match thread England V Ukraine

[Yellow Wal 314]

8 minutes ago, Conrad said:

Well, I assumed that Kane, Saka, Bellingham and Maddison could loosely be called attacking (they appear so for their clubs). I may be wrong though. When you end up with Henderson as playmaker something is clearly wrong. 

Kane, yes (well when he wasn't dropping to the halfway line), Saka has defensive traits and has played as a wing back, Bellingham is quite often employed as a defensive midfielder and Maddison is an out and out midfielder.

Rashford is another forward, Foden is mainly a midfielder as is Gallagher. 

So only two out and out forwards plus Saka used.

Defensive mindset with very strong attacking players available.

The manager seems afraid to attack.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

The comment comes up that England look a bit scared to attack. Problem was, they faced a Ukraine side at "home" who are excellent counter-attackers and indeed got a goal off one. On top of that, England have very little top-drawer quality in defence - a lot of solid Premier League pros but not much genuinely better than that. Same with defensive midfield (Bellingham isn't a defensive midfielder for me, he should be a bit further forward), and in goal. In fact, I'd even argue there's not much depth up top beyond Kane and to a lesser extent Rashford at the moment.

There's plenty of firepower in theory as England have a veritable gaggle of very good attacking midfielders, but the foundations behind it aren't quite strong enough so England can't go gung-ho. Prime example of when Southgate got this right was the 2-0 win against Germany in the Euros. Germans were excellent on the counter, so England hogged the ball after initial problems, then managed to work it accurately enough into the gaps to get the chances, converted one and then posed Germany the question of "can you get on the front foot against us now?"

You don't attack teams set up to counter. You try to draw them out. England lacked that yard of precision and pace in their passing to consistently put a well-organised Ukrainian defence under steady pressure. When that happens, too many players start coming forward trying to force the issue, and then the counter is on when the ball is lost.

We suffered that enough even with Farke's best teams.

Edited September 9, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Samwam27 527]

Can never understand why Southgate persists with Henderson, when youve got Rice as the cdm. With Bellingham next to Rice thats perfect 

Also Foden on the left as hes naturally left footed would give more balance with Madds in the middle and Saka on the right

Edited September 9, 2023 by Samwam27

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Standard Southgate. Fails to utilise a system which plays to our strengths. We should be attacking relentlessly with our forward talent. I don’t care how charmed people have been with Southgate’s ‘success’, it is not going to ever lead to an actual trophy. 

[vos 155]

Sadly this game summed up why we are a pretty average side. The answer "the number of  English players appearing  in the first teams in the Premiership is declining rapidly" 

[Capt. Pants 4,237]

It was a bizarre formation really if anything we had too many midfielders and Maddison was essentially nulified by our own players. Far too much respect given to Ukraine but that has always been Southgate's 'weakness'. 

Even if we sort that the back 4 is pretty woeful at this level. It's not his fault but someone needs to be better than Maguire, but who is that?

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

I don't get why Timori doesn't get a look in.

[Myra Hawtree 124]

5 hours ago, Davidlingfield said:

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Myra Hawtree
Delete

[Myra Hawtree 124]

5 hours ago, Davidlingfield said:

It’s a faux pas to wear a club shirt at an England game!

[mrD66M 99]

4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

To be fair Saka doesn't look fit.

Saka is clearly being overplayed at moment. How come Bowen (WHU) did not make the squad? Is he injured?

[mrD66M 99]

28 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

It was a bizarre formation really if anything we had too many midfielders and Maddison was essentially nulified by our own players. Far too much respect given to Ukraine but that has always been Southgate's 'weakness'. 

Even if we sort that the back 4 is pretty woeful at this level. It's not his fault but someone needs to be better than Maguire, but who is that?

I don't think GS knows how to set up a team with a classic #10. Who was the last player under him who we could class as such?

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 hours ago, Yellow Wal said:

Kane, yes (well when he wasn't dropping to the halfway line), Saka has defensive traits and has played as a wing back, Bellingham is quite often employed as a defensive midfielder and Maddison is an out and out midfielder.

Rashford is another forward, Foden is mainly a midfielder as is Gallagher. 

So only two out and out forwards plus Saka used.

Defensive mindset with very strong attacking players available.

The manager seems afraid to attack.

What would  Daniel Farke do with the squad that England have? .....Tear Ukraine a  new one with those players  at his disposal. As would David Wagner. 

I find Southgate  such a bore . Sure he's got a decent record but a braver head coach would.  have a better one

[AJ 1,222]

4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Dreadful advert for international football.

Looked like a half hearted training session. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

Germany  v Japan  was a great                 ( friendly)watch 

[Davidlingfield 63]

7 hours ago, Myra Hawtree said:

It’s a faux pas to wear a club shirt at an England game!

I agree! Don’t recognise him either - only person I saw in club shirt and it’s a Norwich one!!

[Conrad 170]

12 hours ago, Yellow Wal said:

Kane, yes (well when he wasn't dropping to the halfway line), Saka has defensive traits and has played as a wing back, Bellingham is quite often employed as a defensive midfielder and Maddison is an out and out midfielder.

Rashford is another forward, Foden is mainly a midfielder as is Gallagher. 

So only two out and out forwards plus Saka used.

Defensive mindset with very strong attacking players available.

The manager seems afraid to attack.

Small point. I didn't say forwards, I said attacking. All 4 that I mentioned are used in an attacking way by their clubs. It appears not by England though. It is no use just throwing on more forwards if there is no creativity behind them. Shades of Norwich under Smith? 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,728]

Southgate is the kind of guy who if you asked him what his favourite meal was would tell you it's plain brown bread and butter

[Conrad 170]

For the older Norwich supporters. Did the Walker goal last night, and the pass from Kane, remind anyone of the runs/goals from Mark Bowen and the passes from Crook? 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Southgate keeps his job because we qualify. But shouldn't we qualify anyway?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,728]

46 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Southgate keeps his job because we qualify. But shouldn't we qualify anyway?

This has always been the issue. England should quality. England has always had teams with good to great players. Hell, just look at the players they had during the 'golden generation'.

Arugbly that was Englands best chance to win something. But no, that got ruined due to club loyalties, the players hating each other and them spending their nights snorting lines and downing pints.

And now England have some fantastic quality players in the team and is really suited to be an attacking powerhouse team and what do we get?

Southgate filling half his team with defenders and has beens

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

He's been forced to do that, as he was when he was with Tottenham

It's his game, he's  always done it and I'd say all but the most  basic tactician would be ok with  it, it provides something different to the ' leading the line ' typical no 9.  Its called mixing it up. A 9 that just stays forward is much easier to mark , and a player with kanes decent passing ability can make the most  of midfield/ wide runners. I'm no Southgate fan , but I wouldn't stop  kane dropping  deep sometimes especially with the high standard f his long range passing. He's  not Big Dunc. This part of his game is more reminiscent  of Eric Cantona imo. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

12 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

There's no doubt that Harry Kane is world class at coming deep, but I think it's more out  of frustration and necessity that he does it with England and why he did it with Tottenham.

I've watched a couple of his Bayern Munich matches. He doesn't drop deep as much.

Whether that's Tuchel telling him to stay in the box more often or because Bayern control matches more often, i don't know.

His heat maps are telling.

At Tottenham he was pretty much everywhere from defence-to-attack. With England it's more midfield-to-attack and with Bayern he's mostly in the box.

The Tottenham heatmap looks insane.

Yeah. Cantona was one of the first true number 10s. Sheringham was another.

Id say you are probably right ref his role at Bayern. Though in tougher European games I can see him dropping deeper now and again, we'll  see in time.

[Capt. Pants 4,237]

If not Southgate, then who? Please not Eddie Howe. His disasterclass for Newcastle against Liverpool? No thanks.

It probably will be Howe though, I'm sure the FA and Saudis will come up with a package to ease him away, however I can't see anything happening until after the Euros and probably rightly so.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,728]

44 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

If not Southgate, then who? Please not Eddie Howe. His disasterclass for Newcastle against Liverpool? No thanks.

It probably will be Howe though, I'm sure the FA and Saudis will come up with a package to ease him away, however I can't see anything happening until after the Euros and probably rightly so.

There is no way Howe turns away from Saudi Money just so he can manage a few games a year

[Capt. Pants 4,237]

53 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

There is no way Howe turns away from Saudi Money just so he can manage a few games a year

He's phase 1 to oversee the transition, but once they start to attract World Class players he won't be good enough. Plus the England job pays very well.

I think he's done a good job tbh, better than I thought but he just seems another Southgate. You need a Coach who's good at tournament football and can galvanise a group of players in a short period of time during infrequent spells when matches occur. Terry Venables was probably the last good manager at that but then he never had to get England through qualification for Euro 96.

It's between Potter and Howe I would imagine and neither are hugely better than Southgate who knows how to qualify but not win tournaments.

[Red_Spartan 18]

But this is not club football. The GS remit is to progress the England team, weak or strong, into the later stage of tournaments.

Point one don't lose. Point two only draw if you can't do better. Nick a goal if you can then defend ferociously, like the Italians, the points are normally better than extra goals.

If you want to wipe the floor with someone then wait till you absolutely cannot be eliminated from the group.

Against Ukraine a slightly weakened selection with players being tutored to play non-losing team football. 

That is not English/Scottish "Attack! Attack! Attack!

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

19 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

It was a bizarre formation really if anything we had too many midfielders and Maddison was essentially nulified by our own players. Far too much respect given to Ukraine but that has always been Southgate's 'weakness'. 

Even if we sort that the back 4 is pretty woeful at this level. It's not his fault but someone needs to be better than Maguire, but who is that?

I'll say this: Southgate has to be careful with opposition teams simply as England's defenders are not up to it at the highest levels. That's one thing Southgate, a cultured and classy centre-half in his own right in an England shirt, appreciates from experience far more than most.

If he went gung-ho with that England squad, you'd end up with a load of Norwich performances in the top flight from Farke's first go, possibly with a bit more counter-attacking. Look dangerous going forwards, but would be easily opened up. Prime example, that 5-3 win against Kosovo, who are a very average side in the UEFA scheme of things.

Play like that against France and it'd be men against boys.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I'll say this: Southgate has to be careful with opposition teams simply as England's defenders are not up to it at the highest levels. That's one thing Southgate, a cultured and classy centre-half in his own right in an England shirt, appreciates from experience far more than most.

If he went gung-ho with that England squad, you'd end up with a load of Norwich performances in the top flight from Farke's first go, possibly with a bit more counter-attacking. Look dangerous going forwards, but would be easily opened up. Prime example, that 5-3 win against Kosovo, who are a very average side in the UEFA scheme of things.

Play like that against France and it'd be men against boys.

I'm sorry, but whilst he picks Maguire over one of Serie A's best centre-halves, he has no right to complain about his lack of defensive talent.

I saw a tweet yesterday that said something along the lines of "subbing off Bellingham whilst Jordan Henderson is still on the pitch at 1-1 tells you everything you need to know about Southgate's management".

The fact that the above doesn't instantly will the most stupid Southgate act award as there are myriad other examples is damning.

He's such a poor coach.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

26 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I'm sorry, but whilst he picks Maguire over one of Serie A's best centre-halves, he has no right to complain about his lack of defensive talent.

I saw a tweet yesterday that said something along the lines of "subbing off Bellingham whilst Jordan Henderson is still on the pitch at 1-1 tells you everything you need to know about Southgate's management".

The fact that the above doesn't instantly will the most stupid Southgate act award as there are myriad other examples is damning.

He's such a poor coach.

And how strong is Serie A in relative terms? Not saying it's a bad league by any means, but we're hardly talking about the 1980s and 1990s when it truly had most of Europe's best players (and defenders) and regularly won the Champions League/Europa League (or indeed the UEFA Cup, to give it the previous name).

Certainly doesn't appear as strong as La Liga, especially in terms of winning European club competitions over the last decade.

Edited September 10, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

And how strong is Serie A in relative terms? Not saying it's a bad league by any means, but we're hardly talking about the 1980s and 1990s when it truly had most of Europe's best players (and defenders) and regularly won the Champions League/Europa League (or indeed the UEFA Cup, to give it the previous name).

Certainly doesn't appear as strong as La Liga, especially in terms of winning European club competitions over the last decade.

They made up 50% of the Champions League semi-finalists last time around. And he's a mainstay in it and largely considered one the league's best centre-halves. And yet he is inexplicably looked over in favour of a Crystal Palace centre-back (I haven't seen them win many Champions Leagues) and an absolute donkey who can't get a game for his basket case club.