huge spaces in midfield for the opponents to exploit. Additionally when the opposition break clear our fullbacks are too far up the field that we are then wide open on the flanks. Particularly so concerning Dimi. Sara and Nunez are not defence minded and with McClean playing deep with two slow centre backs we are there for the taking. Amazingly the coaches do not seem to be aware of this basic issue.

Thought today that Rowe did not look interested. Hernandes is finished and Placheta can only kick with one foot. Hwang worked hard but does not really create a threat. Warner has potential. At least he is young, fast, tall and fit.

Back to tactics the Blackburn keeper looked very uncomfortable with high crosses. But we made no effort to exploit this - including corner kicks.

I think we'd solve a lot of issues if our full-backs were inverted instead of overlapping. You're right that we lack pace at centre-half and with McLean in there it doesn't add much more pace either. Also, bringing both full-backs in, or at least getting our wingers to swap around with them on occasion so that they are much more inside, would ease the defensive load on McLean in the middle.

[The Real Buh 3,446]

They hit us every time with the high-ish press and once our last midfielder makes a mistake the game is on, it’s a flat out sprint with the ball through pelenor fields with no resistance at all from midfield to the Center half’s.

The lack of tactical awareness, player motivation and our players basic abilities, real simple stuff like touch, weight of pass, shooting decisions.

It’s all a mess.

excellent summary OP

[Ulfotto 640]

Basically if we did’nt win the ball high up they scored. 
 

it seemed liked we playing 4-4-2 but executing it as 2-4-4 

[king canary 7,645]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

I don't really have a problem with McLean competing for a place at number 8, but the role he's being asked to perform and his absolute inability to perform the basics when out of possession make him the problem right now. A new manager won't have an actual CDM to call on so it's hard to see anything changing until we can get to a transfer window and plug the gaping holes in the squad. 

Yep this is the nub of it.

Kenny the central midfielder is a solid player at this level, although not as good as some seem to think.

Kenny the defensive midfielder is woeful.

It isn't his fault that the manager decided he had a system that didn't need a DM, it isn't his fault that the SD has ignored our most obvious hole in the team for the past three seasons but he has to be judged on how well he's executing the role he's being asked to play.

[Helsinki canary 242]

6 hours ago, Indy said:

What I saw today is that we overload our wings we have two wingers and the wingbacks push up with them that’s four played wide leaving massive space down the flanks and we get picked off into that space! But even worse we play with one striker who can’t header a ball! What’s the point of having width of you don’t plan to use it?

Exactly this and the way we set up is down to the manager and the dross that webber bought in. Never replacing Tettey and then Skipp was the biggest mistake ever and those decisions were made while Farke and Smith were managers - the common denominator is Webber

[Mason 47 1,391]

Today was the nexus of the problem with our set up. Many on social media rejoiced pre-game as 'Blackburn aren't even playing a striker'; this proved to be folly as they near enough kept 3-4 players between our midfield & defence and overloaded our entire defensive third. They were probably second guessing themselves- it can't be that easy, surely?

It strikes me that we're really being over-complicated. The current system is watch-like in its complexity, all gears & cogs needing to function properly to pull it off (and it does indeed work under those circumstances). Unfortunately any minimal disruption tends to break the whole thing.

Ironically- have things really come to this- I think the current crop would be better off in the 'Dean Smith' formation- 4-3-3 with Sara in the middle and two water-carriers doing the yards to cover.