Should Webber Resign (April 2023 Poll)

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

20 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Do you trust them to do the right thing for the club though? Don’t mean that one way or another just curious if you think they will make the right decisions over the long run. 
 

Seems to me Delia and Michael’s ownership can be summed up by getting lucky now and then with success but overall huge failures such as the club going down to league one. Then letting the Webbers effectively run the club with no direct oversight whatsoever. 

What's the right thing in any situation is a subjective point of view.

Do I trust them to make decisions that they believe are in the best interests of the club in terms of delivering success? Of course; to believe otherwise is simply neurosis. Given they have access to far more insight into what has happened this season and why, that's why I wouldn't presume to question the decisions made regarding off-pitch structure and personnel just because I'm unhappy with the results.

Edited April 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What's the right thing in any situation is a subjective point of view.

Do I trust them to make decisions that they believe are in the best interests of the club in terms of delivering success? Of course; to believe otherwise is simply neurosis. Given they have access to far more insight into what has happened this season and why, that's why I wouldn't presume to question the decisions made just because I'm unhappy with the results.

In that case, what on earth are you doing on this message board? 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,560]

2 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

In that case, what on earth are you doing on this message board? 

I come here looking for insight into what's happening on the pitch from people who understand the game better than I do. You do get that from a minority like Ricardo, Parma, Hogesar, Petriix (apologies to any names I've missed as there's a longer list than that, but they're the ones that spring to mind, but it's largely drowned out by histrionics and abuse aimed at people off pitch.

If there was more talk about the actual football, what players did in games and why I'd just be a quiet lurker asking the odd question every once in a while. However, whenever results go against us, the cumulative received wisdom around here is:

• Sack the manager
• Sack the Sporting Director
• Sack the board
• Get new owners
• Replace all of the players

If it was left at that, as just opinion, then i suppose I'd live with it, but in the end it always snowballs into a cloud of discontent driven by a minority who think they know more than they do, which disrupts the club and does more harm than good. Getting success involves people failing and learning from mistakes. Nobody can do that if you're clearing out all of your decision-makers and starting from scratch.

We're one or two good players short in key positions, like DCM to being back to top rate at this level. We've seen that we actually do have fairly decent first-choices in most positions by the way things have taken a turn for the worse with injuries.

The histrionics about our problems are excessive and can be more precisely fixed with a bit of analysis over simply throwing everything built over the last five years out of the window and starting again.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I come here looking for insight into what's happening on the pitch from people who understand the game better than I do. You do get that from a minority like Ricardo, Parma, Hogesar, Petriix (apologies to any names I've missed as there's a longer list than that, but they're the ones that spring to mind, but it's largely drowned out by histrionics and abuse aimed at people off pitch.

If there was more talk about the actual football, what players did in games and why I'd just be a quiet lurker asking the odd question every once in a while. However, whenever results go against us, the cumulative received wisdom around here is:

• Sack the manager
• Sack the Sporting Director
• Sack the board
• Get new owners
• Replace all of the players

If it was left at that, as just opinion, then i suppose I'd live with it, but in the end it always snowballs into a cloud of discontent driven by a minority who think they know more than they do, which disrupts the club and does more harm than good. Getting success involves people failing and learning from mistakes. Nobody can do that if you're clearing out all of your decision-makers and starting from scratch.

We're one or two good players short in key positions, like DCM to being back to top rate at this level. We've seen that we actually do have fairly decent first-choices in most positions by the way things have taken a turn for the worse with injuries.

The histrionics about our problems are excessive and can be more precisely fixed with a bit of analysis over simply throwing everything built over the last five years out of the window and starting again.

 

A simple  chuckle would do.  Did you have to surrender your sense of humour in order to be accepted in France? 

[hogesar 9,704]

7 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Genuine question to those defending him: how many more failed recruitment windows does he get exactly? Because it's been a good few years now since he we've had a successful transfer window by any objective metric. 

We've had 3 managers in the last two seasons, and none of them have managed to get a tune out of the team Webber built. Is the thinking to simply keep sacking managers until one of them manages to work some alchemy with this bunch of journeymen? 

When you say a good few years, do you more mean the last 2 summers?

Because I'd argue this is the first time we haven't had an excellent window under Webber at Championship level.

[Barham Blitz 654]

I'm going to swim against the tide slightly and say no.  Not for the moment.

But I would very much like to see him admit to the hubris which has surrounded many of his recent decisions, explain what they were trying to do.  Admit that it hasn't worked and outline the plan moving forwards.  Including an outline as to what we are trying to do tactically and how the recruitment will be targeted in the short to mid term.

A little honesty and at least the appearance of a coherent strategy would do wonders to change the mood.  More arrogance and lack of communication about what we are trying to do and I think he'll find it increasingly uncomfortable which will inevitably end up being directed at the manager and the team as well.

And when he does go, I hope that we have a succession plan in place - even if Webber is involved in developing it.  Adams is not the answer there.

 

[chicken 2,635]

19 minutes ago, hogesar said:

When you say a good few years, do you more mean the last 2 summers?

Because I'd argue this is the first time we haven't had an excellent window under Webber at Championship level.

I think at least Sara could yet change opinion on that too.

[lake district canary 4,539]

26 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

I'm going to swim against the tide slightly and say no.  Not for the moment.

But I would very much like to see him admit to the hubris which has surrounded many of his recent decisions, explain what they were trying to do.  Admit that it hasn't worked and outline the plan moving forwards.  Including an outline as to what we are trying to do tactically and how the recruitment will be targeted in the short to mid term.

A little honesty and at least the appearance of a coherent strategy would do wonders to change the mood.  More arrogance and lack of communication about what we are trying to do and I think he'll find it increasingly uncomfortable which will inevitably end up being directed at the manager and the team as well.

And when he does go, I hope that we have a succession plan in place - even if Webber is involved in developing it.  Adams is not the answer there.

This is exactly right imo.  A bit more humility and a bit more communication with fans would help.  At the moment he is the target for two failed PL seasons and a 99.9% certainty of a failed championship season.  He needs to be humble and he needs to speak to fans. I would expect something from him at the end of the season, if not, it will fester over the summer and affect next season.

I would say - speak - and be humble about it..........or go.  

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

A simple  chuckle would do.  Did you have to surrender your sense of humour in order to be accepted in France? 

Now now Corky. Just because LYB didn't crown you as one who understands the game more than him. I was waiting for inclusion but alas I am within the sheet carriers.

[......and Smith must score. 1,347]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

This is exactly right imo.  A bit more humility and a bit more communication with fans would help.  At the moment he is the target for two failed PL seasons and a 99.9% certainty of a failed championship season.  He needs to be humble and he needs to speak to fans. I would expect something from him at the end of the season, if not, it will fester over the summer and affect next season.

I would say - speak - and be humble about it..........or go.  

Be humble or go ? Please close the door on your way out Stuart.

A man with a huge ego, arrogance and virtually zero sense of humour. Anyone ever seen him even chuckle never mind laugh ?

It would be nice to hear him admit that he's good at " p*ssing the money up the wall " like others before him but there's more chance of Essex admitting he's howling at the moon...

[norfolkngood 1,087]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

When you say a good few years, do you more mean the last 2 summers?

Because I'd argue this is the first time we haven't had an excellent window under Webber at Championship level.

 

lets face it the PL windows he didn't even buy outstanding Championship level players as results and Performances show 

Thats how bad the signings were in the PL windows which to sign good Championship level players should have been the easiest time ,

 

[king canary 7,619]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

I think at least Sara could yet change opinion on that too.

I think even he goes for £20m and we finished 8th-10th I'd still struggle to see this summer as a success.

 

 

[chicken 2,635]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think even he goes for £20m and we finished 8th-10th I'd still struggle to see this summer as a success.

 

 

I think it depends on the criteria. People are suggesting our signings haven't been good, or at least haven't delivered to aid success.

That can be argued of the 2021 summer in preperation for the premier league.

I'm not so sure it can be as easily argued, at least, for the summers prior.

Last summer isn't so clear cut either. I've said elsewhere, on Parma's thread, on other threads, I suspect the changing of the guard at board level has had/is having an impact on that.

I also said come the end of the season will people think differently on holding on to Pukki and not moving on some others sooner and going for a bigger refresh then? As Burnley managed.

I would argue that is more strategy than failure in the transfer market. And like I say, I suspect it has more to do with the ownership situation.

Hindsight is wonderful, I think I would have sold Sinani, Hugill, Cantwell, Aarons and Pukki last summer. You'd hope you could raise another £15m-£20m to reinvest. I would add Gibson if a decent replacement was sourced. Perhaps keep Zimbo of the two.

Different strategy, riskier. Still would have signed Sara and Nunez though.

[chicken 2,635]

20 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

 

lets face it the PL windows he didn't even buy outstanding Championship level players as results and Performances show 

Thats how bad the signings were in the PL windows which to sign good Championship level players should have been the easiest time ,

 

They signed players with potential as they couldn't land the proven players without better finances. It's been widely reported.

At this level, a one in three striker aged 23 is easily worth £8m. Plenty of evidence for that.

Rashica is supposedly valued at around 7m euros two years into his contract. Suggests that the 9m Euros we paid probably isn't far off.

It was a failure as those players, bar perhaps Lees-Melou, needed more time to adapt, and many were signed so late on they had no preseason with us.

[Monty13 2,235]

3 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

I'm going to swim against the tide slightly and say no.  Not for the moment.

But I would very much like to see him admit to the hubris which has surrounded many of his recent decisions, explain what they were trying to do.  Admit that it hasn't worked and outline the plan moving forwards.  Including an outline as to what we are trying to do tactically and how the recruitment will be targeted in the short to mid term.

A little honesty and at least the appearance of a coherent strategy would do wonders to change the mood.  More arrogance and lack of communication about what we are trying to do and I think he'll find it increasingly uncomfortable which will inevitably end up being directed at the manager and the team as well.

And when he does go, I hope that we have a succession plan in place - even if Webber is involved in developing it.  Adams is not the answer there.

 

I think the issue is, as I very much agree with you, I don’t think he’s capable of making the change and doing what’s required. I’d be quite happy to be proved wrong personally, I just don’t think it’s going to happen.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Now now Corky. Just because LYB didn't crown you as one who understands the game more than him. I was waiting for inclusion but alas I am within the sheet carriers.

Yep, i am bereft as well. 

[shefcanary 2,412]

The excellent @Parma Ham's gone mouldy & @Dom J Demorr have added what I think is a more relevant discourse on the current malaise at Carrow Road in the Parma's State of the Nation thread. I am clearly of a similar mind, as I have not voted on this thread because the problem at the moment is at Board level and has been for three years now. There is no-one on the Board with the ostensible responsibility of challenging the Webber's, mentoring them and educating them on the true values, mission and vision of the club. In this absence, we now face a period of organisational drift where the club has seemingly forgotten its raison d'etre, which is seemingly not solely to seek EPL status long term, but to entertain the supporters by playing the Norwich City way.

If Webber had been challenged appropriately against the true values, mission and vision of the club during the period when we gained promotion to the EPL for the 2nd time during his tenure, we might not be in the mess we are now in. The lack of leadership from the Board, which some of us have picked up on a long time ago, needs addressing and fairly quickly now. 

[repman 635]

I think it's very easy to say the players aren't good enough when the team is performing badly. I do have my doubts about the quality of a number of players in the squad but I think the biggest factor in our underperformance is that the side hasn't been well coached for the last 2 seasons.  

Webber 5 years ago was a bit of a revolutionary who helped steer the club ahead of the curve, taking bold decisions in his managerial appointments. Now he's become the thing he railed against when he joined, making safe appointments.

If he can regain that mindset from when he first joined I doubt there are many better options out there for the job, the worry is that he's far too comfortable and lacks the awareness to make the changes.

[Midlands Yellow 4,009]

No vote fighting back, Delia, Michael, and the Webbers must have joined this MB and voted. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

When you say a good few years, do you more mean the last 2 summers?

Because I'd argue this is the first time we haven't had an excellent window under Webber at Championship level.

Other than Pukki or Buendia how many other signings would you say have been a rave success? Almost all of the other successful players I can tell since he’s been here have come through our Academy system or were bought before him as youth signings like Maddison and Godfrey. 

[The Bunny 310]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

When you say a good few years, do you more mean the last 2 summers?

Because I'd argue this is the first time we haven't had an excellent window under Webber at Championship level.

Restricting it to championship level seems a little arbitrary. It's 3 of the last 4 summers, and the damage to the squad from the last two, including the failure to replace older players, feels long-term, ie: this lot are not going to be competing for promotion any time soon. 

It's a genuine question though and I'd love to know the answer: In your opinion, how many more failed transfer windows do we have before we hold the sporting director responsible?

[hogesar 9,704]

9 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Restricting it to championship level seems a little arbitrary. It's 3 of the last 4 summers, and the damage to the squad from the last two, including the failure to replace older players, feels long-term, ie: this lot are not going to be competing for promotion any time soon. 

It's a genuine question though and I'd love to know the answer: In your opinion, how many more failed transfer windows do we have before we hold the sporting director responsible?

I think you hold him at-least partially responsible for the first failed transfer window, let-alone a second or third. I just don't think it necessarily has to equate to that person being sacked. If we look at the income the football club has generated under Webbers time here, it far exceeds his outlay, even moreso if you only decided to identify the "wasted" outlay.

 

[hogesar 9,704]

29 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Other than Pukki or Buendia how many other signings would you say have been a rave success? Almost all of the other successful players I can tell since he’s been here have come through our Academy system or were bought before him as youth signings like Maddison and Godfrey. 

Take our first promotion season where we sold Maddison to cope with significant financial problems from before Webbers time here. On that basis you've got the likes of 

- Krul

- Steipermann

- Leitner

- Trybull

- Zimmerman

- Vrancic

- Hanley

- Rhodes

- Sara

Who have all delivered above their expectation - there was certainly no-one claiming the likes of Vrancic, Trybull and Zimmerman were signings of a team pushing for promotion, let alone going and winning the title.

They haven't succeeded at Prem level but if anyone seriously thought with a few million to reshape the whole squad at that point, after finishing 8th in the Championship, Webber would be capable of signing 6 or 7 prem quality players then that's completely unrealistic. For me, the above have delivered.

[The Bunny 310]

12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think you hold him at-least partially responsible for the first failed transfer window, let-alone a second or third. I just don't think it necessarily has to equate to that person being sacked.

Ok, I should have been more specific: at what point would it equate to the sporting director being sacked? 

I mean, we've already sacked two managers at this point, but it's pretty apparent that the problem runs deeper than that. Is it reasonable that someone else should be in the firing line next time? 

[The Bunny 310]

14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Take our first promotion season where we sold Maddison to cope with significant financial problems from before Webbers time here. On that basis you've got the likes of 

- Krul

- Steipermann

- Leitner

- Trybull

- Zimmerman

- Vrancic

- Hanley

- Rhodes

- Sara

Who have all delivered above their expectation - there was certainly no-one claiming the likes of Vrancic, Trybull and Zimmerman were signings of a team pushing for promotion, let alone going and winning the title.

They haven't succeeded at Prem level but if anyone seriously thought with a few million to reshape the whole squad at that point, after finishing 8th in the Championship, Webber would be capable of signing 6 or 7 prem quality players then that's completely unrealistic. For me, the above have delivered.

All of those were signed 4+ years ago except Sara*, and that's really the root of the problem. And then we have the problem of effective players being allowed to leave for nothing (or next to nothing) and not being replaced (e.g Vrancic, Cantwell, Pukki). 

*it feels a bit early to brand Sara a success IMO. He's looked unstoppable at times, but lately he's dropped off the pace again and has made a lot of mistakes which have led to goals. 

[Barham Blitz 654]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

I think the issue is, as I very much agree with you, I don’t think he’s capable of making the change and doing what’s required. I’d be quite happy to be proved wrong personally, I just don’t think it’s going to happen.

I don't disagree - it was very much a what I would like to see rather than a what I expect to see kind of post ...

[hogesar 9,704]

19 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

Ok, I should have been more specific: at what point would it equate to the sporting director being sacked? 

I mean, we've already sacked two managers at this point, but it's pretty apparent that the problem runs deeper than that. Is it reasonable that someone else should be in the firing line next time? 

Comparing to sacked managers is difficult for me as I personally wouldn't have sacked Farke in the first place!

If I was an owner, I'd look at the overall picture and realise that Webber has brought in far more money than he's spent. He came in with us under significant financial pressure, got Farke on board - gave Maddison the license to express himself - sold him for good money to relieve that pressure. Then spent minimal money comparatively on a squad that won the title.

Then.....

12 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

All of those were signed 4+ years ago except Sara*, and that's really the root of the problem. And then we have the problem of effective players being allowed to leave for nothing (or next to nothing) and not being replaced (e.g Vrancic, Cantwell, Pukki). 

*it feels a bit early to brand Sara a success IMO. He's looked unstoppable at times, but lately he's dropped off the pace again and has made a lot of mistakes which have led to goals. 

We also signed Skipp and Gibson who were both huge players for the second title winning season. For again, in modern terms, small amounts of money.

But, as you rightly point out, I'd look at the recent trend of Webber with concern. Is he on a downward spiral? How are our meetings going? Does he acknowledge the poor signings behind closed doors, does he have a plan for them? Has he presented a way of recouping money - do we have bids for Sara on the table? Have we managed to sell Rashica for no less than we paid? Despite the poor signings have we recovered financially because of Sara interest?

Then I guess you look and say even in a failure of a summer we have one signing who's apparently interesting European and Prem clubs in Sara (I agree with you, I think he's far from the finished article but understand teams interest in potential).

So can we find someone who's willing to come here who we think can do better? What do the Americans think? They claim the Webber's were integral to getting them on board, do they still believe in them?

[king canary 7,619]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

I think it depends on the criteria. People are suggesting our signings haven't been good, or at least haven't delivered to aid success.

That can be argued of the 2021 summer in preperation for the premier league.

I'm not so sure it can be as easily argued, at least, for the summers prior.

I think the criteria is for assessing a transfer window is quite simple all things considered- did our activity put us in the best place to achieve our goals? So it isn't just about who you did sign, it is also about who you didn't.

This summer we went it with a pretty clear black hole in defensive midfield. We failed to fill it through the entirely avoidable error of signing a player to fill the role who hadn't played for 6 months. 

We also made the entirely avoidable decision to go into a 46 game season, with fixture congestion even more apparent due to the oddly positioned World Cup with only three senior central defenders. We compounded this foolishness in January by loaning out the presumptive next in line from the youth ranks and failing to increase our cover, which we are paying the price for now.

If we do manage to sell Sara for a good fee then it clearly hasn't been a financial disaster but on the pitch the squad was badly assembled and fell short of where it should have been. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Take our first promotion season where we sold Maddison to cope with significant financial problems from before Webbers time here. On that basis you've got the likes of 

- Krul

- Steipermann

- Leitner

- Trybull

- Zimmerman

- Vrancic

- Hanley

- Rhodes

- Sara

Who have all delivered above their expectation - there was certainly no-one claiming the likes of Vrancic, Trybull and Zimmerman were signings of a team pushing for promotion, let alone going and winning the title.

They haven't succeeded at Prem level but if anyone seriously thought with a few million to reshape the whole squad at that point, after finishing 8th in the Championship, Webber would be capable of signing 6 or 7 prem quality players then that's completely unrealistic. For me, the above have delivered.

Rhodes was a known striker and Hanley had been at Blackburn a few years. I wouldn't agree Sara has delivered above expectation. I think most of us expected at leadt, ifnotmorethan he has delivered.

But I agreevthe European players all delivered especially for whst it cost us. In fact, I would argue we haven't replaced Stiepermann as a No10. 

[chicken 2,635]

46 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Rhodes was a known striker and Hanley had been at Blackburn a few years. I wouldn't agree Sara has delivered above expectation. I think most of us expected at leadt, ifnotmorethan he has delivered.

But I agreevthe European players all delivered especially for whst it cost us. In fact, I would argue we haven't replaced Stiepermann as a No10. 

Yup. Hanley had also been at Newcastle on their way to promotion too.

Rhodes was so well known he had already been transfered for £10m+ in his career and it was largely thought he'd score a lot of goals for us and not this little heard of, relatively failed journeyman, Teemu Pukki.

Also worth highlighting again the two obvious things:

1) Stiepermann, Vrancic, Zimbo, Hanley, Leitner, Hernandez were all brought in during the first season.

2) None of the European players we signed then would be eligeable to sign for us now under the current points system introduced post Brexit.

Edit: I especially agree with Stiepermann, vastly underated by many. I think what made him so good for us was that he was an unauthodox No.10. Much taller and more languid than your traditional No.10. He had that unpredictability but also very much on the same page as Pukki, Buendia and Cantwell.

Edited April 25, 2023 by chicken