The controversial debate; Our defence without Hanley

[cambridgeshire canary 6,782]

Look, I love Hanley as much as many other people do. He always comes across as a decent bloke and when he's at his very best he is a very solid defender and has a lot of experience too.

And he is our regular first choice captain even if I admittedly have questioned his place as our captain before. Still, interestingly think its fair to say Hanley rather does fit our current 'older experienced seasoned pros' type of player that Wagner seems to want more of in the squad. 

Anyways, prior to his injury lot of scapegoating about our poor defence was piled onto Gibson while he seemed to escape criticism.

But I suppose the controversial debate to get started is quite simple;

Have we missed Hanley so far? When he's back from injury should he be guaranteed the captains armband and slotted straight back into the starting 11?

Edited August 27, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

I think the norwich defence has always been shaky I can't ever remember a defence that looked solid. Or a defender I totally trusted.

Is it something in football psychology where you blame your defence where actually it was a strong attacking play?

Would be interesting to see perspectives of clubs with world class defenders.

Van **** or maldini or sammer in the day.

A great example is Maguire actually, ridiculed yet at a lower level in reality he would be unplayable.

Also re Hanley, I would not expect to see him play for us again.

If you saw him hobbling about pre game Vs Millwall he's sixth months from running and probably another 8 from being able to play football.

He will probably not be at a championship level again, top level career ender  at his age.

Very sad 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Nexus_Canary

[Indy 3,314]

You had to do it didn’t you! We’re all happy, results going well and you had to stir the pot! 
I’m sure in 46 game season we will need both Hanley and Omobamadele at some point and they will walk into a confident and well organised team so should make it easier to fit into then one lacking confidence and structure like under Smith, so of course we miss Hanley as the more competition for places the higher the standard of the first 11!

[Capt. Pants 4,274]

Senseless thread. Unfair to judge a player who can't contribute because of a very serious injury which might just end his career if he doesn't/can't recover 100%.

Prior to that he was our best CB by some margin.

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,782]

7 minutes ago, Indy said:

You had to do it didn’t you! We’re all happy, results going well and you had to stir the pot! 
I’m sure in 46 game season we will need both Hanley and Omobamadele at some point and they will walk into a confident and well organised team so should make it easier to fit into then one lacking confidence and structure like under Smith, so of course we miss Hanley as the more competition for places the higher the standard of the first 11!

Hey, nothing like a debate on a sunday. What else we going to talk about the weather? 😉

Now if I really wanted to start causing drama I guess I should have called this thread "our attack; Better without Pukki?"

Edited August 27, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

1 minute ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Hey, nothing like a debate on a sunday. What else we going to talk about the weather? 😉

Now if I really wanted to start causing drama I guess I should have called this thread "our defence; Better without Pukki?"

*Baits hook and casts long *

 

Well it's evident our whole team is better off without pukki.

[shefcanary 2,444]

Very fair OP IMO! For once ...

If we have to resort to playing Hanley again we will be going backwards. Yes, it is a shame he has experienced such a severe, and potentially career ending, injury but the difference yesterday with Duffy's positioning was a step change in the defensive capability of our side. Duffy always seems to know exactly where to position himself. When he heads the ball, it also goes in the intended direction, a skill Hanley never mastered. Knowing this, it allows our full backs the opportunity to gamble more. Also McLean looks more assured in his double pivot role, the number of times he loses position as he tries to regain possession recklessly have reduced massively.  I am now comfortable with Kenny's presence in the side, something i have never had for a long time. Forshaw's arrival will hopefully ensure Kenny has to maintain this level of concentration.

I did say in an earlier thread on here before the season started that by the time he was "running on the grass again" Hanley was likely to be 6th in line for the CB berth, behind Duffy, Gibson, Omo, Tomkinson and Warner. 

I wish Hanley a swift recovery, but fear his future lies elsewhere now. 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,367]

33 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

I think the norwich defence has always been shaky I can't ever remember a defence that looked solid. Or a defender I totally trusted.

Is it something in football psychology where you blame your defence where actually it was a strong attacking play?

Would be interesting to see perspectives of clubs with world class defenders.

Van **** or maldini or sammer in the day.

A great example is Maguire actually, ridiculed yet at a lower level in reality he would be unplayable.

Also re Hanley, I would not expect to see him play for us again.

If you saw him hobbling about pre game Vs Millwall he's sixth months from running and probably another 8 from being able to play football.

He will probably not be at a championship level again, top level career ender  at his age.

Very sad 

Edworthy Fleming Mackay Drury

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,144]

14 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Edworthy Fleming Mackay Drury

Whittaker, Bassong, Turner and Garrido were excellent in Hughton's first season. Bassong and Turner in that season were the best CB pairing I've ever seen play for us in my 23 years of supporting the club. I know it was dour to watch at times but we were rock solid at the back and that was in the PL.

The back 4 you listed were excellent as well but it was at a lower level. 

 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,367]

4 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Whittaker, Bassong, Turner and Garrido were excellent in Hughton's first season. Bassong and Turner in that season were the best CB pairing I've ever seen play for us in my 23 years of supporting the club. I know it was dour to watch at times but we were rock solid at the back and that was in the PL.

The back 4 you listed were excellent as well but it was at a lower level. 

 

The level we're at now 😉 I also maintain that if we kept malky and kept that back four for that PL season we would have stayed up. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,782]

10 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Whittaker, Bassong, Turner and Garrido were excellent in Hughton's first season. Bassong and Turner in that season were the best CB pairing I've ever seen play for us in my 23 years of supporting the club. I know it was dour to watch at times but we were rock solid at the back and that was in the PL.

The back 4 you listed were excellent as well but it was at a lower level. 

 

 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Our defence is not better WITHOUT Hanley, it’s better WITH Duffy. If Hanley was fit and it was Gibson injured we would be better still imo. For those that feel Gibson is a better ball player, which I have seen such limited evidence of personally (not that Hanley is ‘better’ more equally ‘not very good’) - I feel Sara and Kenny coming deep to pick up the ball and make the passes is clearly our core strategy when playing from the back, negating any perceived benefit of Gibson’s supposed attributes. That said, he is what we have and a first clean sheet yesterday is what Duffy and Gunn deserve for their efforts

[Grumpy 123]

1 hour ago, Nexus_Canary said:

I think the norwich defence has always been shaky I can't ever remember a defence that looked solid. Or a defender I totally trusted.

 

I would guess that you are about 12 years old.

Foulkes, Norman,Butler,Bruce,Linigham,the list is endless.

I done think you thought that post through

Edited August 27, 2023 by Grumpy

[Segura 84]

The defence was pretty solid in 2020/21, only conceding 36 goals en route to the championship and Hanley was outstanding in it.

As others have said though, his future may lie elsewhere now, but he's been a decent servant and great value for a couple of million or whatever it was.

[Indy 3,314]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Hey, nothing like a debate on a sunday. What else we going to talk about the weather? 😉

Now if I really wanted to start causing drama I guess I should have called this thread "our attack; Better without Pukki?"

Next thread no doubt! Indeed why not debate……Smith better manager than Wagner?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,782]

4 minutes ago, Indy said:

Next thread no doubt! Indeed why not debate……Smith better manager than Wagner?

Given that Smith does not even manage a club right now you can answer that one yourself you silly boy 😉

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

55 minutes ago, Grumpy said:

I would guess that you are about 12 years old.

Foulkes, Norman,Butler,Bruce,Linigham,the list is endless.

I done think you thought that post through

Think you got your time sequence confused there boomer.

If I was indeed 12 your looking more at your defence from 6 years ago not 1906.

 

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

1 hour ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Edworthy Fleming Mackay Drury

To be fair yeh, that's the last solid.

What was that? Late 90s early naughties? Drury must have retired 10 years ago now? 

So we looking at 20 years of ropey defence?

Edited August 27, 2023 by Nexus_Canary

[Indy 3,314]

41 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Given that Smith does not even manage a club right now you can answer that one yourself you silly boy 😉

Yes but I can think of at least one poster who might disagree 😂👍

[Newtopia 519]

I have been reflecting on our CB position, i think Hanley will be a valuable member of the squad when he is fit.  The issue is who plays left CB if Gibbo is injured.  I am surprised we have not bought in another left footed CB.  Although perhaps our budget won't let us bring one in unless another CB leaves.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 hours ago, Grumpy said:

I would guess that you are about 12 years old.

Foulkes, Norman,Butler,Bruce,Linigham,the list is endless.

I done think you thought that post through

Dave Watson maybe the best of the lot

[Nuff Said 5,166]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Dave Watson maybe the best of the lot

 

5 hours ago, Grumpy said:

I would guess that you are about 12 years old.

Foulkes, Norman,Butler,Bruce,Linigham,the list is endless.

I done think you thought that post through

 

6 hours ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Edworthy Fleming Mackay Drury

You’re all missing the best of the lot.

[chicken 2,640]

8 hours ago, shefcanary said:

I did say in an earlier thread on here before the season started that by the time he was "running on the grass again" Hanley was likely to be 6th in line for the CB berth, behind Duffy, Gibson, Omo, Tomkinson and Warner. 

Cannot take that statement seriously, sorry. You really think that come Christmas, Tomkinson and Warner will be ahead of Hanley? Quite frankly that is an absolutely bonkers view. Given that Tomkinson is currently out injured and rumours are that they want to loan Warner out, not sure how even remotely close to true that is.

Losing Hanley last season was one of the reasons our season came so seriously off the rails. You can argue Gibson, but Hanley is the better defender of the two, and very much a leader at the back. On that note, Omo has simply got to step up from his performances towards the end of last season too. On those displays he isn't a £20m defender some keep wanting him to be. 

Yes, Hanley's trajectory in terms of career will now be more downwards, but it at the same time, I don't see four defenders defenitely ahead of him. If anything, Gibson could well be leaving come next summer and I wouldn't imagine they would look to keep him whether we go up or not. Needs a refresh there and he'll no doubt want the wages he's getting at the minute.

[Newtopia 519]

I genuinely hope we finesse the squad so we have 5 capable CB's and we can loan out the young players to build their experience. 

[chicken 2,640]

2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

 

 

You’re all missing the best of the lot.

People throw fits and me when I express this, but Mackay was good in that side becuase he did things the others didn't do. He was a good "ol fashuned" "stopper". His distribution was poor, his pace wasn't great, but what he lacked in skill he made up for in being a good reader of the game, a great header and new when to foul and how to tackle.

He would absolutely struggle in the modern game though. And he did, really, at Watford, the one time he did play in the premier league. He led a young side around him then and that helped in terms of pace. As it did when he had Fleming alongside him to mop up and Drury also. He was a good Division One centre back, no more.

We've had far better since. 

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

 

the Ginger Pele so under-rated   

........................

You’re all missing the best of the lot.

 

[Nuff Said 5,166]

11 minutes ago, chicken said:

Cannot take that statement seriously, sorry. You really think that come Christmas, Tomkinson and Warner will be ahead of Hanley? Quite frankly that is an absolutely bonkers view. Given that Tomkinson is currently out injured and rumours are that they want to loan Warner out, not sure how even remotely close to true that is.

Losing Hanley last season was one of the reasons our season came so seriously off the rails. You can argue Gibson, but Hanley is the better defender of the two, and very much a leader at the back. On that note, Omo has simply got to step up from his performances towards the end of last season too. On those displays he isn't a £20m defender some keep wanting him to be. 

Yes, Hanley's trajectory in terms of career will now be more downwards, but it at the same time, I don't see four defenders defenitely ahead of him. If anything, Gibson could well be leaving come next summer and I wouldn't imagine they would look to keep him whether we go up or not. Needs a refresh there and he'll no doubt want the wages he's getting at the minute.

*If*, and I fully agree it’s quite a big if, Hanley recovers fully, him with Duffy would be an awesome pairing. No question they would be our number one choices together at CB. 

(Obviously the Doc would out-perform either of them, but that’s no longer an option.)

[Ernie Wise 67]

I would offer the best pairs would be:

Bruce and Watson, or..

Butterworth and Linigan (with Phelan in front of them), or even….

Jones and Powell.

Before Jones got the serious knee injury he was considered one of the best centre backs in the uk.

Loved Malky but all of the above were better players.

[ZLF 274]

Fingers crossed hanley is back soon.

As for the question, I think it's too soon to say.   There are signs that the partnership of duffy and Gibson is getting there and hopefully it will continue to improve, with little errors reducing each game.   

My residual concerns are primarily lack of pace (hanley pre injury was quicker), and less so passing accuracy and concentration.

As me again after a dozen games or so.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by ZLF

[AJ 1,224]

If he can recover back to prime Hanley, there's no doubt Duffy and Hanley would be our best two by a country mile.