Why Stuart Webber should stay... for now.

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

Excellent writing - if you don't write for a living already then maybe you should!

I think this paragraph highlights my overriding gripe with Webber and probably explains the situation we're in now. I know I'm in the minority, but I think we shouldn't have changed anything in the summer of 2021. We should have been looking for a few signings to incrementally improve the squad and taken another 'free hit'. 

Webber gambled. He's still chasing his losses, and the club is suffering as a result. That compulsion to tinker when we would almost certainly have been better retaining continuity.

The question remains whether Webber is capable of taking a step back and realising that his gamble has failed, or if he's so committed to the current direction that he simply won't back down.

The Mick Dennis article betrays a dangerous mindset within the club and its apologists: that the current decline is perfectly normal and acceptable.

Maybe if we'd had a slow start to the season before hitting (and maintaining) form then it wouldn't be so bad. But our recent form is awful, particularly at home, and we're not seeing any improvement to the underlying issues. Sargent is starting out wide again. Cantwell is frozen out.

No one is asking for a miracle. We just want to see improvement. We're not, and that is a problem. 

Thanks for the kind words, Petriix. I have worked in editorial/content for 20+ years, so I am well-practised at writing; however, it's much harder to write from the heart about a subject that means the world to you than it is to write to a specified brief!

It's easy to say that we would 'almost certainly have been better retaining continuity' with hindsight, but we just don't know (I think we would have been too, for the record). And we'll never know this either, but I have a feeling that if there was any possible way of retaining Emi Buendia in summer 2021 then we would have.

I think it was a combination of Emi making it clear that he wanted to leave (which was perfectly reasonable after he stayed to help us get back up again), and a tacit acceptance that Emi was, to all intents and purposes, irreplaceable. Rather than splashing £15-20m on trying to find a direct replacement with the 'X-factor', we tried to strengthen the squad.

In hindsight, it didn't work; that much is clear. I don't think his commitment to that gamble of summer 2021 is necessarily mutually inclusive with retaining Dean Smith, and I'm hopeful that the board will have the collective courage to roll the dice on that front.

[Petriix 2,853]

45 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Indeed.

Why did he @Petriix ?

Parma 

That's pretty easy to answer:

Webber wanted to be the only man to have taken a mid-table Championship club to becoming an established Premier League side with zero external investment. 

He didn't and doesn't care about the cost of failure. He'll walk away to other things regardless of the outcome. It's only our club on the line. He couldn't pass up the opportunity when he had everything to gain and nothing to lose. 

And, as @Feedthewolf says, Webber is 'driven' and ambitious. Sitting on his hands was never in his nature. Unfortunately the reckless choice has, and continues to, backfire. 

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

I am with you on a lot you have posted here wolfie but please remember that you were elected by the fans to represent the fans on the OSP and if you ruffle a few feathers within the management inside Carrow Road with your views on what is wrong so be it.

I've always tried to strike a balance on here between offering my honest thoughts as a fan, and being mindful of my role on the panel and my connections to people at the club. If this OP and my following comments have crossed that line and the club aren't happy about them, I'll take it on the chin.

Part of the reason I applied (and was elected) in the first place was due to my prominence on this board, and the ability that gave me to 'take the temperature' of fans' opinions. It's unusual for me to start a thread like this rather than just commenting on other people's, and I know there's a chance that the club might see it and possibly be unhappy with it.

Nobody at the club has ever said anything to me about anything I've posted on here before, and I've certainly been critical of things that have been said and done both on and off the pitch. Whatever the club may think about this (if anything!), it's certainly generated a lot of good debate already, and I see that as a positive thing. I'm a solution-focused person who wants to help the club – even if that means taking on difficult topics and being a 'critical friend'.

[canarydan23 4,060]

He's become toxic for me. I genuinely believe something happened to him at some point a few years ago and he's not quite the full ticket anymore. I know everyone parents differently, but I personally could never even contemplate embarking on any sort of objective that would require, through choice, me being away from my young family for so long. Add in the fact that the objective is something that people can, and frequently do, die from and you've got someone who cannot be anything other than a narcissist, and a slightly pathological one at that. I know there are people who regularly have to spend prolonged time away from their children; soldiers, riggers, athletes, etc, but that is for a living. Not a hobby. Likewise, he'll meet several Sherpas who leave their families at home, but again, it's something they've been doing for generations, were doing before they had young families and it's their job. Webber embarked on this project when he was already a father. It's not something that I can empathise with at all; I could never put my family through the sacrifice and worry it requires. He can, and for me, that's not normal. And it's since this Everest endeavour became a thing that Webber's decisions as a Sporting Director have got worse and worse.

On top of that, I've heard directly from one club employee and indirectly from a handful of others that the place is toxic. People cannot get out of the door fast enough right across the business from the shop floor to people in senior positions; several to a job at a club in a lower league and with a much longer commute.

Under him the club has completely lost its way, both on the pitch and off it. There isn't enough experience at the club; the decision-makers are all in their 30s. And the reason for that is allegedly because Webber's ego cannot stomach the prospect of and older, wiser, more experienced head to be in an influential position. So we're left with people a bit wet-behind-the-ears, like Richens and Jeffrey, who won't intimidate Webber's fragile ego, or older lickspittles who won't push back on questionable decisions.

I'm not convinced he's the full ticket. I am convinced he can't be trusted to get anything right anymore.

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You think its unlikely that Stuart will be here in a years time.

Which means you actually think he'll be bailing before somebody else has to pick up the pieces of his terrible transfer business by embarking on drastic post-parachute payment cloth cutting and having to pick us back up off the floor.

If he's not prepared to stay here long term to clean up his mess then he should leave tomorrow. 

If you think its unlikely he'll be here in a years time, then why should he be the person who gives the next head coach a 3 year deal. His successor is then bound by that. 

As for the bit in bold, "which then becomes expected of the people around him"

Whenever I've experienced people like this in the real world this translates roughly into them expecting people on the lowest pay grade to work as many hours as them, on their six figure salary. At my current employer three people who all do a specific role (which was actually the only three) just quit because they earn £27k-£30k a year and started getting work related phone calls at 10pm from a senior manager.

That senior manager has just been let go as a result. Workaholic, high achiever, never switched off from job, absolutely all of those things. Expecting the same from people on 35 hour a week contracts and not respecting their contracted hours and family life = worthy of constructive dismissal claims, which will inevitably be being prepared at the minute.

Totally see your point of view regarding the first half of the post. I'd be happy for him to stay longer than a year if he wants to do so; I believe him when he says he definitely wouldn't want to let the club down, and I believe he genuinely cares about leaving a good legacy for the football club after he leaves – even despite him appearing very single-minded and career-driven. I'm guessing you probably don't agree; if so that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I come back to it again, though; even if you think he 'should' leave tomorrow, he won't. D&M won't sack him as then the focus falls squarely back on them to steer the ship, and I don't believe he will step down as I believe he is committed to the club and the role (as outlined in my OP).

As for the last two paragraphs, while there is definitely a validated personality type in there (as in the example you use from your company), how it relates to Stuart Webber is just conjecture. It might be absolutely true of him, it might be true to some extent, it might not be true of him at all. Neither of us have any way of corroborating it, so until anyone can present any evidence that that's the case, it must remain filed under 'conjecture'.

You can point to the number of staff that have left, but that's just a number. It was brought up at one of our OSP meetings, actually, and one of the senior staff (could have been Sam Hall, but I can't remember) said that the employee 'churn rate' at the club was actually in line both with previous years and with the industry average.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,425]

29 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He's become toxic for me. I genuinely believe something happened to him at some point a few years ago and he's not quite the full ticket anymore. I know everyone parents differently, but I personally could never even contemplate embarking on any sort of objective that would require, through choice, me being away from my young family for so long. Add in the fact that the objective is something that people can, and frequently do, die from and you've got someone who cannot be anything other than a narcissist, and a slightly pathological one at that. I know there are people who regularly have to spend prolonged time away from their children; soldiers, riggers, athletes, etc, but that is for a living. Not a hobby. Likewise, he'll meet several Sherpas who leave their families at home, but again, it's something they've been doing for generations, were doing before they had young families and it's their job. Webber embarked on this project when he was already a father. It's not something that I can empathise with at all; I could never put my family through the sacrifice and worry it requires. He can, and for me, that's not normal. And it's since this Everest endeavour became a thing that Webber's decisions as a Sporting Director have got worse and worse.

On top of that, I've heard directly from one club employee and indirectly from a handful of others that the place is toxic. People cannot get out of the door fast enough right across the business from the shop floor to people in senior positions; several to a job at a club in a lower league and with a much longer commute.

Under him the club has completely lost its way, both on the pitch and off it. There isn't enough experience at the club; the decision-makers are all in their 30s. And the reason for that is allegedly because Webber's ego cannot stomach the prospect of and older, wiser, more experienced head to be in an influential position. So we're left with people a bit wet-behind-the-ears, like Richens and Jeffrey, who won't intimidate Webber's fragile ego, or older lickspittles who won't push back on questionable decisions.

I'm not convinced he's the full ticket. I am convinced he can't be trusted to get anything right anymore.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

[sonyc 5,541]

5 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

If he can cement his legacy in 2023 by appointing us a forward-thinking head coach and overseeing the Attanasios' further involvement to the point where a full takeover looks inevitable, I think we'll look back in a few years' time and realise that, for all his foibles, transfer failures and perceived arrogance, Stuart Webber will have left an impressive legacy for this football club.

Thank you for your thoughtful post first of all. And to reply I've just included your last paragraph for ease. I believe Webber has played a positive role with us and no doubt was a significant player viz. Attanasio. I don't hate him (or anybody for that matter) but I sat down last night and thought through how many chief execs / senior execs I have come across (in a long career) who reminded me of Webber. I easily counted 20 but I think I might get to 30 if I really went back far enough.

There are so many hallmarks of such leaders and you've selected "driven" as your principal characteristic. You've also gone all Freudian (no problem by the way - the theory of sublimation appears quite a decent guide to lots of geniuses for example) in suggesting that this drive might have been generated from early childhood. But...! Here's the rub. Often such a drive works for a period of time and whilst it is producing results, it is self-fulfilling. In less rounded individuals, that drive turns against others when things are not going right.

There have been numerous examples of his behaviour and we have all got a glimpse of his entitled attitude with his 90% comment. Because 90% of 'super Stu' (my deliberate dry humour here to second guess what he thinks about himself) is bound to be good enough for anyone! 90% of SW is better than 100% of anyone else. Let alone a football club like Norwich for whom we all ought to honoured to have such a bloke at the helm. Just think if you or I had stated that to the media! What must we really think of ourselves? Or others for that matter?

The trouble with the 20 plus execs I've known is that they were very convincing at first. They talked so well and could answer any question with ease. No wonder they charmed the organisation recruiting them. Their ambition was what the consultants helping the process wanted to hear. They wanted arrogance and super confidence. Their ambition had to drive the organisation forward (a phrase used a lot). Yet, it was always a case of the emperor's clothes. None of them had much humility and none had sticking power.

That's why I don't believe in him. At this point. He believes in himself far too much. And I want to also say he has been a good force for NCFC. I don't wish to decry him. But he isn't the future and I believe also that a manager (plus the team of course) are the principal force in creating a winning mentality. That has gone with DF - who despite his efforts failing in the EPL was not only a bad loser but managed to have a huge affinity and understanding with the fans. A very rare animal. Webber is not rare at all. I would love to see a change.

Anyway, just my tuppence worth and perhaps a bit of a different take. Winning the league and getting promotion is very difficult. Our team is okay but we badly need a whole new emphasis and new ideas very soon or I fear 8th to 9th place beckons. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by sonyc
Paragraphs!

[canarydan23 4,060]

7 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

Naturally. As I was when I said Smith was a bad appointment. I'm probably as right now as I was then.

[Robert N. LiM 4,479]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Indeed.

Why did he

I fear it's because, when the noise was at its loudest, he couldn't ignore it. Beneath that bullish exterior, I bet he's been kicking himself ever since.

[Robert N. LiM 4,479]

I thought this was great, @Feedthewolf. Thanks for writing it. I think there are lots of reasons to think that Webber should have moved on earlier, but this account of him is a useful corrective to the abuse he gets on here. Cheers

[Mello Yello 2,302]

If Stu Webbo left yesterday, I wouldn't eyelid a bat....

[Pyro Pete 1,918]

Thanks @Feedthewolf. Interesting post.

For me, Webber should have left when his contract expired. That's when he planned to move on. That's when he wanted to move on.

Seemingly, the new opportunities he was expecting didn't materialize. So he's stuck stagnating here instead.

Unfortunately, it seems the club now feel beholden to him. Resulting in the downward spiral of the club.

Webber's legacy will be the revitalised training facilities at Colney. But sadly, also a seriously divided club.

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

1 hour ago, Petriix said:

That's pretty easy to answer:

Webber wanted to be the only man to have taken a mid-table Championship club to becoming an established Premier League side with zero external investment. 

He didn't and doesn't care about the cost of failure. He'll walk away to other things regardless of the outcome. It's only our club on the line. He couldn't pass up the opportunity when he had everything to gain and nothing to lose. 

And, as @Feedthewolf says, Webber is 'driven' and ambitious. Sitting on his hands was never in his nature. Unfortunately the reckless choice has, and continues to, backfire. 

Well done. That was indeed the answer I was fishing for. 

I do not know it to be true, though it looks a plausible, painful and expensive possibility.

As you say. Expensive to whom?

Parma 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

4 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I fear it's because, when the noise was at its loudest, he couldn't ignore it. Beneath that bullish exterior, I bet he's been kicking himself ever since.

Some have suggested I am overly-focused on the Buendia sale. 

I was a footballer. I know the effect it would and did have on who was left. 

I know the ephemeral value of momentum. I know how highly competitive footballers feel when someone above them makes a fundamentally poor decision. Regardless of any mitigating factors. None of which will include tantrums, gentleman’s agreements or demanding to leave. That’s all utter nonsense. And worthlessly irrelevant even if true.

Webber thoughts he could repeat it. He played the Alex Ferguson ‘ No one is bigger than the club’ card. 

Which we don’t hold. And can’t afford. And the price of which is, was and was foreseen to be horrendously destructive for so many sporting and strategic reasons. 

It looked like personally overreaching at the time. Even more so now. To buy players that were not good enough.

For a club like us momentum spins on a dime.

There is no repeatable Midas touch. Finding Buendia (and Pukki) was already genius. Hence why we have never replaced either. Almost no one at our level ever does.
 

This is why Brentford did what I suggested proctor hoc and kept their weapons at any cost, risked a smaller squad, got existing players to run harder in return and saved their money for a dreamt for ‘new weapon opportunity’ (which dramatically turned up Eriksen heart-shaped).

Of course no money and ‘letting the managers manage’ played notable roles too.

The question always looked like ‘was that decision based on ambition for Norwich or ambition for you Stuart?’

@Don J Demorr pointed out the key roles of Boards and Non-Executive Boards was and is to recognise capability, capacity, sporting and financial ceilings and apply strategy and tactics accordingly. 

If Webber overreached, who had hold of his shirt sleeves?

Parma 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[KeiranShikari 1,433]

A good read, Wolfey.  Up until recently I think I'd have agreed with pretty much all of it. Or at least would have wanted to.

My thoughts are now that a change is almost certainly necessary.  He's very obviously the lead 'cultural architect' within the club and almost all of the negativity around the club can be traced back to how he handled criticism last season. Without seeing any intent from him to alter course we can only assume that this snowball is going to keep rolling until it's weight triggers an avalanche. 

Webber is obviously a maverick and his highs here will be remembered for decades to come but unfortunately he's been shot down, by himself I might add.

I can't remember who from but I saw a tweet earlier on today that said 'Webber from 2017 would hate the Norwich of today'. I think that sums it up perfectly.

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

Totally see your point of view regarding the first half of the post. I'd be happy for him to stay longer than a year if he wants to do so; I believe him when he says he definitely wouldn't want to let the club down, and I believe he genuinely cares about leaving a good legacy for the football club after he leaves – even despite him appearing very single-minded and career-driven. I'm guessing you probably don't agree; if so that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

I come back to it again, though; even if you think he 'should' leave tomorrow, he won't. D&M won't sack him as then the focus falls squarely back on them to steer the ship, and I don't believe he will step down as I believe he is committed to the club and the role (as outlined in my OP).

9 weeks ago he was interview by Chelsea though, and clearly would have taken the job if offered, so I'm afraid I don't really understand where you are coming from here. 

He left Huddersfield on 30th March 2017 to join us with them in 3rd place, didn't stick around to see through his job there did he, even with automatic promotion a possibility at that stage. leaving 2.5 months before their play-off final victory (although I see you are still giving him the full credit, rather than the pro-rata credit). Yes he appointed the coach and oversaw their recruitment, but it was a very odd time to leave and didn't show much loyalty or commitment. If they'd failed to win promotion then I suspect Huddersfield fans would have blamed him for rocking the boat and unsettling the club, in fact he did do (slid from 3rd to 5th).

I don't really see any evidence at all to support that he gives priority to a clubs needs over his own if I'm honest. He considered us a step up on Huddersfield, he'd jump at the chance of the next step as soon as it appeared in front of him, which is exactly what he did to Huddersfield when he joined us.

Edited December 21, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

9 weeks ago he was interview by Chelsea though, and clearly would have taken the job if offered, so I'm afraid I don't really understand where you are coming from here. 

He left Huddersfield on 30th March 2017 to join us with them in 3rd place, didn't stick around to see through his job there did he, even with automatic promotion a possibility at that stage. leaving 2.5 months before their play-off final victory (although I see you are still giving him the full credit, rather than the pro-rata credit). Yes he appointed the coach and oversaw their recruitment, but it was a very odd time to leave and didn't show much loyalty or commitment. If they'd failed to win promotion then I suspect Huddersfield fans would have blamed him for rocking the boat and unsettling the club, in fact he did do (slid from 3rd to 5th).

I don't really see any evidence at all to support that he gives priority to a clubs needs over his own if I'm honest. He considered us a step up on Huddersfield, he'd jump at the chance of the next step as soon as it appeared in front of him, which is exactly what he did to Huddersfield when he joined us.

He didn't get the Chelsea job, so he remains committed here. Who wouldn't accept a colossal pay rise to join a much more successful and wealthy organisation? The fact that he was even considered shows that he is held in high regard in the game. It's just not in the man's nature to 'phone it in', but that's not mutually exclusive with being open to offers from elsewhere.

As for the Huddersfield thing, he was only there for two years, although he appointed Wagner a few months later and then some of his signings in summer 2016 were instrumental in backing Wagner's style of play (they went from 19th in his first season to 5th in the second).

Perhaps he's realised that there's more to his career than just rampantly progressing an upward trajectory. Maybe he actually really likes this club and its owners. The fact he's been here five and a half years, despite originally saying he'd be gone after three, shows that he felt he had more work to do here, as he made it clear he had had enquiries/offers from elsewhere (including abroad, IIRC).

It's all still conjecture, though, isn't it?

[wcorkcanary 4,337]

3 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

Cantwell is frozen out.

The only bit  in your post im not in 100% agreement with Wolfo, frozen out? Or given the time and space to get whatever issues he has, sorted.  If you have any evidence to back up the  'frozen out'  bit.. i apologise.  

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

The only bit  in your post im not in 100% agreement with Wolfo, frozen out? Or given the time and space to get whatever issues he has, sorted.  If you have any evidence to back up the  'frozen out'  bit.. i apologise.  

Er, that wasn't my post! I think you've copied it from my reply to @Petriix's post, as he was the person who said that.

[wcorkcanary 4,337]

1 minute ago, Feedthewolf said:

Er, that wasn't my post! I think you've copied it from my reply to @Petriix's post, as he was the person who said that.

😀in that case double apologies Wolfo.....did strike me as odd!! Doh!!

[Petriix 2,853]

24 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

The only bit  in your post im not in 100% agreement with Wolfo, frozen out? Or given the time and space to get whatever issues he has, sorted.  If you have any evidence to back up the  'frozen out'  bit.. i apologise.  

It was me. I stand by it. Cantwell was not included in the squad for the Blackburn game but was fit and available. He took part in the post match training session on the pitch for the players who weren't involved.

As far as I can tell he's been dropped for refusing to sign a new contract, or maybe just not fitting the Smithball system. I can't imagine a scenario where Sinani is genuinely considered to be a better player than Cantwell. 

[shefcanary 2,448]

Some on here seem to ignore the impact of Webber's wife!

Zoe had strong connections at the club before he arrived (I'm absolutely certain she coached him before his interview). Currently Zoe is more senior than Webber, from what we understand given she is the only Executive on the Board she line manages him. If he voluntarily leaves, then you could see Zoe staying on. But she could never fire him so he stays until he's pushed by someone else. There is no designated Chair on the Board, it would fall to Smith & Jones as majority shareholders, and we know what they are like for sacking people.

The financial position of the club, the media position of the club, the on field performance of the club, indeed from what is emerging the HR position of the club, all bring into question the corporate governance of the club. The only things that seem positive are Colney, the league position and the arrival on the scene of Attanasio. All this has happened under the Webbers' watch.

For these reasons the Webbers have to go. I'm struggling to see how there is anything but one tale to tell from hereon, if the club is going to make any progression. I've outlined this above. The only issue is how quickly Attanasio grasps the need to start the next stage of the process. 

[sonyc 5,541]

58 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Zoe had strong connections at the club before he arrived (I'm absolutely certain she coached him before his interview). Currently Zoe is more senior than Webber, from what we understand given she is the only Executive on the Board she line manages him. If he voluntarily leaves, then you could see Zoe staying on. But she could never fire him so he stays until he's pushed by someone else. There is no designated Chair on the Board, it would fall to Smith & Jones as majority shareholders, and we know what they are like for sacking people.

Nail on head here SC. And I know your thoughts on corporate governance. It is a really unusual situation we have (with our husband and wife owners and Zoe and Stuart)! Zoe is a very impressive person (behind every successful man is...??) and I don't doubt her business acumen and she makes for a better communicator, albeit she keeps her counsel. What a conflict though they face. All is well when everything goes well on the pitch. It creates a tension that could be difficult to manage (not that they are not utterly professional but they are human beings after all). It reminds me of potential conflicts of interest in my career. The answer always is that you remove all possibility of things that can be complicated beforehand.

Attanasio will sweep in the changes I'm sure.

Anyway, like others have said I just wish for some good results to bring some Xmas cheer at least. Because otherwise the pressure will just keep building.

2023 will be interesting if nothing else. 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by sonyc

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

Very interesting read @Feedthewolf, and one you've obviously put a lot of thought into.

Even though I've been very firmly in the 'Webber out' for a long time now - I guess if not from the evening he sacked Farke then a few days later when it became apparent that he'd done so without a scooby about who he wanted to take his place.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of good stuff in your post but IMO you have seriously under-estimated the amount of damage Webber has inflicted on the legacy that most of us were expecting, not too long ago, he would be leaving us when he moved on.

It seems to me that although there will be (hopefully) an overall positve legacy, it will mostly consist of the bricks and mortar stuff at the training ground. But on the pitch and in the bank we appear to be back to a distinctly similar scenario to the one we were in on his arrival (and we are continuing sliding downwards at the moment) - even a good Head Coach appointment in the near future, however welcome, will have a very limited impact, I suspect, on how we view his overall legacy.

As the much overused football cliche goes, his tenure has been very much a game of two halves - pretty stellar first half performance but crashed and burned after the half time break.

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

As the much overused football cliche goes, his tenure has been very much a game of two halves - pretty stellar first half performance but crashed and burned after the half time break.

Agreed. And to add more detail to the metaphor, he got us a 3-0 lead in the first half. But at this very moment we're only 3-2 up and under the cosh. Keep with Smith and fail to go up this season and we're basically at 3-3. Arguably 4-3 down.

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Agreed. And to add more detail to the metaphor, he got us a 3-0 lead in the first half. But at this very moment we're only 3-2 up and under the cosh. Keep with Smith and fail to go up this season and we're basically at 3-3. Arguably 4-3 down.

It's a bit of a strained metaphor, and the reality is a lot more nuanced, but I broadly agree with what you're both saying.

Something I neglected to factor into my OP, which I also think needs to be considered, is the impact of the pandemic. It was much easier for richer owners to simply cushion the effects of that financial black hole, whereas for a self-sustaining club like ours, an estimated loss of around £30m was absolutely monumental.

This presumably also had a huge impact upon our ability to retain Buendia, and consequently our options to replace him in whatever guise. I think this has had a huge impact on where we find ourselves now, both in terms of financial position and 'weapons' in the playing squad. No previous incumbent of a senior executive role at the club has ever had to face anything quite like that before.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

This presumably also had a huge impact upon our ability to retain Buendia

I don't see the logic there. We spent, what was it, £65 million that summer? And bringing Buendia in brought us in, what, £35 million?

We could have kept Buendia and just spent £30 million and been in a lot better place. I get the argument about him wanting out, but he was under contract, quite a long one if I recall. We've seen it before, remember Harry Kane two or three seasons back? Threw his toys out of the pram, Levy stood firm and here we are. I don't buy the argument that he would have refused to play, it would have been biting his nose off to spite his face. If he was promised a way out if he stayed for the Championship season, then that can also be chalked up as Webber failure, if you can find space for it on the blackboard.

Selling Buendia was a choice.

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

I don't see the logic there. We spent, what was it, £65 million that summer? And bringing Buendia in brought us in, what, £35 million?

We could have kept Buendia and just spent £30 million and been in a lot better place. I get the argument about him wanting out, but he was under contract, quite a long one if I recall. We've seen it before, remember Harry Kane two or three seasons back? Threw his toys out of the pram, Levy stood firm and here we are. I don't buy the argument that he would have refused to play, it would have been biting his nose off to spite his face. If he was promised a way out if he stayed for the Championship season, then that can also be chalked up as Webber failure, if you can find space for it on the blackboard.

Selling Buendia was a choice.

The logic is that we're a self-funding club, and we had £30m taken out of our cashflow. That's a colossal amount of money, which had to be accounted for somehow.

Of course everything in your second paragraph is contingent upon whether or not we actually could have kept Buendia. We'll never know for sure, but Parma (whose opinions I respect hugely) implied earlier that he thought it was a choice on our part to sell (i.e. agreeing with your point of view).

Never mind hindsight; if at the time you'd offered me a choice between keeping Buendia and spending £30m less on new signings, or selling Buendia and paying £30m more on new signings, I'd have 100% kept Buendia. We'll never know the ins and outs of it.

[Monty13 2,251]

I never took the 90% comment to be anything but it was, either through arrogance or honesty, an admission that taking on such a challenge would impact his finite time. You can be as driven and determined as you like, but ultimately you only have so many waking hours to dedicate to things.

He’s done a lot of good in terms of infrastructure and Championship titles, but his legacy is starting to crumble IMO and too many ill advised comments are coming back to bite him. I fear he reached his peak and found himself wanting. No one can deny Norwich is PL survival at its hardest but we look much further away from achieving that now than 2 years ago.

My main issue is regardless of the motivation for it there has been a change in the clubs relationship with the supporters and media, the wedge driven there is what’s hurting the club most IMO.

[Mengo 825]

12 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I don't see the logic there. We spent, what was it, £65 million that summer? And bringing Buendia in brought us in, what, £35 million?

We could have kept Buendia and just spent £30 million and been in a lot better place. I get the argument about him wanting out, but he was under contract, quite a long one if I recall. We've seen it before, remember Harry Kane two or three seasons back? Threw his toys out of the pram, Levy stood firm and here we are. I don't buy the argument that he would have refused to play, it would have been biting his nose off to spite his face. If he was promised a way out if he stayed for the Championship season, then that can also be chalked up as Webber failure, if you can find space for it on the blackboard.

Selling Buendia was a choice.

Selling Buendia was a choice 👌 and the prìck Webber decided it was a good choice , I see no benefit in him staying here a moment  longer. The whole situation around the place is toxic and the club needs to get its act together rather quickly or we are for sure in free fall.