There is something fundamentally wrong with this squad

[Capt. Pants 4,300]

1 hour ago, kenfoggo said:

There are many things that are fundamentally wrong with this squad, true. What those things are will vary with each supporters point of view. My own opinion is that the mindset of the players is completely out of whack. The core of senior players, the old lags, have become complacent and this poor attitude permeates down through the junior players to infect the whole squad. The prime example is Hanley. He is the one player that should set the tone , who should provide leadership, who should be inspirational to the others. And yet Hanley looks to be the most tired, jaded and bereft of ideas player that we have . From consistently passing square or backward , to knocking in goals for the opposition, to just shrugging his shoulders and accepting the losing mentality of the squad. He needs to be moved on rather than being considered as undroppable and a permanent fixture on the team sheet. He has imbued this squad with  the acceptance of mediocrity . He is not fit for purpose. He was not good enough last season and has been appalling this season. He needs to be moved on.

Agree with much of this although I don't think you can refer to a core of senior players and then focus on Hanley alone as the one to be moved on. We certainly need an upgrade in that position but I'm not convinced Gibson and Omobamidele are that much better. What we need is competition for places with possibly Hanley being dropped as a starter.

There has been a lot of talk about mindsets and mentality and fundamentally we shouldn't have first team players being selected who don't want to play EPL. I must admit I thought our mentality was a Smith thing, I'm not so sure now.

What is clear we need players that are hungry for success and will run through walls to get it - a bit like what Lambert had. This current squad has had its day  I'm afraid.

 

 

 

[rock bus 872]

15 minutes ago, king canary said:

I was amazed during that period v Stoke where we were totally hemmed in and we were giving chance after chance up that nobody was getting in each others faces, trying to rally. Instead after each chance the defenders just trudged back forward, heads down. They looked broken.

Totally agree with this.

I was at the game and said this to my son at the time. They were battering us and the lack of reaction from the players was embarrassing. Gunn made some decent saves in a row but is was noticeable that neither him or any of the other players were giving anyone a rollicking for making stupid mistakes.

Not sure if it is a lack of passion, commitment, confidence or just a combination but the team really needs a few players who will grab the game by the scruff of the neck but also be prepared to lead on the pitch and make sure all players are contributing. 

Hanley is not the inspirational leader we need and unfortunately players like Pukki, Aarons and Tzolis just look miserable and fed up.

We need to be looking at bringing in some new players who can cause a spark in this team - Nunez and Sara are decent players but they wont build the team spirit that we need (partially because they have the added issue of having to learn a new language!)

[Yellow Fever 3,844]

9 minutes ago, rock bus said:

Totally agree with this.

I was at the game and said this to my son at the time. They were battering us and the lack of reaction from the players was embarrassing. Gunn made some decent saves in a row but is was noticeable that neither him or any of the other players were giving anyone a rollicking for making stupid mistakes.

Not sure if it is a lack of passion, commitment, confidence or just a combination but the team really needs a few players who will grab the game by the scruff of the neck but also be prepared to lead on the pitch and make sure all players are contributing. 

Hanley is not the inspirational leader we need and unfortunately players like Pukki, Aarons and Tzolis just look miserable and fed up.

We need to be looking at bringing in some new players who can cause a spark in this team - Nunez and Sara are decent players but they wont build the team spirit that we need (partially because they have the added issue of having to learn a new language!)

Yes - I was wondering the other day if it makes sense to move the team captaincy - say to McLean ?

Edited March 20, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[kenfoggo 247]

Capt Pants- I am not just focusing on Hanley , although as Captain he is Wagner’s (and the Club’s) representative on the pitch. I am sure that Wagner does not tell the team to drop their heads and seem unenthusiastic. No. Hanley should be leading, setting an example and encouraging the side;  I see absolutely no evidence of this on the field. There are others in the squad who have the same characteristics and I agree with others that there needs to be a clear out of the players who are content to be in the Championship and an influx of players who want to prove themselves, are ambitious and who will give 100% to the challenge every game.

Edited March 20, 2023 by kenfoggo

[Indy 3,323]

Kingo and others are bang on, there’s a severe lack of leaders in our squad, on the pitch we’re happy to give long term contracts as rewards rather than looking to future, McLean is a prime example on accepting mediocrity in players who’ve he’d their time with us! Sometimes it’s best to move out as said Broken Squad or it installs an acceptance that losing is OK.

Funny that the core of players are making the same mistakes at this level as they did at top level. Sometimes the new manager needs to sweep the deadwood out the door and move on, there’s a massive summer coming up.

[hogesar 9,776]

I suppose a fair question, whilst not being the sole solution, is did we have more "vocal" leaders during our last promotion season? Skipp was a very quiet player. From what I remember the core of leadership was Gibson, Hanley and Mclean.

I don't think leadership in itself is a big problem - it only ever get's mentioned when things are going badly. Unless these players have just stopped leading?

Ironically, when Mclean wasn't playing as well (but still decent) - he was ridiculed by fans for trying to lead and organise (the pointing jibe). 

Just to add some balance 🙂

 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,080]

On 15/03/2023 at 22:55, littleyellowbirdie said:

Partly agree, but I think overall it was Farkeball that was a dead end.

Mowbray's comments questioning our approach summed it up for me. As a club, we're too obsessed with seeing the players play a certain way rather than allowing a way to develop that's best for them to get the right results consistently.

Ask Stoke, Bolton or Burnley fans how much fun it is staying in the PL by playing pragmatic, defence-first football with a team full of 6ft3 lumps throwing it into the box and pumping every free kick 'in the mixer'.  I genuinely think if we went down that route I wouldn't bother anymore.  The problem is with those teams is they have a ceiling and even reaching that ceiling gives you no joy whatsoever.  Whereas a Farke-style football has a higher ceiling and is great to watch along the way.  The problem with Farke's approach is that at a higher level, it becomes difficult with inferior players.  But I'd still take it every time.

[rock bus 872]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I suppose a fair question, whilst not being the sole solution, is did we have more "vocal" leaders during our last promotion season? Skipp was a very quiet player. From what I remember the core of leadership was Gibson, Hanley and Mclean.

I don't think leadership in itself is a big problem - it only ever get's mentioned when things are going badly. Unless these players have just stopped leading?

Ironically, when Mclean wasn't playing as well (but still decent) - he was ridiculed by fans for trying to lead and organise (the pointing jibe). 

Just to add some balance 🙂

 

That's a very good counter point and I'd tend to agree but would say players like Krul and Zimmerman were in the team and being more vocal. You also have players on the periphery eg Tettey, Rhodes, Hernandez who would be wise heads or enthusiastic people on training pitch and in dressing room. You can then add on players who led by example - Pukki and Buendia were so good it would inspire people. Skipp, Aarons, Godfrey, Cantwell having their best seasons and bringing some youthful enthusiasm to the party.

It is of course always easier when you are winning but when times are tough is when you need the 'characters' - I guess it is a bit of a chicken or the egg question.

But in all honesty if you were stepping out in the team on Saturday which team mate would you see as being an inspiration or one you would pull out all the stops to work hard for? I honestly cant name one who would really inspire me to be a better player (Sara if on song?)

[nutty nigel 7,653]

I don't disagree about being them being vocal. Problem being they won the division with record points by not being vocal. You don't need to be so vocal in lockdown football. 

If the continual selection of Hanley and others is the problem this season then the only way to fix it is change the guy making the selections because his judgement must be flawed. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens in a few months time in the summer.

A few months is a long time in football although a couple of hours seemed forever when waiting to find out what my mother's wait and see pudding was.

Edited March 20, 2023 by nutty nigel
😉

[Capt. Pants 4,300]

1 hour ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Ask Stoke, Bolton or Burnley fans how much fun it is staying in the PL by playing pragmatic, defence-first football with a team full of 6ft3 lumps throwing it into the box and pumping every free kick 'in the mixer'.  I genuinely think if we went down that route I wouldn't bother anymore.  The problem is with those teams is they have a ceiling and even reaching that ceiling gives you no joy whatsoever.  Whereas a Farke-style football has a higher ceiling and is great to watch along the way.  The problem with Farke's approach is that at a higher level, it becomes difficult with inferior players.  But I'd still take it every time.

You're absolutely right but there is a mid-ground, which I sense is what Wagner is trying to achieve although I'm not quite sure what was going on at Stoke. I'll put it down as an experiment which whilst earned us a point wasn't a great watch and won't earn us many points even against poorer teams. 

[Yellow Fever 3,844]

2 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Ask Stoke, Bolton or Burnley fans how much fun it is staying in the PL by playing pragmatic, defence-first football with a team full of 6ft3 lumps throwing it into the box and pumping every free kick 'in the mixer'.  I genuinely think if we went down that route I wouldn't bother anymore.  The problem is with those teams is they have a ceiling and even reaching that ceiling gives you no joy whatsoever.  Whereas a Farke-style football has a higher ceiling and is great to watch along the way.  The problem with Farke's approach is that at a higher level, it becomes difficult with inferior players.  But I'd still take it every time.

Yes - but I don't enjoy watching us get beat every week either!

[Worthy Nigelton 1,080]

21 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes - but I don't enjoy watching us get beat every week either!

I agree, ideally I'd like us to play great passing football and win 4-0 every Saturday but I don't support Man City!

[king canary 7,681]

1 hour ago, rock bus said:

That's a very good counter point and I'd tend to agree but would say players like Krul and Zimmerman were in the team and being more vocal. You also have players on the periphery eg Tettey, Rhodes, Hernandez who would be wise heads or enthusiastic people on training pitch and in dressing room. You can then add on players who led by example - Pukki and Buendia were so good it would inspire people. Skipp, Aarons, Godfrey, Cantwell having their best seasons and bringing some youthful enthusiasm to the party.

It is of course always easier when you are winning but when times are tough is when you need the 'characters' - I guess it is a bit of a chicken or the egg question.

But in all honesty if you were stepping out in the team on Saturday which team mate would you see as being an inspiration or one you would pull out all the stops to work hard for? I honestly cant name one who would really inspire me to be a better player (Sara if on song?)

Krul certainly was very vocal- I think this was in part why Wagner put him back into the team initially.

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't think leadership in itself is a big problem - it only ever get's mentioned when things are going badly. Unless these players have just stopped leading?

It has been mentioned before though- Smith I believe highlighted how quiet he found the squad in comparison to others he works with. It has also been mentioned as one of the reasons that Sorenson maybe isn't considered a starter. It is just more noticeable since the defensive deficiencies have become more and more apparent

[hogesar 9,776]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

Krul certainly was very vocal- I think this was in part why Wagner put him back into the team initially.

It has been mentioned before though- Smith I believe highlighted how quiet he found the squad in comparison to others he works with. It has also been mentioned as one of the reasons that Sorenson maybe isn't considered a starter. It is just more noticeable since the defensive deficiencies have become more and more apparent

Yeah I think Krul is a decent example.

I guess we've been successful under Farke with a comparatively quiet squad. Maybe you don't need the stereotypical leadership of blood, guts and thunder that is traditionally associated with football anymore? 

Like you say when things go wrong it get's mentioned and picked up far more and it's easy to look at that as a problem. And it might be. The second promotion season under Farke had no fan pressure inside the ground - maybe that 'unusual' season has us with slight misconceptions?

For example, most fans would say Gibson was fantastic that Championship season but now people call him a slow donkey who shouldn't be near the side. Maybe he was only fantastic without the pressure of fans? Maybe he was that good he made Hanley look better too? 

Certainly remember Omo coming into the side and looking naturally gifted and able. When he comes on now I don't think the same.

[repman 636]

2 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Ask Stoke, Bolton or Burnley fans how much fun it is staying in the PL by playing pragmatic, defence-first football with a team full of 6ft3 lumps throwing it into the box and pumping every free kick 'in the mixer'.  I genuinely think if we went down that route I wouldn't bother anymore.  The problem is with those teams is they have a ceiling and even reaching that ceiling gives you no joy whatsoever.  Whereas a Farke-style football has a higher ceiling and is great to watch along the way.  The problem with Farke's approach is that at a higher level, it becomes difficult with inferior players.  But I'd still take it every time.

I think the perfect scenario is what happened with Brighton, pretty dire football under Hughton for a few years to keep themselves in the PL, but they always made signings with an eye on evolving their style and then brought Potter in to make that happen. Even under Potter it wasn't plain sailing but they were getting similar results but with a better style which as you said had a higher ceiling, which they've certainly started reaching over the last year.

It'll be interesting to see if Brentford do similar, I saw a stat that they haven't won a game this season when they have more possession. They've been successful as a backs against the wall side for the last 2 years but teams are probably starting to smarten up to that.

If we get promoted ever again we need to be working from a much more solid base defensively than we have the previous 2 times, Wagner I think can do that but I wonder if we'll produce enough at the other end as a result.

[urdie_Canary 33]

On 15/03/2023 at 22:49, Jim Smith said:

Both in terms of its make up and it’s mentality.

they had worked so hard to get back into contention and then produce two displays like we’ve seen in the last four days to basically chuck it all away.

They don’t seem to really want promotion and they are gutless, sloppy and complacent. I find it very hard to watch to be honest and i can’t wait to see the back of a few if them.

Webber has failed. Completely. He is ruining us and will leave us in a disastrous state of allowed to continue.

More than anything though you look at the top half of the premier league with the likes of Brentford, Brighton and Fulham holding their own and you realise what a complete and utter waste we have made of the opportunities that we have had. I hope I’m wrong but I fear it may be a long time before we have them again. That will ultimately be Delia’s legacy. The club not fulfilling its potential and being left behind by other clubs who take their chances. 

 

Totally agree with this. Fed up with seeing players in their comfort zone, just ticking over / just doing enough / going through the motions however you want to put it.

I mean how ever much has Aarons regressed as a player, pretty much no strength in any area what so ever now, cant skin a player to save his life, terrible positioning, poor crossing and so on. Yes he has been loyal which is great, but come on, the mentality needs to be questioned. Go back 2 or 3 seasons ago surely he should have had the drive to better himself, but no he stays here and stays in his comfort zone, which I'm afraid is all too common with this Norwich squad, far too much deadwood. We are far too nice as  a club.

Yes Webber is at fault to some extent, but tbh players like Nunez and Sara have been good and will likely be sold on for double the fee which is a  big part of his remit. Of course others have not been so successful but that is football, no clubs get all transfers bang on.

[rock bus 872]

9 minutes ago, urdie_Canary said:

Totally agree with this. Fed up with seeing players in their comfort zone, just ticking over / just doing enough / going through the motions however you want to put it.

I mean how ever much has Aarons regressed as a player, pretty much no strength in any area what so ever now, cant skin a player to save his life, terrible positioning, poor crossing and so on. Yes he has been loyal which is great, but come on, the mentality needs to be questioned. Go back 2 or 3 seasons ago surely he should have had the drive to better himself, but no he stays here and stays in his comfort zone, which I'm afraid is all too common with this Norwich squad, far too much deadwood. We are far too nice as  a club.

Yes Webber is at fault to some extent, but tbh players like Nunez and Sara have been good and will likely be sold on for double the fee which is a  big part of his remit. Of course others have not been so successful but that is football, no clubs get all transfers bang on.

Another good point which has made me think.

I know everyone wants to blame Webber but the players who are really annoying me are ones like Hanley, Sorrensen, Idah, Gibson, Dimi, McLean, Pukki and Aarons (as commented above it is incredible how poor he has become!). These are the ones showing no leadership and appearing to just be going through the motions with no real desire.

None of these are what I would call 'Webber type' players even if he was here when they arrived. The only ones who give me any hope are Sara, Nunez and Gibbs who are the type of 'punts' I think Webber does well. I'd even argue that if one of Tzolis, Sargent or Rashica comes good for us then that's an ok return.

Edited March 20, 2023 by rock bus

[king canary 7,681]

25 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah I think Krul is a decent example.

I guess we've been successful under Farke with a comparatively quiet squad. Maybe you don't need the stereotypical leadership of blood, guts and thunder that is traditionally associated with football anymore? 

Like you say when things go wrong it get's mentioned and picked up far more and it's easy to look at that as a problem. And it might be. The second promotion season under Farke had no fan pressure inside the ground - maybe that 'unusual' season has us with slight misconceptions?

For example, most fans would say Gibson was fantastic that Championship season but now people call him a slow donkey who shouldn't be near the side. Maybe he was only fantastic without the pressure of fans? Maybe he was that good he made Hanley look better too? 

Certainly remember Omo coming into the side and looking naturally gifted and able. When he comes on now I don't think the same.

Who knows. Maybe those players had higher confidence levels, maybe we underrated the leadership and inspiration delivered by Buendia along with Krul. Maybe Hanley and Gibson were have got complacent or lost their mojo. All I know is watching the team both on the TV and in person the difference between them and others is stark. 

[mrdi 374]

My problem with Hanley as captain is that he’s often the first to go down to his haunches or to drop his head. He should be the last to do that and should be picking up anyone who does. 

He’s not a leader, he’s become a passenger. 

Edited March 20, 2023 by mrdi

[Cowboy 206]

12 minutes ago, mrdi said:

My problem with Hanley as captain is that he’s often the first to go down to his haunches or to drop his head. He should be the last to do that and should be picking up anyone who does. 

He’s not a leader, he’s become a passenger. 

He's just taking the opportunity to do a bit of grazing! 😬

[Worthy Nigelton 1,080]

2 hours ago, repman said:

I think the perfect scenario is what happened with Brighton, pretty dire football under Hughton for a few years to keep themselves in the PL, but they always made signings with an eye on evolving their style and then brought Potter in to make that happen. Even under Potter it wasn't plain sailing but they were getting similar results but with a better style which as you said had a higher ceiling, which they've certainly started reaching over the last year.

It'll be interesting to see if Brentford do similar, I saw a stat that they haven't won a game this season when they have more possession. They've been successful as a backs against the wall side for the last 2 years but teams are probably starting to smarten up to that.

If we get promoted ever again we need to be working from a much more solid base defensively than we have the previous 2 times, Wagner I think can do that but I wonder if we'll produce enough at the other end as a result.

Good post.

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

5 hours ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Ask Stoke, Bolton or Burnley fans how much fun it is staying in the PL by playing pragmatic, defence-first football with a team full of 6ft3 lumps throwing it into the box and pumping every free kick 'in the mixer'.  I genuinely think if we went down that route I wouldn't bother anymore.  The problem is with those teams is they have a ceiling and even reaching that ceiling gives you no joy whatsoever.  Whereas a Farke-style football has a higher ceiling and is great to watch along the way.  The problem with Farke's approach is that at a higher level, it becomes difficult with inferior players.  But I'd still take it every time.

Canary fan in Bolton here. Bolton were not remotely a long-ball side in the latter days of Allardyce's reign. Do you really think a "long-ball" team would have had the likes of Jay-Jay Okocha, Youri Djorkaeff, Nicolas Anelka, Stelios Giannakopoulos, Ivan Campo, Fernando Hierro and Eidur Gudjohnsen playing for them?

Bolton were a classic example of a team who evolved into a decent ball-playing side in their later days, but then they lost Allardyce and financial trouble caught up with them.

Edited March 20, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Worthy Nigelton 1,080]

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Canary fan in Bolton here. Bolton were not remotely a long-ball side in the latter days of Allardyce's reign. Do you really think a "long-ball" team would have had the likes of Jay-Jay Okocha, Youri Djorkaeff, Nicolas Anelka, Stelios Giannakopoulos, Ivan Campo, Fernando Hierro and Eidur Gudjohnsen playing for them?

Bolton were a classic example of a team who evolved into a decent ball-playing side in their later days, but then they lost Allardyce and financial trouble caught up with them.

They weren't as bad as Stoke or Burnley in fairness and did have some quality players in that team, but they were set up as safety-first and had no problem using a long throw-in or long free kick for the likes of Davies and Nolan.

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

3 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

They weren't as bad as Stoke or Burnley in fairness and did have some quality players in that team, but they were set up as safety-first and had no problem using a long throw-in or long free kick for the likes of Davies and Nolan.

To be fair, when they first hit the PL under Allardyce they were every bit as primeval as anything Pulis and Dyche could cook up, but they did gradually evolve over time. I've always said Allardyce is the PL's great pragmatist, but those later Bolton sides could play.

Pretty sure I heard he tried grabbing Pep Guardiola on a free from Barcelona but the attempted move didn't stick.

Edited March 20, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[king canary 7,681]

6 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

They weren't as bad as Stoke or Burnley in fairness and did have some quality players in that team, but they were set up as safety-first and had no problem using a long throw-in or long free kick for the likes of Davies and Nolan.

I always find the snobbiness around set pieces odd. Using long throws and free kicks isn't somehow lesser to playing 400 passes before taking a shot.

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I always find the snobbiness around set pieces odd. Using long throws and free kicks isn't somehow lesser to playing 400 passes before taking a shot.

Exactly. If it goes under the bar and between the posts, it doesn't matter if it's a thirty-yard thunderbast*rd or a one-yard p-issroller that scraped in off your butt, they all count as one.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,080]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I always find the snobbiness around set pieces odd. Using long throws and free kicks isn't somehow lesser to playing 400 passes before taking a shot.

I'm not saying it is but I don't want to watch that for 500 odd quid a year.

[Indy 3,323]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly. If it goes under the bar and between the posts, it doesn't matter if it's a thirty-yard thunderbast*rd or a one-yard p-issroller that scraped in off your butt, they all count as one.

 

15 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly. If it goes under the bar and between the posts, it doesn't matter if it's a thirty-yard thunderbast*rd or a one-yard p-issroller that scraped in off your butt, they all count as one.

That sums up our defence at present, 400 hundred pointless passes and a clock up leading to a one yard piisroller own goal.

[Robert N. LiM 4,573]

2 hours ago, repman said:

I think the perfect scenario is what happened with Brighton, pretty dire football under Hughton for a few years to keep themselves in the PL, but they always made signings with an eye on evolving their style and then brought Potter in to make that happen. Even under Potter it wasn't plain sailing but they were getting similar results but with a better style which as you said had a higher ceiling, which they've certainly started reaching over the last year.

That incredibly gutsy decision to part with Hughton, who'd done absolutely nothing wrong there, was a masterstroke. In wistful moments I imagine what might have happened if we'd done the same after his first season here, in which those final two wins elevated us into a slightly misleading mid-table position. Could we have flown from that solid base he'd established? Then I realise that the answer to that is probably no, we didn't have money. I really admire what Brighton and Brentford have done, and think they should be our model, but you have to acknowledge that their most significant figures are Bloom and Benham respectively. Ironic they can't stand each other...

[nutty nigel 7,653]

There's no doubt winning football is the fans favourite.