There is something fundamentally wrong with this squad

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Both in terms of its make up and it’s mentality.

they had worked so hard to get back into contention and then produce two displays like we’ve seen in the last four days to basically chuck it all away.

They don’t seem to really want promotion and they are gutless, sloppy and complacent. I find it very hard to watch to be honest and i can’t wait to see the back of a few if them.

Webber has failed. Completely. He is ruining us and will leave us in a disastrous state of allowed to continue.

More than anything though you look at the top half of the premier league with the likes of Brentford, Brighton and Fulham holding their own and you realise what a complete and utter waste we have made of the opportunities that we have had. I hope I’m wrong but I fear it may be a long time before we have them again. That will ultimately be Delia’s legacy. The club not fulfilling its potential and being left behind by other clubs who take their chances. 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Both in terms of its make up and it’s mentality.

they had worked so hard to get back into contention and then produce two displays like we’ve seen in the last four days to basically chuck it all away.

They don’t seem to really want promotion and they are gutless, sloppy and complacent. I find it very hard to watch to be honest and i can’t wait to see the back of a few if them.

Webber has failed. Completely. He is ruining us and will leave us in a disastrous state of allowed to continue.

More than anything though you look at the top half of the premier league with the likes of Brentford, Brighton and Fulham holding their own and you realise what a complete and utter waste we have made of the opportunities that we have had. I hope I’m wrong but I fear it may be a long time before we have them again. That will ultimately be Delia’s legacy. The club not fulfilling its potential and being left behind by other clubs who take their chances. 

 

Partly agree, but I think overall it was Farkeball that was a dead end.

Mowbray's comments questioning our approach summed it up for me. As a club, we're too obsessed with seeing the players play a certain way rather than allowing a way to develop that's best for them to get the right results consistently.

[S_81 792]

Webber should never have had his contract extended. A shocking decision 

[dylanisabaddog 4,842]

Hello @Jim Smith

Haven't heard from you in ages. Or have I not been paying attention? 

On the plus side for Webber is that he gave us Farke who provided 2 wonderful seasons. But that was probably only possible because he found Emi. Whether that's enough to make up for some of the other disastrous signings I'm not sure. He was happy to take credit for Emi, and quite right too because he found him. But he's a little bit quiet about some of the others! 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,224]

13 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Hello @Jim Smith

Haven't heard from you in ages. Or have I not been paying attention? 

On the plus side for Webber is that he gave us Farke who provided 2 wonderful seasons. But that was probably only possible because he found Emi. Whether that's enough to make up for some of the other disastrous signings I'm not sure. He was happy to take credit for Emi, and quite right too because he found him. But he's a little bit quiet about some of the others! 

Did Webber find him though? Or did the scouting team that jumped ship to Borough find him but ol' 90% took credit for it? 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

1 minute ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Did Webber find him though? Or did the scouting team that jumped ship to Borough find him but ol' 90% took credit for it? 

This^^^ It was prior recruitment that unearthed out gems- then they left and Webber took over and we threw away nearly 100 million recruiting a bang average championship set up. 

I do wonder if subconsciously this lot don’t want promotion. There are quite a few whose renewed contract depends on them not going up…

[City 2nd 191]

Yep, certainly right there. It’s called WEB-BER syndrome.

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

Two humiliating PL relegations - and the fact that the Championship win in the middle was played in front of empty stadiums - have taken their toll on the whole club. The players are shot, fans are apathetic, Delia and Michael are broken, Webber has had to face up to the fact that his model has a clear ceiling. It's a bad business all round. We need a new beginning.

I'm a huge fan of what Delia and Michael have done for this club and will remember their tenure, especially the Webber-Farke bit, with real fondness, but the handover to the Attanasios can't come soon enough now. As others have said, we need to move a significant proportion of the older players on, start again and build a team we can all get behind. A few years in the Championship doing that would be fun - and then hopefully another tilt at upsetting the PL when we're all psychologically ready for it.

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I do wonder if subconsciously this lot don’t want promotion.

Parma had a good post on this the other day. I think it's very likely. It's certainly true of the fans, isn't it, as this messageboard has proved all season. A lot of us have serious misgivings about the prospect of going up, not surprisingly after the last two experiences.

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

10 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Two humiliating PL relegations - and the fact that the Championship win in the middle was played in front of empty stadiums - have taken their toll on the whole club. The players are shot, fans are apathetic, Delia and Michael are broken, Webber has had to face up to the fact that his model has a clear ceiling. It's a bad business all round. We need a new beginning.

I'm a huge fan of what Delia and Michael have done for this club and will remember their tenure, especially the Webber-Farke bit, with real fondness, but the handover to the Attanasios can't come soon enough now. As others have said, we need to move a significant proportion of the older players on, start again and build a team we can all get behind. A few years in the Championship doing that would be fun - and then hopefully another tilt at upsetting the PL when we're all psychologically ready for it.

I agree with all of that. I would say that below the surface I believe the fundamentals of the club are reasonably solid. I don’t see us as one of those clubs that has defied gravity and is heading for a tremendous fall.

[hogesar 9,609]

44 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Two humiliating PL relegations - and the fact that the Championship win in the middle was played in front of empty stadiums - have taken their toll on the whole club. The players are shot, fans are apathetic, Delia and Michael are broken, Webber has had to face up to the fact that his model has a clear ceiling. It's a bad business all round. We need a new beginning.

I'm a huge fan of what Delia and Michael have done for this club and will remember their tenure, especially the Webber-Farke bit, with real fondness, but the handover to the Attanasios can't come soon enough now. As others have said, we need to move a significant proportion of the older players on, start again and build a team we can all get behind. A few years in the Championship doing that would be fun - and then hopefully another tilt at upsetting the PL when we're all psychologically ready for it.

The championship win with no fans sometimes goes by without comment but I think that really has led to some of the awful levels of support we've seen at Carrow Road. We saw us before project restart generally losing games, came back to an awful Prem start under Farke, saw a couple of glimpses under Smith and then back to consistent losing and then for some reason couldn't get behind the solid Championship start we made. That early form is looking more an achievement the further we go into this season, yet some were more interested in wanting the manager out because of the way he looked. 

I also think a new team, or core to it, is pretty important too. 

[Ulfotto 619]

Yes there is still a massive issue in defensive midfield. I am guessing this is where Isaac Hayden came in but we really lack someone to protect the back four and to have the composure to play through a high press. Until this is fixed either tactically or buy a new signing we will blow hot and cold.

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

37 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I agree with all of that. I would say that below the surface I believe the fundamentals of the club are reasonably solid. I don’t see us as one of those clubs that has defied gravity and is heading for a tremendous fall.

Yes, agree with that, and fortunately so do the Attanasios

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The championship win with no fans sometimes goes by without comment but I think that really has led to some of the awful levels of support we've seen at Carrow Road.

Just think I should say that my comment on the fans' apathy was much more about a general ambivalence about whether we go up or not - we saw that on here with the long thread that followed @The Great Mass Debater's poll about whether we want promotion. I'm an exiled fan who can't go to many games at the moment, so can't comment directly on the atmosphere at Carrow Road (obviously you've every right to do that, @hogesar, but I don't).

 

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

then for some reason couldn't get behind the solid Championship start we made.

I think there were good reasons for that - the sense there was no coherent plan to what we were doing, the sense that some of the results were based on us having good individual players at this level rather than a team that was making progress - and the aforementioned doubt as to whether we really wanted to go up. I think it had more substance to it than 'not liking how the manager looked'.

The big mistake I think Webber and Smith made was not communicating to the fans what they were trying to do this season. Was it promotion at all costs? In which case there needed to be a case made for how Smith's approach could (a) deliver that and (b) be more sustainable than Farke's in the PL. Or was it a more root-and-branch rebuild? I think a lot of fans would have decried that as 'no ambishun' but if it had been explained well I think a lot more of us would have bought in. The latter now seems like the only approach we have - and if I'm being optimistic, I think that it could lead to Carrow road being a more enjoyable place to be.

[jaberry2 549]

10 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Both in terms of its make up and it’s mentality.

they had worked so hard to get back into contention and then produce two displays like we’ve seen in the last four days to basically chuck it all away.

They don’t seem to really want promotion and they are gutless, sloppy and complacent. I find it very hard to watch to be honest and i can’t wait to see the back of a few if them.

Webber has failed. Completely. He is ruining us and will leave us in a disastrous state of allowed to continue.

More than anything though you look at the top half of the premier league with the likes of Brentford, Brighton and Fulham holding their own and you realise what a complete and utter waste we have made of the opportunities that we have had. I hope I’m wrong but I fear it may be a long time before we have them again. That will ultimately be Delia’s legacy. The club not fulfilling its potential and being left behind by other clubs who take their chances. 

 

You're not wrong. Ive been invited to a box at Norwich against Swansea in April and im tempted not to go due to the dross we are currently playing. I was initially excited to be asked, but watching us at the moment fills me with zero excitement.

[shefcanary 2,377]

58 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I agree with all of that. I would say that below the surface I believe the fundamentals of the club are reasonably solid. I don’t see us as one of those clubs that has defied gravity and is heading for a tremendous fall.

One positive I did take from last night was the large number of young supporters who were in the pub beforehand, marched to the ground as a unit and then got behind the team until the implosion on the pitch in the 2nd half. Attanasio now needs to find a way of building on this at Carrow Road to ensure the next generation support the team through a period of change on the pitch and at Colney. 

[Monty13 2,229]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Partly agree, but I think overall it was Farkeball that was a dead end.

Mowbray's comments questioning our approach summed it up for me. As a club, we're too obsessed with seeing the players play a certain way rather than allowing a way to develop that's best for them to get the right results consistently.

That was meant to be Smiths philosophy, to play the way we needed to to win rather than a distinct philosophy…and everyone hated it and we were awful to watch.

Farkeball wasn’t a deadend, we just didn’t evolve it in the right way. That one summer in 2021 ripped everything up and ruined all the work (in terms of the footballing side) that had been done in the previous 4 years.

[king canary 7,559]

I posted something about this last season- I don't think it is just the squad though, it feels like something that permeates that whole club.

Can't for the life of me work out why this has been illustrated with a picture of Nicola Sturgeon though...

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

Just now, Monty13 said:

Farkeball wasn’t a deadend, we just didn’t evolve it in the right way.

And even if it was, what it delivered along the way was worth it. When I think back over my nearly forty years supporting City, lots of seasons fade into the background, only a few remain strongly in the memory. Farke's two titles, and the odd highlight in the first PL season (Man City, obviously, but for me the wonderful night at Spurs in the Cup) will linger a long time, I think. That first title season was so exciting, and the second was just imperious. Most clubs would dream of such a 'dead end'.

[Yellow Fever 3,732]

I actually think its just a mindset issue. We have too many comfortable players coming to the end of their contracts and / or looking elsewhere who then quite naturally can find it hard to get motivated on a cold wet night. Just marking time.

On the other days it can all 'gel' and we are excellent.

I've no other explanation for the relaxed kick-around we saw in the first half when we should of been out of sight. Slow and ponderous.

Onel was missing with his passion and attitude etc. for certain.

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Can't for the life of me work out why this has been illustrated with a picture of Nicola Sturgeon though...

you can blame @Greavsy,  who put her in the thread by way of bashing her fellow Krankie, Billy Gilmour. His words, not mine.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

6 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

That was meant to be Smiths philosophy, to play the way we needed to to win rather than a distinct philosophy…and everyone hated it and we were awful to watch.

Farkeball wasn’t a deadend, we just didn’t evolve it in the right way. That one summer in 2021 ripped everything up and ruined all the work (in terms of the footballing side) that had been done in the previous 4 years.

Yes that transfer window was absolutely disastrous. Firstly selling Emi and then completely failing to bring in the right players that were needed in probably no more than 3 key positions. We immediately lost all momentum. 

[hogesar 9,609]

13 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Just think I should say that my comment on the fans' apathy was much more about a general ambivalence about whether we go up or not - we saw that on here with the long thread that followed @The Great Mass Debater's poll about whether we want promotion. I'm an exiled fan who can't go to many games at the moment, so can't comment directly on the atmosphere at Carrow Road (obviously you've every right to do that, @hogesar, but I don't).

 

I think there were good reasons for that - the sense there was no coherent plan to what we were doing, the sense that some of the results were based on us having good individual players at this level rather than a team that was making progress - and the aforementioned doubt as to whether we really wanted to go up. I think it had more substance to it than 'not liking how the manager looked'.

The big mistake I think Webber and Smith made was not communicating to the fans what they were trying to do this season. Was it promotion at all costs? In which case there needed to be a case made for how Smith's approach could (a) deliver that and (b) be more sustainable than Farke's in the PL. Or was it a more root-and-branch rebuild? I think a lot of fans would have decried that as 'no ambishun' but if it had been explained well I think a lot more of us would have bought in. The latter now seems like the only approach we have - and if I'm being optimistic, I think that it could lead to Carrow road being a more enjoyable place to be.

Yes, I'm being purposefully a little tongue-in-cheek but during that good early run we scored 16 goals and conceded 6. Clearly we were less entertaining and focused on defending which is why I bring it up really. The same people bemoaning that lack of entertainment are now bemoaning are ability to grind out and defend basics. That's not to say oh we should have kept Smith because we lost that defensive solidarity but at the time the support at the ground was abysmal, even worse than now, which I don't think helped.

It's also a chance to reflect. I remember us beating Millwall 2-0 at home but the general comment at the time was they were an awful side so we should expect to. Same Coventry, same West Brom with the 1-1 draw. As the season progresses it's clear that's not always the case.

The inability for this team to build up a head of steam and kick on, which is kind of what the criticism became as our good run progressed under Smith, is clearly more than just a manager issue.

You're right though - I've enjoyed Wagners better games far more than i've enjoyed Smiths better games.

[repman 633]

We've appointed 2 very average managers in a row. Football moves fast and instead of trying to keep up we've gone for options who's careers are trending downwards. Wagner got Huddersfield promoted in a year where the top 2 were managed by Benitez and Hughton, where are those 2 now? 

This isn't to say I think Farke was that good either but his style of football certainly wielded better results at this level plus he had Emi Buendia.

There's plenty of young coaches who are getting their sides to produce on the pitch, above us in the table Burnley, Boro and Luton are good examples of this.

[king canary 7,559]

3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

That was meant to be Smiths philosophy, to play the way we needed to to win rather than a distinct philosophy…and everyone hated it and we were awful to watch.

Farkeball wasn’t a deadend, we just didn’t evolve it in the right way. That one summer in 2021 ripped everything up and ruined all the work (in terms of the footballing side) that had been done in the previous 4 years.

I think Farke was too much of an idealist to adapt though. It is noticeable that an awful lot of the same complaints about his time here are being reproduced at Gladbach- loads of passing and possession, dominating the ball but a lack of chance creation and a reluctance to change things when they aren't working.

I think Webber had the right idea when he signed players who might play in a different way last season, he just did a bad job both of choosing those players and choosing a new manager. 

[Jim Smith 2,314]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I actually think its just a mindset issue. We have too many comfortable players coming to the end of their contracts and / or looking elsewhere who then quite naturally can find it hard to get motivated on a cold wet night. Just marking time.

On the other days it can all 'gel' and we are excellent.

I've no other explanation for the relaxed kick-around we saw in the first half when we should of been out of sight. Slow and ponderous.

Onel was missing with his passion and attitude etc. for certain.

I think there is a very high level of complacency. A few of them think they can stroll through games at this level after the two promotions and they thought that last night after going one up. After that, the concentration and intensity dips. Unfortunately, however, they all have far too many mistakes in them to be able to coast in games, even against an abysmal side like Huddersfield. 

[Monty13 2,229]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think Farke was too much of an idealist to adapt though. It is noticeable that an awful lot of the same complaints about his time here are being reproduced at Gladbach- loads of passing and possession, dominating the ball but a lack of chance creation and a reluctance to change things when they aren't working.

I think Webber had the right idea when he signed players who might play in a different way last season, he just did a bad job both of choosing those players and choosing a new manager. 

I think that’s probably true and we all saw those limitations in his tenure, but then that makes his new contract look even more ridiculous if that PL season was basically the make or break of him it turned out to be.

When I say Farkeball wasn’t the deadend I didn’t mean necessarily it needed Farke to evolve it. You’re right succession was a disaster with apparently little long term thought. However that summer set us up for long term failure IMO, poor choices in recruitment and a change of tactics we couldn’t pull off and arguably didn’t need to. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

That was meant to be Smiths philosophy, to play the way we needed to to win rather than a distinct philosophy…and everyone hated it and we were awful to watch.

Farkeball wasn’t a deadend, we just didn’t evolve it in the right way. That one summer in 2021 ripped everything up and ruined all the work (in terms of the footballing side) that had been done in the previous 4 years.

That's exactly my/Mowbray's point in suggesting we're too obsessed in seeing the team play a certain way.

Farke was at the heart of Farkeball; he evolved it.  His whole philosophy relied on getting the right players for his idea instead of creating an idea that works for our players. We don't compete in a market place that can support that philosophy, which is why it was a dead end; fans need to be more open-minded about what approach we take to get results.

That said, it was still a great part of the club's history that I'm glad we had it. It would also have been cut short without the tolerance and forbearance that people were willing to give it.

Overall, I think there are too many demands on the club that, combined, are just unreasonable and unachievable. We want the premier League but we don't want the premier League. We want results, but only if they're glorious swashbuckling 90 minutes of sheer pleasure.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and be a bit more tolerant,a bit less critical, and a bit more into taking it game by game rather than getting consumed by negative speculation to give everyone a chance to get back to enjoying the Canaries rollercoaster a bit more.

[Robert N. LiM 4,220]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yes, I'm being purposefully a little tongue-in-cheek but during that good early run we scored 16 goals and conceded 6. Clearly we were less entertaining and focused on defending which is why I bring it up really. The same people bemoaning that lack of entertainment are now bemoaning are ability to grind out and defend basics. That's not to say oh we should have kept Smith because we lost that defensive solidarity but at the time the support at the ground was abysmal, even worse than now, which I don't think helped.

It's also a chance to reflect. I remember us beating Millwall 2-0 at home but the general comment at the time was they were an awful side so we should expect to. Same Coventry, same West Brom with the 1-1 draw. As the season progresses it's clear that's not always the case.

The inability for this team to build up a head of steam and kick on, which is kind of what the criticism became as our good run progressed under Smith, is clearly more than just a manager issue.

You're right though - I've enjoyed Wagners better games far more than i've enjoyed Smiths better games.

Yeah, lot of fair comment there, especially the bit I've put in bold. Out of reactions atm but have an imaginary like.

[king canary 7,559]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

I think that’s probably true and we all saw those limitations in his tenure, but then that makes his new contract look even more ridiculous if that PL season was basically the make or break of him it turned out to be.

When I say Farkeball wasn’t the deadend I didn’t mean necessarily it needed Farke to evolve it. You’re right succession was a disaster with apparently little long term thought. However that summer set us up for long term failure IMO, poor choices in recruitment and a change of tactics we couldn’t pull off and arguably didn’t need to. 

Agree on the new deal- Webber has made some odd decisions on that front throughout his tenure here like giving half the squad new deals after the first promotion. 

I do think there was some long term thought to the summer signings outside of the central midfield- it felt to me that the combined signings of Rashica, Tzolis and Sargent indicated a desire to be a team who could play a bit more on the counter, be a bit more physical when needed and press higher up the pitch. However none of that actually came to fruition and the new players all looked entirely out of place in a Farke system.