Is this Championship really the poorest in a long time?

[canarybubbles 1,936]

It's become a kind of truism that this is the worst Championship in many, many seasons.

Sometimes, as I watch our games, I agree. But at other times, I think it's just flattened and become more mediocre - the peaks are not as high and the troughs are not as low. Almost every club seems fairly well organised now, sits back and waits for its chance, and they all look much of a muchness. I could see any three of about ten clubs going down and any three of about twelve squeezing into 4th-6th. Almost no one has a distinctive style and is trying something different (Swansea? Burnley?).

I'd be interested in knowing what other people think. Much weaker or just more mediocre?

[dylanisabaddog 4,969]

I think you're right, it has just averaged out over the last 5 or 6 years. There isn't a team as good as us, Leeds or Sheffield United from 5 or 6 years ago but I've yet to see a really awful side. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

Yes it is...Burnley are looking as though they could raise above the mediocrity but the rest of it is incredibly average.

This should have been one of the more straightforward promitions in our history and yet Smith is making a pigs ear of it

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

No. Teams are better organised and pressing more effectively. There aren't many outstanding teams, but there aren't any teams as weak as, say like Burton Albion, Ipswich or a financially struggling Bolton Wanderers that were around in Farke's title-winning seasons.

Even more than usual, the Championship punishes if a team is not quite on their game. It's probably even tougher than usual for that reason.

Edited December 26, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I just can’t think of a single side I’ve watched and thought ‘these look good’ except maybe Burnley away but again nothing special and we were shocking - previous campaigns I’ve been impressed by Leeds, Bournemouth, Sheff United, Brentford, Bristol City, Villa, West Brom, Derby etc.

Watching us play against the top 6 this season has felt like watching us play against ordinary championship teams, watching Norwich feels like watching an ordinary championship team, except for the 10-15% of our season where we’ve actually hit a higher gear.

The games have been littered with mistakes in and out of possession, hard to tell if it is more than usual but it certainly feels like it.

Maybe our stodgy style of safe, slow, rigid possession football just lends itself to an awful game of football, with Farkeball being the opposite (especially 2018/19 which was often footballing chaos).

Are the teams coming to Carrow Road genuinely more organised, or are we just much much less cohesive with the ball? I’d say the latter, everything about the viewer experience watching us play would suggest the same.

Oh Dean Smith, your football is…

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

No. Teams are better organised and pressing more effectively. There aren't many outstanding teams, but there aren't any teams as weak as, say like Burton Albion, Ipswich or a financially struggling Bolton Wanderers that were around in Farke's title-winning seasons.

Even more than usual, the Championship punishes if a team is not quite on their game. It's probably even tougher than usual for that reason.

Where do you think the 2018/19 and 2020/21 sides would finish in this league?

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I just can’t think of a single side I’ve watched and thought ‘these look good’ except maybe Burnley away but again nothing special and we were shocking - previous campaigns I’ve been impressed by Leeds, Bournemouth, Sheff United, Brentford, Bristol City, Villa, West Brom, Derby etc.

Watching us play against the top 6 this season has felt like watching us play against ordinary championship teams, watching Norwich feels like watching an ordinary championship team, except for the 10-15% of our season where we’ve actually hit a higher gear.

The games have been littered with mistakes in and out of possession, hard to tell if it is more than usual but it certainly feels like it.

Maybe our stodgy style of safe, slow, rigid possession football just lends itself to an awful game of football, with Farkeball being the opposite (especially 2018/19 which was often footballing chaos).

Are the teams coming to Carrow Road genuinely more organised, or are we just much much less cohesive with the ball? I’d say the latter, everything about the viewer experience watching us play would suggest the same.

Oh Dean Smith, your football is…

 

You've just unwittingly hit it with the bit in bold. Farke's teams came out to play - but if the opposition got the ball, they had space to play themselves. That's why we were often so vulnerable on the turnover and have always needed a defensive midfielder who sat back. 

Smith's teams don't push on so hard, so when the opposition get the ball, there's less space for themselves to play in, and accuracy is at a premium.

[lake district canary 4,542]

It's relatively easy these days for teams to be technically competent, well organised and physical - and to rise above it, you have to be better in some way - a system or way of playing that sets you above the rest.  Better players, basically, combined with a manager who knows how to get the best out of you - and with fans who buy in to it.

Burnley already had a good squad already, got Kompany who the fans bought into straight away. That combination attracted good players and they look the best in the league.

Manager/players/fans all pushing in the same direction.

It's a formula that works - we know it works, we've seen it several times here in the last twelve or so years.

We need to try it again......

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

Just now, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Where do you think the 2018/19 and 2020/21 sides would finish in this league?

I don't think the 2018/19 side would have won it at all. They'd get picked off on the counter even more frequently and probably have ended up in the play-offs. The 2020/21 side looked more streetwise with Skipp and a Buendia that was clearly fired up to learn about hard work off the ball so they would have been much nearer the sharp end of the league - and then there was the partnership between Buendia and Pukki.

There's definitely a potential argument for a 2020/21 side, with another year of the Buendia/Pukki partnership given more space by teams pushing up more, going on a record-breaking season not just for Norwich, but for the Championship. However, there's also the caveat that this was the COVID season where fans weren't allowed in so a major psychological factor was taken away.

If you're going to push me for an answer, I'd say 2018/19 come about 5th, and 2020/21 - under the same COVID-related conditions they played under, might still nick the top spot but even more powered by that Buendia/Skipp combo.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think the 2018/19 side would have won it at all. They'd get picked off on the counter even more frequently and probably have ended up in the play-offs. The 2020/21 side looked more streetwise with Skipp and a Buendia that was clearly fired up to learn about hard work off the ball so they would have been much nearer the sharp end of the league - and then there was the partnership between Buendia and Pukki.

There's definitely a potential argument for a 2020/21 side, with another year of the Buendia/Pukki partnership given more space by teams pushing up more, going on a record-breaking season not just for Norwich, but for the Championship. However, there's also the caveat that this was the COVID season where fans weren't allowed in so a major psychological factor was taken away.

If you're going to push me for an answer, I'd say 2018/19 come about 5th, and 2020/21 - under the same COVID-related conditions they played under, might still nick the top spot but even more powered by that Buendia/Skipp combo.

I’d generally agree with your views here, but I’d still fancy both sides to win it, especially 2020-21 which basically built its campaign on edging out the lower teams relentlessly. As far as I can tell there are no Bournemouths / Watfords / Brentfords for us to drop points against regularly (our record against the top sides was poor), and without that surely we’d win the league with even more comfort than 2 years ago? 

I do take your point on the 2018-19 side, but still think they’d win it, as long as they could still edge out in enough games early season to build some momentum. As mentioned in the previous post, how much is it our opposition being super-organised in the press and how much of it us struggling to progress the ball right now?

It feels like it’s more an issue with us right now, rather than every other team coincidentally being much more organised than previous seasons; and what’s more likely? 

Also throwing COVID into it and the massive financial impact that’s had on sides (aren’t we close to the biggest spenders this season?) and a drop in quality at the top feels understandable.

[canarydan23 4,060]

33 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Where do you think the 2018/19 and 2020/21 sides would finish in this league?

100 points plus. They'd absolutely **** it. 

With Smith in charge of them? Between 5th and 10th, as is his way.

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

5 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I’d generally agree with your views here, but I’d still fancy both sides to win it, especially 2020-21 which basically built its campaign on edging out the lower teams relentlessly. As far as I can tell there are no Bournemouths / Watfords / Brentfords for us to drop points against regularly (our record against the top sides was poor), and without that surely we’d win the league with even more comfort than 2 years ago? 

I do take your point on the 2018-19 side, but still think they’d win it, as long as they could still edge out in enough games early season to build some momentum. As mentioned in the previous post, how much is it our opposition being super-organised in the press and how much of it us struggling to progress the ball right now?

It feels like it’s more an issue with us right now, rather than every other team coincidentally being much more organised than previous seasons; and what’s more likely? 

Also throwing COVID into it and the massive financial impact that’s had on sides (aren’t we close to the biggest spenders this season?) and a drop in quality at the top feels understandable.

Well, Burnley, Sheffield United and Watford are still around so I'm not sure about the statement that there are no top sides this time out (but you're right that in 2020/21 we did struggle against the top sides). And it's not as if our passing style was ultra-unusual - we just had a manager who knew how to put a team together to stay on the front foot for prolonged periods. Brentford always turned a stylish side out. Swansea have generally preferred to get it on the deck. Burnley have changed their style totally. Coventry play some quality stuff nowadays after some prolonged time with Robins at the helm.

Even the likes of Rotherham have shown that they can get it down and play on occasion when it wasn't all harum-scarum. I've not seen anything as weak as the Burton Albion 0-0 matches, which were probably the nadir of Farke's reign that weren't actually defeats (like the 4-0 at Millwall, 5-1 versus Sheffield Wednesday, or the 0-3 versus Leeds), or the struggles against a very weak, financially handicapped Bolton Wanderers.

Agree that there's definitely been a financial handicap in the Champs due to COVID but it can swing both ways. It cuts budgets - but it also means players might have to drop their demands.

[vlad666 203]

I think the quality is lower but teams seem more athletic now. Maybe that’s because we look so slow/unfit though. 

[Capt. Pants 4,271]

Based on what I have seen so far this season it really is a very average league. Our last home game saw 3rd v 4th. The standard was bang average at was very best.

Teams are better organised at nullifying the threats of each, consequently games tend to be tighter and arguably less exciting. 

 

[hogesar 9,720]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Yes it is...Burnley are looking as though they could raise above the mediocrity but the rest of it is incredibly average.

This should have been one of the more straightforward promitions in our history and yet Smith is making a pigs ear of it

This seems incredibly naive to anyone who's actually watched the championship this season.

Even the lowly championship sides have tactically astute gameplay and no longer do sides come to Carrow Road treating it as a "free hit".

Sides are setting up with an own-half counter press, disciplined positioning and shape whilst waiting for set pieces etc to take an opportunity.

Historically the lower teams have regularly "had a go" at the bigger teams and often been played through. It's why the championship got its name for being so exciting and thrilling but that's coming to an end. Not because it's suddenly a much easier league.

When we last won the league, to make the playoffs you needed to average 1.67 points a game.

Currently this season its 1.48.

Certainly the points are more evenly distributed and the points required to stay up this season are likely to be considerably higher. All bar the bottom team are averaging over a point a game. Last time round the bottom 4 all ended up with less than a point a game.

Edited December 26, 2022 by hogesar

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Every team is basically playing the same way. There isn't much to choose in style. Tactics may vary but the style of possession based is pretty universal. Even L2 teams play it out from the back rather than the CB hoofing it forward.

It needs a different tactic to make it successful. So while the players are better on the ball than they have ever been, those with less skill take longer to move the ball, With us in the past, we had better tactic to utilise it it when it did go forward. For instance, Lambert played the diamond with two front runners who were ambitious, strong and willing to move around the park.

With DF, the opposition knew that at any moment, we could release Teemu with one incisive pass after keeping possession but not just for the sake of it.

And so certain teams walked away with the league.

Now, most teams just try to keep possession and the teams with more skillful players will benefit.

So in terms of entertainment and attacking flair, this has to be one of the worst Championship seasons for many a year.

[DraytonBoy 160]

I'd substitute 'poorest' for 'most even' given that after half the season only ten points separates 3rd from 17th.

[percy varco 200]

We are 12 points off the top and 11 points off relegation. Settling into mid table mediocrity. 
 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

32 minutes ago, hogesar said:

This seems incredibly naive to anyone who's actually watched the championship this season.

Even the lowly championship sides have tactically astute gameplay and no longer do sides come to Carrow Road treating it as a "free hit".

Sides are setting up with an own-half counter press, disciplined positioning and shape whilst waiting for set pieces etc to take an opportunity.

Historically the lower teams have regularly "had a go" at the bigger teams and often been played through. It's why the championship got its name for being so exciting and thrilling but that's coming to an end. Not because it's suddenly a much easier league.

When we last won the league, to make the playoffs you needed to average 1.67 points a game.

Currently this season its 1.48.

Certainly the points are more evenly distributed and the points required to stay up this season are likely to be considerably higher. All bar the bottom team are averaging over a point a game. Last time round the bottom 4 all ended up with less than a point a game.

Do you think Burnley currently think that?

Only an average team would think the league looks harder (of which we're currently one of)....if youre at the top , it wouldnt

As the saying goes..

If you cant see a poor team on the fixture list, then youre one of them..

Edited December 26, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[hogesar 9,720]

1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Do you think Burnley currently think that?

Only an average team would think the league looks harder (of which we're currently one of)....if youre at the top , it wouldnt

I think if you're referring to the quality of the top teams then I agree it's weaker than previous years.

But the league overall has more athleticism and discipline/ tactical nous than at any other time I can remember in this division. That's easily shown by the fact even the bottom teams are averaging over a point a game.

[Crafty Canary 497]

Every time we are in the Championship some posters on here tell us all with how poor the Championship is. Utter balderdash, some matches are mediocre, some average and some excellent. The fact we are well below par this season is down to the club not the competition we are engaged in.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Crafty Canary

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

59 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

Every time we are in the Championship some posters on here tell us all with how poor the Championship is. Utter balderdash, some matches are mediocre, some average and some excellent. The fact we are well below par this season is down to the club not the competition we are engaged in.

So if we're currently sitting where Burnley are i.e with 11 more points on the board and with a decent gap to 3rd place, would you be saying this?

The fact that in the last 6 home games Smith has managed to lose to ordinary teams like preston luton boro and blackburn and drawn with QPR , or that we could be behind Coventry tonight doesnt make it a good league

...it means that we're sh!te

[Crafty Canary 497]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

So if we're currently sitting where Burnley are i.e with 11 more points on the board and with a decent gap to 3rd place, would you be saying this?

The fact that in the last 6 home games Smith has managed to lose to ordinary teams like preston luton boro and blackburn and drawn with QPR , or that we could be behind Coventry tonight doesnt make it a good league

...it means that we're sh!te

We are where we are because of our performances and Burnley are where they are for the same reason. In either case the competition called the Championship is the same so is not better or poorer than in any other season. How does our poor performances make it a poor league? Your argument is irrational.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

7 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

We are where we are because of our performances and Burnley are where they are for the same reason. In either case the competition called the Championship is the same so is not better or poorer than in any other season. How does our poor performances make it a poor league? Your argument is irrational.

Because it depends from which standpoint youre looking at it from

If burnley win today they go 11 pts ahead if the team who are third in blackburn...who have just lost their 11th game out of 24.

There is certaintly not the quality at the top end of it

[Crafty Canary 497]

35 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Because it depends from which standpoint youre looking at it from

If burnley win today they go 11 pts ahead if the team who are third in blackburn...who have just lost their 11th game out of 24.

There is certaintly not the quality at the top end of it

Yes they have lost 11 but have won 13 s showing how inconsistent they are. However they are third before today’s games because they have more points than the 21 teams below them.

[Mason 47 1,391]

When I think about this question, I often wonder how often people have said 'this is the best Championship ever' about other seasons.

I think the Championship is just the Championship. We broke our record for points last time out and it was all about how good we were, not how bad everyone else was. Now we're doing poorly and the league is obviously crap so we're double crap.

The solution? Play better 

[repman 635]

I think people say it's the poorest in the long time because of the fact we regularly look rubbish and are still in the top 6.

[Bovril 219]

There is no question it's the poorest in years. Ask just about any other club in the league and they will agree. 

It's also lacking stand out individual players. The likes of a Buendia here at Norwich, a Mitrovic at Fulham last year, a Benrahma or Toney at Brentford the year before etc. 

How many players would a Southampton type side for example look at in this league and think 'yep, he's a good player that could make it in the Premier League'?

[The Raptor 1,231]

We are somehow still 5th

In our last game we lost  against 10 men. 

The general standard is dire 

 

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

If burnley win today , they and sheff utd will be 15 and 12 pts above us

Those 2 , although not great teams are over the hill and gone

The rest of us in this league are sh!te