OT - The Ashes

[hogesar 9,724]

Broad gets Warner agaaaiiinnn

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

15 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

There’s lots of negativity on here, and I get that we’re now going to be on the brink of losing the series for the next 2.5 tests, but I don’t really think the scoreline so far is totally reflective of the balance of play - nor do I particularly think that ‘bazball’ is to blame.

Yes there have been faults but the majority of our issues for this series can be put down to individual errors or poor selection choices.

First test yes the declaration was perhaps too brave, but we still were in position to comfortably win that game by the last day - and should’ve been in a much better place if Bairstow didn’t miss basic stumping opportunities! If we had Foakes in for Bairstow we would’ve won the first.

The second test saw the most obvious time you could really blame a poor spell on bazball, losing 3 quick wickets stupidly, going from 188-1 to about 220-4. Some really poor shots then Stokes came out and dug in - suggests the players already should’ve been playing the situation better then they were. But we were well beaten in that game overall, with the main fault being the failure to take advantage of bowling on the first day; more so than bazball.

Let’s also remember how much these games have ebbed and flowed too. Australia have been nearly as guilty as collapsing at times too. Even yesterday they went down 90-4, then back up to 240-4, then all out for 260. 6 wickets for 23 runs? There was a similar collapse on the first test when we knocked down about 5 wickets in a morning session. They totally flapped getting Stokes out at the end of the second test, and the first innings of the second test allowed us to get to 188-1. But ultimately it doesn’t matter because they’ve edged both results so far. 

Overall I think the ‘style’ has been plenty good enough to have succeeded in at least the first test, and put us in a great position for this one, it has just been down to controllable factors which we haven’t done well enough. 

The most simply fact is that if Australia had been catching like us, and us them, then we’d be at least be 1-1 in the series right now and also with a very strong first innings lead in this test (the Marsh dropping was fatal). Is failing to make simple catches a part of bazball?

I know they’ve missed some chances too but nothing like what we’ve done.

The new style has been superb since Stokes became captain, 3-0 in Pakistan, beating New Zealand, 11 wins in 13, and I’m thoroughly enjoying this series although it is disappointing to have individual errors costing us.

We’re still a good team, and I’m hopeful we could still do something special…

To add to this as well -

For a football comparison it feels a bit like a Farkeball game where we have done plenty in the match to see a competitive scoreline, yet through superb goalkeeping on the opposition / or poor finishing from our strikers, and some clangers from our keeper - we find ourselves 0-2 down. Would we blame the 'style of play' then?

Surely rather than changing the entire philosophy of the team, we should look at tidying up on these individual errors before then seeing where that places us competitively? If we were to still find ourselves totally outmatched, then fair enough change it. But the fact is we've already seen how successful it has been in England's cricket performances for the last year or so - so why are people so quick to wave the white flag now after a couple of disappointing performances? 

[king canary 7,654]

48 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

There’s lots of negativity on here, and I get that we’re now going to be on the brink of losing the series for the next 2.5 tests, but I don’t really think the scoreline so far is totally reflective of the balance of play - nor do I particularly think that ‘bazball’ is to blame.

Yes there have been faults but the majority of our issues for this series can be put down to individual errors or poor selection choices.

First test yes the declaration was perhaps too brave, but we still were in position to comfortably win that game by the last day - and should’ve been in a much better place if Bairstow didn’t miss basic stumping opportunities! If we had Foakes in for Bairstow we would’ve won the first.

The second test saw the most obvious time you could really blame a poor spell on bazball, losing 3 quick wickets stupidly, going from 188-1 to about 220-4. Some really poor shots then Stokes came out and dug in - suggests the players already should’ve been playing the situation better then they were. But we were well beaten in that game overall, with the main fault being the failure to take advantage of bowling on the first day; more so than bazball.

Let’s also remember how much these games have ebbed and flowed too. Australia have been nearly as guilty as collapsing at times too. Even yesterday they went down 90-4, then back up to 240-4, then all out for 260. 6 wickets for 23 runs? There was a similar collapse on the first test when we knocked down about 5 wickets in a morning session. They totally flapped getting Stokes out at the end of the second test, and the first innings of the second test allowed us to get to 188-1. But ultimately it doesn’t matter because they’ve edged both results so far. 

Overall I think the ‘style’ has been plenty good enough to have succeeded in at least the first test, and put us in a great position for this one, it has just been down to controllable factors which we haven’t done well enough. 

The most simply fact is that if Australia had been catching like us, and us them, then we’d be at least be 1-1 in the series right now and also with a very strong first innings lead in this test (the Marsh dropping was fatal). Is failing to make simple catches a part of bazball?

I know they’ve missed some chances too but nothing like what we’ve done.

The new style has been superb since Stokes became captain, 3-0 in Pakistan, beating New Zealand, 11 wins in 13, and I’m thoroughly enjoying this series although it is disappointing to have individual errors costing us.

We’re still a good team, and I’m hopeful we could still do something special…

Eh, I think the style feeds into these errors though. Take Ali today. One of the dumbest wickets I've ever seen. Sky one pull and just miss the fielders, repeat again the next shot, get out. Yes it's an individual error but it comes from the philosophy installed in the team that means he has the licence to play those sorts of stupid shots. So you can't remove the individual errors from the overall Bazball concept. It's also why you see a two or three go in quick succession because the overall philosophy seems to override the basic common sense that players should have- ie if we've just lost two wickets it's important to bed in and make sure we don't lose a 3rd cheaply to send momentum completely to the opposition. 

Then the catching- to me that's a coaching a preparation error. How are the team being set up mentally? Is there a lack of focus on doing some of the basics of cricket? We've dropped far too many for it simply be coincidence. 

Then we finally come on to selection. Bairstow over Foakes at this point is criminal. Foakes is one of the best keepers in the world and he's not a bad batsman, but they love Johnny cos he makes ball go WHEEEEEEEE. So sod the keeping ability.

Its all so preventable and it does come back to the overarching set up of the team.

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

59 minutes ago, king canary said:

Eh, I think the style feeds into these errors though. Take Ali today. One of the dumbest wickets I've ever seen. Sky one pull and just miss the fielders, repeat again the next shot, get out. Yes it's an individual error but it comes from the philosophy installed in the team that means he has the licence to play those sorts of stupid shots. So you can't remove the individual errors from the overall Bazball concept. It's also why you see a two or three go in quick succession because the overall philosophy seems to override the basic common sense that players should have- ie if we've just lost two wickets it's important to bed in and make sure we don't lose a 3rd cheaply to send momentum completely to the opposition. 

Then the catching- to me that's a coaching a preparation error. How are the team being set up mentally? Is there a lack of focus on doing some of the basics of cricket? We've dropped far too many for it simply be coincidence. 

Then we finally come on to selection. Bairstow over Foakes at this point is criminal. Foakes is one of the best keepers in the world and he's not a bad batsman, but they love Johnny cos he makes ball go WHEEEEEEEE. So sod the keeping ability.

Its all so preventable and it does come back to the overarching set up of the team.

 

I would agree with most of that but I think you've missed the gist of my post. Criticising the coaching and criticising the style of play are two separate things.

I know there have been silly wickets, in the same way you sometimes see ridiculously stupid goals from teams that religiously play out from the back in football. Its frustrating as it feels like it should be much more easy to find that balance between reckless aggression and managing the situation, and we've struggled with it at times. Stokes has came in over the past couple of tests and clearly shown an understanding of this balance, and as captain surely that shows that there is a desire to manage the situation and style more than the rest of the team is? Hopefully some of the other players (Brook, Alli) can start to take note.

But with an aggressive style I think in part there should be some acceptance that some silly wickets will fall. 

On the batting collapses I would argue that Aus at least as bad if not worse than us in that respect. 23-6 yesterday! 

Agreed you could argue a coaching / preparation error on the catching, and that's fair, but again that's not really a philosophy or style issue - which was what I was trying to get across. I don't think our catching hasn't been this bad so far under bazball has it? It feels like more of a one off for the series up to now for me.

Same thing goes RE the non-selection of Foakes. That's not a question of our play style. And right on cue, another dropped catch for Bairstow (albeit a tough one this time)... at least we've somewhat made amends now. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Pretty stupid from Smith there…

[canarydan23 4,060]

The non-selection of Foakes really is baffling.

It'd be 1-1 for sure, maybe even 2-0, with the Aussies 3 wickets down without a lead in this current test.

[TheBaldOne66 697]

Has any other keeper dropped as many chances as Bairstow has in this series? The guy is an awful wicket keeper and needs to be dropped

[king canary 7,654]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I would agree with most of that but I think you've missed the gist of my post. Criticising the coaching and criticising the style of play are two separate things.

I know there have been silly wickets, in the same way you sometimes see ridiculously stupid goals from teams that religiously play out from the back in football. Its frustrating as it feels like it should be much more easy to find that balance between reckless aggression and managing the situation, and we've struggled with it at times. Stokes has came in over the past couple of tests and clearly shown an understanding of this balance, and as captain surely that shows that there is a desire to manage the situation and style more than the rest of the team is? Hopefully some of the other players (Brook, Alli) can start to take note.

But with an aggressive style I think in part there should be some acceptance that some silly wickets will fall. 

On the batting collapses I would argue that Aus at least as bad if not worse than us in that respect. 23-6 yesterday! 

Agreed you could argue a coaching / preparation error on the catching, and that's fair, but again that's not really a philosophy or style issue - which was what I was trying to get across. I don't think our catching hasn't been this bad so far under bazball has it? It feels like more of a one off for the series up to now for me.

Same thing goes RE the non-selection of Foakes. That's not a question of our play style. And right on cue, another dropped catch for Bairstow (albeit a tough one this time)... at least we've somewhat made amends now. 

I don't think though that you can separate out the style, coaching and selection. They are all influenced by the overall philosophy- there is a reason its called Bazball. For example Bairstow gets picked because he fits the style. 

I think your comparison with Farkeball is relevant but I draw a different conclusion. Firstly, I believe that the individual errors we saw in both set ups can be (partially) blamed on the style. Farkeball demanded short passing and retention of possession, thus putting players in position where those individual errors were more likely and more costly. Bazball demands constant aggression, again putting players in a position where they are significantly more likely to make the kind of mistake Mooen made, or Pope last test. 

The comparison is good because they both take aspects of their games to relative extremes. When it comes off its wonderful but when it doesn't its hugely frustrating- and the issue is that such extremes can actually be quite easy to figure out if you're a quality side. 

[AJ 1,224]

1 hour ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

Has any other keeper dropped as many chances as Bairstow has in this series? The guy is an awful wicket keeper and needs to be dropped

Whilst he has made some pretty poor drops this series statistically he is much better thanks Foakes. Personally, I prefer Jos but what do I know

[king canary 7,654]

46 minutes ago, AJ said:

Whilst he has made some pretty poor drops this series statistically he is much better thanks Foakes. Personally, I prefer Jos but what do I know

What statistics? His first class batting average isn't much better than Foakes.

[BroadstairsR 2,199]

10 hours ago, king canary said:

What statistics? His first class batting average isn't much better than Foakes.

In Foakes we probably have the best keeper of the two squads.

However, as it stands, if I was asked to select a best eleven from the two teams there would be more Aussies than England players by a bit.

Duckett would be preferred to Warner, who seems to have lost it, whilst the former has been very impressive thus far.

Root couldn't be left out.

Stokes clearly.

Wood at his fastest and best probably just gets over Starc in the absolute pace department.

Ali as the spinner .... only because Lion is out injured. If it becomes marginal between Ali and Murphy you could weigh in Ali's batting.

The rest would be Aussies, but it would be 7-4 in Australia's favour but for the Lion factor, but Broad isn't far off.

Captain? Probably Cummins more the thinking man's captain than the impulsive Stokes, who nevertheless is more inspirational.

Edited July 8, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

On 07/07/2023 at 06:17, king canary said:

Must say I'm a touch confused. Of any test series how is this the one to make you lose interest?!

It's not particularly this series, more the way cricket is heading in general. Bad sportsmanship (not just Australia) and  a lack of emphasis on the first class game. Only one day of county championship cricket left this season that will be played on a weekend, and that's the 4th day!

"Times change, and we change with them"

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,192]

23 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

Why are you still frequenting a Norwich forum if you lost interest 31 years ago? Following England has never been more exciting.

I lost interest in going to games, but I still follow the club. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,057]

Back in play. 

[Gordon Bennett 789]

Aaaaaaand off again

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,057]

5 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Aaaaaaand off again

 

Refunds for those who bought tickets for today? 

[Branston Pickle 3,680]

V annoying, I’m sure many of us have been to days like today.  In terms of the match, it feels it could be like that little half-hour at Edgbaston when it was pitch-black overhead and we lost both openers…the Aussies have definitely had the rub of these little things so far.

Edit - thankfully that shower was short!

Edited July 8, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

About time we took a wicket, taken all bloody day.......

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

Cheerio Carey 

[Midlands Yellow 4,057]

Well on top now, Australia just trying to survive the session. 

[shefcanary 2,444]

8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Well on top now, Australia just trying to survive the session. 

Might want them to, just - our openers wouldn't do well if they have to bat tonight.

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

Poor review, but I suppose they did still have all 3.

Get them all out for a chase of about 220 and just hope the weather doesn't beat us, rain forecast next two days

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

251 needed to win, very doable

[BroadstairsR 2,199]

7 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

251 needed to win, very doable

With two days left there is no need to play 20-20.

Some restraint called for.

[Nuff Said 5,173]

What a game and what a test series.  I’m a sporadic cricket watcher but I was walking round Morrisons with Test Match Special glued to my ear for the last game.

[Indy 3,314]

Well thanks to the bowlers we’re in a position of could win! Down to the batters now to actually see it out today!

Great test series no doubt….

Edited July 8, 2023 by Indy

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

9 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

With two days left there is no need to play 20-20.

Some restraint called for.

Agree completely. Baz ball can work against lesser opposition but any side that tactically show no willingness just to sit in and play from a very possibly winning position are not going to beat the best. And no bones about it, Australia are the best test side in the world. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,057]

Well done to the openers to set up a perfect platform for a modest chase tomorrow. Old Trafford win to level it and a decider at the Oval is on. 

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

42 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

With two days left there is no need to play 20-20.

Some restraint called for.

You know they probably won't 🤣

[canarydan23 4,060]

30 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Agree completely. Baz ball can work against lesser opposition but any side that tactically show no willingness just to sit in and play from a very possibly winning position are not going to beat the best. And no bones about it, Australia are the best test side in the world. 

You say that, but if it wasn't for Australia getting the better of the conditions when they bowled and took wickets during the only day when conditions favoured the bowling team, we would have won the first test at a canter.

And dropped catches cost us the second. If we took our chances at the same rate the Aussies have, then it's 2-0 with the current chase being 60-70 runs lower and in the bag.

Bad fortune and poor catching has cost us, not Bazball.