Parma’s State of the Nation

[Nuff Said 5,176]

Unlike a lot of the recent posters on this thread who seem to have a romantic, do-or-die view of what NCFC should (and possibly did) represent, I’m all for a practical, balanced mix of guile AND skill, youth AND experience. It might not be the quixotic, individual path that we can hold aloft and display as manifesting our zeal to rise above the somewhat grubby world of professional football, but it is a valid compromise to the challenges of living in the real world.
 

I’m more excited about next season based on what we’ve seen happen so far than I was the last. Am I alone in this? (Granted, maybe not a great comparison given who our coach was).

[essex canary 505]

38 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Unlike a lot of the recent posters on this thread who seem to have a romantic, do-or-die view of what NCFC should (and possibly did) represent, I’m all for a practical, balanced mix of guile AND skill, youth AND experience. It might not be the quixotic, individual path that we can hold aloft and display as manifesting our zeal to rise above the somewhat grubby world of professional football, but it is a valid compromise to the challenges of living in the real world.
 

I’m more excited about next season based on what we’ve seen happen so far than I was the last. Am I alone in this? (Granted, maybe not a great comparison given who our coach was).

In many ways that seems a perfectly rational point of view.

The challenge perhaps is that for a relatively small Club to, at times, stay in the Premier League for a while (even if relegation is inevitable at some point further down the line) something more robust and dynamic in terms of decision making and resource management will be required hence this discussion.

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

16 hours ago, ricardo said:

I naively assumed that the club meant what they said when they decided to move in a different direction and for a while their actions appeared to confirm this e,g. There being no call to sack the manager after the first relegation from the Premier League.

The impression i had was that we had moved away from the established idea of sacking managers in the hope of success and were intent on building for a future based on the type of football and style of play that Daniel Farke had instigated. My feelings were that this gave us a unique identity and despite the results being harder to come by in the top league, it was an identity that we would strive  to maintain. In the long run and due to financial constraints this might only make us perennial yoyo club but personally speaking that would not be a bad thing.

Sadly it seems that somebody in authority wasn't 100% committed to the idea and ditched the project. Now we find ourselves back with every other football club, hoping the next manager might hit the jackpot.

Ive been a supporter for seventy years and i have seen good times and bad times but I've only ever seen one dream time.

It won't  come again.

Fantastic post @Ricardo, sums up everything I feel and would like to have said about the last few years but I doubt that I could have put it so eloquently.

[Petriix 2,853]

I think this is a reasonable time to wallow in the self-pity of recent failures and perform a gory post-mortem on the cadaver of Farkeball to truly understand how it died so suddenly. 

I'll always differ in my views from some others who (in my opinion) either place too much emphasis on the single event of selling Buendia or claim that Farke was so bad in the top-flight that sacking him was right at the time.

The problem, as I see it, is simply the underlying belief that a) we should automatically be able to compete in the Premier League and, b) the only way to achieve this was through a fundamental change to the process which had given us two Championship titles in two attempts.

Ironically enough, I think a more dogmatic adherence to the original plan (with greater continuity of style, recruitment, philosophy etc.) would have been far more successful. Ultimately we can never actually know, but the events as they did unfold represent just about the worst outcome we could have envisaged. So it's probably fair for those of us who vociferously backed Farkeball to roll our eyes a little at the people who wanted him out.

But this is also the time to look forwards. Indeed there's little to be gained from focusing on the past other than how it might help inform future decisions. And forwards we must look because the squad now contains none of the goalscorers or creators. 

The good news is that things can't actually get any worse in the short term. Our form at the end of the season, if continued, would see us relegated to League One so a period of mediocrity would actually represent a significant improvement. And the skill level of the remaining players sets the bar very low for any new signings. 

Better still is that, with low expectations, any success will come as a great surprise. So now is very much a time for shedding any sense of entitlement and taking each game as it comes. If you boo the team, even when they make mistakes and lose, you're only perpetuating the negative cycle; players aren't going to improve if we put them under pressure.

Let's take a bit of time to see where we are when the dust settles. Hopefully we'll get a new sporting director under a proper corporate structure with a decent injection of funds and a more progressive outlook. For the time being we should be getting behind the team and enjoying the roller-coaster that is supporting Norwich City. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Petriix

[Robert N. LiM 4,481]

48 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Better still is that, with low expectations, any success will come as a great surprise. So now is very much a time for shedding any sense of entitlement and taking each game as it comes. If you boo the team, even when they make mistakes and lose, you're only perpetuating the negative cycle; players aren't going to improve if we put them under pressure.

Loved the whole post. But especially like the ethos behind this bit. Being title favourites sat very uneasily on us last season, fans and team alike. The only silver lining of the decline that's been autopsied on this excellent thread is hopefully that the entitlement you mention might be replaced by a sense of a fresh start, an acceptance that a refreshed squad will need a bit of time and patience, and a restatement of the usual relationship between fans and players. Hope we can all get behind them next season.

[Monty13 2,251]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Loved the whole post. But especially like the ethos behind this bit. Being title favourites sat very uneasily on us last season, fans and team alike. The only silver lining of the decline that's been autopsied on this excellent thread is hopefully that the entitlement you mention might be replaced by a sense of a fresh start, an acceptance that a refreshed squad will need a bit of time and patience, and a restatement of the usual relationship between fans and players. Hope we can all get behind them next season.

I think the only issue with that, because I agree with the sentiment entirely, is a fresh start mentality usually requires some kind of catalyst.

Webber’s still in charge, although we know he’s leaving. Wagner saw out a pretty wretched end to a poor season. Attanasio is still teasing us with will he/won’t he be the new owner.

We are in a transition period no doubt, and there’s nothing to stop this being a good season, but it just feels to me like some kind of fundamental change at Owner/SD/Manager level is needed to really start fresh and set the vision for the future everyone can get behind.

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

5 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I think the only issue with that, because I agree with the sentiment entirely, is a fresh start mentality usually requires some kind of catalyst.

Webber’s still in charge, although we know he’s leaving. Wagner saw out a pretty wretched end to a poor season. Attanasio is still teasing us with will he/won’t he be the new owner.

We are in a transition period no doubt, and there’s nothing to stop this being a good season, but it just feels to me like some kind of fundamental change at Owner/SD/Manager level is needed to really start fresh and set the vision for the future everyone can get behind.

A great deal of sense in that post, and those from Robert and Petriix. Last season was pretty dire, but in some quarters there has been a touch of an over-reactive catastrophism. Yes, there has been a serious rupture in what seemed to be the vision for the club, but that doesn't mean it will be impossible to return to the chosen path. We ended up in mid-table in the Championship, not relegated to League One and/or bankrupt... 

I would make a couple of supplementary points. Even though Attanasio has not yet taken over (and I do not expect him to for some while yet) he is a director. And if, as some knowledgeable posters believe, as do I, that there has been a serious lack of managerial oversight in the boardroom then I expect his presence will help to put that right.

As to Webber leaving, he said at the outset he would recommend his successor, and I have not heard anything to indicate that won't happen. That the job is definitely not going to Adams suggests some outsider approved by Webber (and perhaps also by Wagner) has been or is being lined up. If so then the continuity at the heart of the SD+head coach system might well be kept.

Edited June 26, 2023 by PurpleCanary

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

Farke's sacking looks dumber by the week. At the time it felt correct to me, but then I'd also love to go back even all the way to the summer of 2019 and not have this be our damn list of incoming players:

Josip Drmić, Aidan Fitzpatrick, Rocky Bushiri, Charlie Gilmour, Sam Byram, Patrick Roberts, Ralf Fährmann, Ibrahim Amadou

Abysmal.  It's hard not to put that failure together with the summer of 2021 among other dealings and start to wonder if Webber wasn't the main problem instead of Farke. And, yes, the club massively misses the esprit de corps and thus identity of the Farke years even at the expense of PL.

I just want to feel good again. Someone make that happen please.

 

[sgncfc 1,253]

Some fine points on this post. One which I raised early on and which I think Don has brought up again is "what does success look like, and how will we know we've achieved it?" In a business context it's a question I ask every time I start a new project, yet no one at NCFC has ever seemed to ask that question let alone try to answer it, other than with a vague, "Establish the club in the Premier League".

So, is that irrespective of playing style, debt, reputation or do we have some guidance as to how we try to achieve that "success"? Does it include a successful Academy? Does it include a "world class" training venue? Does it include a stadium with a capacity for more than 30,000 people? Does it include the women's team in something? What does "establish" mean anyway - 5 years? 10? Do they really mean "compete" rather than "establish" - if so, what does "compete" mean?

"Ignore the noise" and other soundbites was never really enough of a philosophy to get us there.

Without a CEO leading an aligned Board, with appropriate accountability and responsibilities I just don't see how anything else follows.

Despite our recent partial success, we haven't actually achieved that much. Without some kind of measurement we don't even know how much is not much.

What is the Board's policy and plan for the next 5, 10 and 20 years? Even without parachute TV money NCFC turns over around £30m a year. It's a decent sized business. I've never known a £30m company not have any kind of plan, yet we don't seem to have one, beyond occasionally winning some games of football. We certainly don't have a clue about what to do when we do win enough games of football to get promoted; and now we also don't seem to know what to do when we don't.

I recall Webber being interviewed on the pitch, I think it was after the Blackburn game when we confirmed promotion in 2019. He said it had come earlier than they'd expected and it was surprising to the club and the coaching team what had been achieved that season. I realised then he was out of his depth - no one in an executive position should be surprised by achievement. He should have had all kinds of plans in place already. 

 

 

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

22 hours ago, ricardo said:

I naively assumed that the club meant what they said when they decided to move in a different direction and for a while their actions appeared to confirm this e,g. There being no call to sack the manager after the first relegation from the Premier League.

The impression i had was that we had moved away from the established idea of sacking managers in the hope of success and were intent on building for a future based on the type of football and style of play that Daniel Farke had instigated. My feelings were that this gave us a unique identity and despite the results being harder to come by in the top league, it was an identity that we would strive  to maintain. In the long run and due to financial constraints this might only make us perennial yoyo club but personally speaking that would not be a bad thing.

Sadly it seems that somebody in authority wasn't 100% committed to the idea and ditched the project. Now we find ourselves back with every other football club, hoping the next manager might hit the jackpot.

Ive been a supporter for seventy years and i have seen good times and bad times but I've only ever seen one dream time.

It won't  come again.

 

Absolutely brilliant! Kudos young man.

 

There's an argument to be made, perhaps, that Webber's greatest achievement wasn't Farke, per se, but was in hiring a manager who would finally instill an identity to the Club that COULD work long-term. Norwich have serious constraints BUT ... pretty possession football + savvy recruiting + player friendly + youth development + spirit is a good combination. In other words ... we should have never ditched the 4-2-3-1 and the desire to build from the back!!

[Mella Yella 40]

21 hours ago, ricardo said:

I naively assumed that the club meant what they said when they decided to move in a different direction and for a while their actions appeared to confirm this e,g. There being no call to sack the manager after the first relegation from the Premier League.

The impression i had was that we had moved away from the established idea of sacking managers in the hope of success and were intent on building for a future based on the type of football and style of play that Daniel Farke had instigated. My feelings were that this gave us a unique identity and despite the results being harder to come by in the top league, it was an identity that we would strive  to maintain. In the long run and due to financial constraints this might only make us perennial yoyo club but personally speaking that would not be a bad thing.

Sadly it seems that somebody in authority wasn't 100% committed to the idea and ditched the project. Now we find ourselves back with every other football club, hoping the next manager might hit the jackpot.

Ive been a supporter for seventy years and i have seen good times and bad times but I've only ever seen one dream time.

It won't  come again.

A more poignant post I have yet to read on these forums. thank you Ricardo.

I too thought the same, managers come & go, as do players, but that time round I thought we were onto something, to get a team playing like that, with the resources we had, & the players that were available, getting the best out them, giving youngsters a chance, getting the team believing in something, getting the fans behind it, even the national press started to take notice. At that point it has always been that our managers leave for bigger & better things, that our best players leave for better bigger & better things, but I thought that hang on a minute, we got something good going on here. How wrong I was, we shot the goose that laid the golden egg, & I still wait to see a manager who could get a team playing better.

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

Summer of 2021 ... 4 marquee signings at significant, for us, financial outlay that to me make zero sense based on what we'd seen previously in 3 seasons of Farkeball ... Rashica, Sargent, Tzolis, Lees-Melou.

I don't get it. We pissed it up the wall, Stu.

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

4 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

The only silver lining of the decline that's been autopsied on this excellent thread is hopefully that the entitlement you mention might be replaced by a sense of a fresh start, an acceptance that a refreshed squad will need a bit of time and patience, and a restatement of the usual relationship between fans and players.

 

Oh, indeed. Totally. We should all have our egos massively checked. Which is a good thing. A great thing! Humbled and ready for something fresh I'm hoping we can finish 10th or thereabouts and I'm okay with that.

[ricardo 7,401]

1 hour ago, Mella Yella said:

A more poignant post I have yet to read on these forums. thank you Ricardo.

I feel i must apologise for getting a tad emotional at the end of my recent post but being a NCFC fan has for me always been more about the heart than the head. If it had been just about the results I would have fallen by the wayside a long time ago.

I have often cautioned people on this Forum not to get too attached to players and managers because they all move on or move up. Unfortunately with the sacking of Daniel  Farke I failed to take my own advice. Foolish perhaps but I really did believe that we were set on a different path and it did leave me feeling bitter and disillusioned for a while.

I will always feel that we carelessly discarded something that was exceptional but I have rationalised it to the extent that joy and despair have always been an intrinsic part of the fortunes of our great club and at bottom none of us true believers would swap it with the followers of Man City, Liverpool etc etc. 

The past is gone and we must leave regrets behind us.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

23 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I feel i must apologise for getting a tad emotional at the end of my recent post but being a NCFC fan has for me always been more about the heart than the head. If it had been just about the results I would have fallen by the wayside a long time ago.

I have often cautioned people on this Forum not to get too attached to players and managers because they all move on or move up. Unfortunately with the sacking of Daniel  Farke I failed to take my own advice. Foolish perhaps but I really did believe that we were set on a different path and it did leave me feeling bitter and disillusioned for a while.

I will always feel that we carelessly discarded something that was exceptional but I have rationalised it to the extent that joy and despair have always been an intrinsic part of the fortunes of our great club and at bottom none of us true believers would swap it with the followers of Man City, Liverpool etc etc. 

The past is gone and we must leave regrets behind us.

You have nothing to apologise for Ricardo.

Your original post was perfect. Eloquent, heartfelt, intelligent and empathetic. 

New season, new signings, new Manager, New Sporting Director, New owner. Everybody loves new. One of the world’s most effective sales tools. 

However some things are David Gow and some things are Grant Holt. Whatever Sky says.

We have lost a great deal - on many, many levels. It was so unnecessary.

It so rarely happens and it’s what we all live for as fans. The pride in our team. Seeing them play the way we all dream of. ‘Guardiola watches us in his spare time’

It was historically successful. As Webber himself acknowledged. And we traded it for what?

Of course Wagner could be a Lambert. Of course you could stumble on a Hoolahan a Huckerby or a Holt. But you mostly don’t. 

These are historically significant errors, made for flawed reasons, via reflex actions, with some personal motivational drivers, that haven’t worked. 

Parma 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[ricardo 7,401]

Thanks Parma. 

I guess it's what makes football so great, there's always the expectation of the next game, the next season. We cannot rerun it anymore than we can rerun life.

To paraphrase Paul Lambert, "We go again".

[Indy 3,315]

10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Thanks Parma. 

I guess it's what makes football so great, there's always the expectation of the next game, the next season. We cannot rerun it anymore than we can rerun life.

To paraphrase Paul Lambert, "We go again".

I like that we go again, it has to be the only way to go, but confidence is really fragile at the club! Supporters will certainly demand improvement and there’s a real lack of change, we’re firefighting at the moment until things change.

The hope is the players coming in are better than those gone or going! Are they in reality, possibly only time will tell.

Start the season as we finished and it could be a very sticky season! No change at the top, no new investment yet and a coach left to his own devices by the outgoing SD! Not a great situation to be in, so many things still needing to be resolved.

As they say it’s the hope that kills!

Edited June 26, 2023 by Indy

[ricardo 7,401]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

I like that we go again, it has to be the only way to go, but confidence is really fragile at the club! Supporters will certainly demand improvement and there’s a real lack of change, we’re firefighting at the moment until things change.

The hope is the players coming in are better than those gone or going! Are they in reality, possibly only time will tell.

Start the season as we finished and it could be a very sticky season! No change at the top, no new investment yet and a coach left to his own devices by the outgoing SD! Not a great situation to be in, so many things still needing to be resolved.

As they say it’s the hope that kills!

The constant ups and downs of the last couple of decades are the exception rather than the rule. It may become difficult for some to experience a run of in between seasons and the next promotion may be too far away for me. All we can do is live in hope.

OTBC

 

[Indy 3,315]

10 hours ago, ricardo said:

The constant ups and downs of the last couple of decades are the exception rather than the rule. It may become difficult for some to experience a run of in between seasons and the next promotion may be too far away for me. All we can do is live in hope.

OTBC

 

We had that 9 year stint without promotion and I sort of share your hope, but with trepidation! The league this year is really strong, even those who we think should be down fighting relegation are going to be tough.

Lets not beat round the bush, the last two season were appalling and we certainly need a change in form and attitude, but this summer hasn’t produced the investment or takeover, we’ve gone away from younger player to sign three aging pros, this might be a good thing, we’ve lost four decent players and we’re bracing ourselves for two big departures in Omobamadele & Aarons, very good players we should be building the squad around not selling to stay afloat. Aarons has been a model pro but a club like ours should still be attractive for him to stay at, the likes of Fulham or Brentford really shouldn’t by now be considered a step up!

I feel your pain Ricardo, but I hope you enjoy the season and keep those fantastic reports coming! We wait for a lot of positive results 👍💚💛

[Mella Yella 40]

11 hours ago, ricardo said:

I feel i must apologise for getting a tad emotional at the end of my recent post but being a NCFC fan has for me always been more about the heart than the head. If it had been just about the results I would have fallen by the wayside a long time ago.

I have often cautioned people on this Forum not to get too attached to players and managers because they all move on or move up. Unfortunately with the sacking of Daniel  Farke I failed to take my own advice. Foolish perhaps but I really did believe that we were set on a different path and it did leave me feeling bitter and disillusioned for a while.

I will always feel that we carelessly discarded something that was exceptional but I have rationalised it to the extent that joy and despair have always been an intrinsic part of the fortunes of our great club and at bottom none of us true believers would swap it with the followers of Man City, Liverpool etc etc. 

The past is gone and we must leave regrets behind us.

Absolutely no need to apologise Ricardo, emotion is where the true support comes from, the heart.

And I tell you what bor, your match reports are one of the things I enjoy most about our club, they are as important to me as the Canary on the badge, we are lucky to have you, a true supporter, so keep em coming. The first thing I ever read on match days, you put us in the picture, the mood in the ground, the weather, the way you feel, & the EMOTION. Our very own Henry Blofeld of football!

Looking forward to more, onwards & upwards, Thanks Ricardo

[shefcanary 2,448]

14 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

New season, new signings, new Manager, New Sporting Director, New owner. Everybody loves new. One of the world’s most effective sales tools. 

Forgove my lack of engagement recently on this thread, family matters have taken precedent. 

Ricardo is right to point out there was a change in mentality at the top at some point in 21, but I'd argue the seeds for such a flip flop were sown when by default we had a Plc run effectively by two married couples. That was then, but now we are on transition. So focus on what next.

As Parma sets out above we have a lot of "new" to come. Inevitably however it will not be as before, but will it better able us to compete with the EPL? Don hypothesised that perhaps we will have to abide by the EPL association football rules. That may not go down well with a lot of fans.

Let's see what the new vision for the club will be. We as fans are desperate for confirmation of the new direction but Webber the administrator gives no clear statement of how much longer we have to wait under her administration (and mark my words well, it is her administration for now). For all Ethics focus on minority interests, it is likely the current stasis is caused by the Takeover panel noticing some of the implications of the proposed share allotment on such interests. It may have been quicker to have gone private first! It will be what we will deal with in time, might as well get used to it.

If only we had kept an independent Chair and clear executive leader after Balls left. Ah well, it's given me lots to contemplate.

Still, in football anything is possible, I'll still be cheering from the sidelines even if I still think we need to ditch reliance on Hanley and McLean pdq! It's all about opinions, they say, but checks and balances are a must for long term progress. Mark will have to keep young Mike on a short leash.

[sgncfc 1,253]

Whilst also loving Ricardo's post and the sentiments he expresses so well, I also remember feeling much the same when we lost Ron Saunders and then Mike Walker, and maybe even when we sacked Ken Brown. We've had a few "dream" seasons since I've been a supporter and I've revelled in all of them. I remember under Walker visiting Highbury and expecting not to lose (we didn't, we drew); going to OT and expecting to win - we did, twice If I recall correctly. Brown won us a proper trophy and after the league conspired to relegate us he got us back up and to 5th in the old First Division. Then we sacked him.

The Lambert years were also pretty good, as were the Stringer years. Worthington also produced some top performances, and the John Bond years were awesome.

2018-19 felt different partly because it was so unexpected, and because everyone was so onside. For me, it fell apart after lockdown and a little of the magic had gone by the time we won it the second time around - I still think we'd have struggled a bit more with crowds that year and I think we probably weren't as good as we (and everyone else) thought we were.

My point is that golden times will come again. They always do. For NCFC they tend not come to when our expectations are high but when we fear for the worst. And it's much better when they're unexpected.

[Don J Demorr 162]

20 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

It so rarely happens and it’s what we all live for as fans. The pride in our team. Seeing them play the way we all dream of. ‘Guardiola watches us in his spare time’

In responding to Ricardo’s outstanding and heartfelt contribution the ever perceptive Parma has neatly encapsulated the thoughts of many others (you know who you are), which has caused me to pause and think again about things germane to the endemic dissatisfaction.

Overall, this splendid and revealing thread has at least three closely linked themes: -

a)      The need to establish a management structure to meet an agreed purpose

b)      Discussion of how it all “came good” and where it all “went wrong”

c)      The strengths and weaknesses of the players and the team organisation.

In recent times there has been an apparent (but tentative?) change of purpose from Top 26 to Established EPS. This has had consequences including perceived failures, dismissals and supporter dismay. The organisation is now struggling to find itself.

In former posts I have burbled on about a), I know diddly squat about c), so this is mostly about b) and its relationship with a).

[Alert!  Management Consultancy BS Incoming!!!]

    *Any organisation exists primarily to provide a service to its targeted customers.

   *A good organisation provides a service to satisfy its customers

   *An excellent organisation seeks to provide a service to delight its customers

Quite clearly, if the customers of NCFC are the supporters posting here, neither satisfaction nor delight are anywhere in view, and this is worth thinking about. I have been struck by the passion expressed by quite a few of the excellent and impressive posters on here, now so beautifully and poignantly expressed by Ricardo. It was seeing this passion that caused me to see a new viewpoint, which is the distinction between customer wants and needs. A few more axioms: -

*A good organisation fulfils the customer’s wants  

*An excellent organisation fulfils the customer’s needs

*Wants and needs are not at all the same.

Any want can be urgent and pressing, but it can and does change. If your club is in Div 1 you want to be in the Championship but when that want is met you want to be in EPL, then you want to win the Champion’s League, then you want to win it again and again. Wants can never be satisfied, they constantly change.

Any need, on the other hand, is in-built at gut level. It exists amongst many other needs in a hierarchy of importance. There are books and papers on this topic if you want to follow this up. (See Maslow for details).

Maybe what the Owners and Executives of NCFC are seeking (and failing) to meet in such turmoil is a set of self-defined wants, whereas Ricardo and the others are so passionately concerned about is a deep and heartfelt need – the expressed passion being the clue. That need is for for honesty; integrity and good football. That can be satisfied no matter at what level the contests take place. There is no such thing as “Mid-table-mediocrity” if you go home delighted, win or lose. Is this the source of the obvious tension that exists between the fans and the club management?

These priorities cannot coexist. The choice needs to be made somehow, or your club will go nowhere.

An excellent organisation will delight its customers – by meeting their needs.

As a choice, in my book it’s a no-brainer.

Who needs to be in the stinky EPL anyway?

Best to all,

Don

Edited June 27, 2023 by Don J Demorr

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, Don J Demorr said:

In recent times there has been an apparent (but tentative?) change of purpose from Top 26 to Established EPS. This has had consequences including perceived failures, dismissals and supporter dismay. The organisation is now struggling to find itself.

 if the customers of NCFC are the supporters posting here, neither satisfaction nor delight are anywhere in view, and this is worth thinking about. I have been struck by the passion expressed by quite a few of the excellent and impressive posters on here, now so beautifully and poignantly expressed by Ricardo. It was seeing this passion that caused me to see a new viewpoint, which is the distinction between customer wants and needs. A few more axioms: -

Any want can be urgent and pressing, but it can and does change. If your club is in Div 1 you want to be in the Championship but when that want is met you want to be in EPL, then you want to win the Champion’s League, then you want to win it again and again. Wants can never be satisfied, they constantly change.

Maybe what the Owners and Executives of NCFC are seeking (and failing) to meet in such turmoil is a set of self-defined wants, whereas Ricardo and the others are so passionately concerned about is a deep and heartfelt need – the expressed passion being the clue. That need is for for honesty; integrity and good football. That can be satisfied no matter at what level the contests take place. There is no such thing as “Mid-table-mediocrity” if you go home delighted, win or lose. Is this the source of the obvious tension that exists between the fans and the club management?

An excellent organisation will delight its customers – by meeting their needs.

Who needs to be in the stinky EPL anyway?

It is the lot of a football fan to be subjective rather than objective, emotional rather than rationale, to be unsatisfied rather than content. Success is rare and fleeting, while disappointment is common and enduring. The attempt to move from a Top 26 club to effectively a top 17 club failed, but if it had succeeded it soon wouldn't be enough. Ultimately what the fans need is for the club to be there, to exist, to give a sense of identity. What the fans want now, and will want in the future probably isn't obtainable. I thought @ricardo knew this, probably deep inside he did, but he became seduced by something else, the dream, the romance that there was something more important than winning football matches at the highest level. It was how the team played, how they carried themselves. It was Art rather than Science. It was also probably a mirage, it couldn't last because eventually this dualist conflict would destroy it. In fact, it did.

Edited June 27, 2023 by BigFish

[BigFish 1,988]

5 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It is the lot of a football fan to be subjective rather than objective, emotional rather than rationale, to be unsatisfied rather than content. Success is rare and fleeting, while disappointment is common and enduring. The attempt to move from a Top 26 club to effectively a top 17 club failed, but if it had succeeded it soon wouldn't be enough. Ultimately what the fans need is for the club to be there, to exist, to give a sense of identity. What the fans want now, and will want in the future probably isn't obtainable. I thought @ricardo knew this, probably deep inside he did, but he became seduced by something else, the dream, the romance that there was something more important than winning football matches at the highest level. It was how the team played, how they carried themselves. It was Art rather than Science. It was also probably a mirage, it couldn't last because eventually this dualist conflict would destroy it. In fact, it did.

That said, it could have lasted longer than it did, of course.

[ricardo 7,401]

32 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It is the lot of a football fan to be subjective rather than objective, emotional rather than rationale, to be unsatisfied rather than content. Success is rare and fleeting, while disappointment is common and enduring. The attempt to move from a Top 26 club to effectively a top 17 club failed, but if it had succeeded it soon wouldn't be enough. Ultimately what the fans need is for the club to be there, to exist, to give a sense of identity. What the fans want now, and will want in the future probably isn't obtainable. I thought @ricardo knew this, probably deep inside he did, but he became seduced by something else, the dream, the romance that there was something more important than winning football matches at the highest level. It was how the team played, how they carried themselves. It was Art rather than Science. It was also probably a mirage, it couldn't last because eventually this dualist conflict would destroy it. In fact, it did.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with this analysis. I won't pretend to speak for all Norwich City fans but i would be very surprised if my view is minority one.

There is something far more important than winning football matches and it shocks me that you should think otherwise. Many years back at the end of a dreadful season that ended in relegation I was trudging up King St with my dear late son Neil. After a long period on silence I tentatively  ventured to suggest we might save ourselves further pain and chuck our season tickets in. He literally stopped in the street and lectured me about the reasons we were Norwich City supporters and that we would always go to Carrow Rd regardless of what division we were in.  When I thought about it I knew he was right, he had the knack of putting things into perspective.

Of course we want to be successful and enjoy our triumphs but it goes much much deeper than this. It is about making memories, a sense of pride in our city and our community and the joy that shared experiences can bring.

I know it, my son knew it and I sincerely believe that every true NCFC fan feels the same. Our fortunes may fluctuate, Owners, Managers and Our footballing hero's may change but they are not Norwich City Football Club.

We are.

 

 

[Don J Demorr 162]

3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Of course we want to be successful and enjoy our triumphs but it goes much much deeper than this. It is about making memories, a sense of pride in our city and our community and the joy that shared experiences can bring.

Needs, all of them. Profound and permanent. Thank you, sir. That is what the club should be seeking to fulfill.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with this analysis. I won't pretend to speak for all Norwich City fans but i would be very surprised if my view is minority one.

There is something far more important than winning football matches and it shocks me that you should think otherwise. Many years back at the end of a dreadful season that ended in relegation I was trudging up King St with my dear late son Neil. After a long period on silence I tentatively  ventured to suggest we might save ourselves further pain and chuck our season tickets in. He literally stopped in the street and lectured me about the reasons we were Norwich City supporters and that we would always go to Carrow Rd regardless of what division we were in.  When I thought about it I knew he was right, he had the knack of putting things into perspective.

Of course we want to be successful and enjoy our triumphs but it goes much much deeper than this. It is about making memories, a sense of pride in our city and our community and the joy that shared experiences can bring.

I know it, my son knew it and I sincerely believe that every true NCFC fan feels the same. Our fortunes may fluctuate, Owners, Managers and Our footballing hero's may change but they are not Norwich City Football Club.

We are.

 

 

Magnificent Ricardo. Well done for fighting your - our - corner.

@BigFish is certainly one of my favourite posters and I respect his counterpoint view, though it misses too much. 

There are 4 trophies a year to play for at the top level. Four. This year one team won 3 of them. One is a European trophy, one league, 2 cups. That’s it. 

Generally speaking in the recent past, 4 clubs - occasionally stretching to 6 - have been repeatedly involved in sharing those trophies.

So - pace Leicester - winning at the top level is nothing to do with us. We can’t say it, we can even put ‘Premier League at all costs’ on our public letterhead, but it isn’t and can’t be what we are about. Behind closed doors, in our Board room and operations room, we must adjust to our finances, structure and parameters. We must soul search and identify our needs, whilst taming our wanting creature. 

Emotionally as fans we can dream of such glory, play it out on FIFA, set it at a low setting so we can beat Ipswich 8-0 every time we play, though we can’t operate the business like that. 

We must talk about it, push for it, drive on towards it, but….but….….we must recognise that pride, love, beauty and a sense of seeing ourselves played out on the grass in front of us - as we did thrillingly, exceptionally, memorably, realistically, educationally, portentously with Daniel Farke and the positional play methodology he introduced, encouraged and enshrined - is our true apotheosis. 

Winning is ephemeral, a chimera, unsustainable and not - ultimately - the real point. ‘May you not get what you want’ as the Chinese say when they mean ‘good luck’. 

You need thousands of years of mindful wisdom to know why that’s right. 

We must listen to Neil. 

Parma 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[BigFish 1,988]

3 hours ago, ricardo said:

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with this analysis. I won't pretend to speak for all Norwich City fans but i would be very surprised if my view is minority one.

There is something far more important than winning football matches and it shocks me that you should think otherwise. Many years back at the end of a dreadful season that ended in relegation I was trudging up King St with my dear late son Neil. After a long period on silence I tentatively  ventured to suggest we might save ourselves further pain and chuck our season tickets in. He literally stopped in the street and lectured me about the reasons we were Norwich City supporters and that we would always go to Carrow Rd regardless of what division we were in.  When I thought about it I knew he was right, he had the knack of putting things into perspective.

Of course we want to be successful and enjoy our triumphs but it goes much much deeper than this. It is about making memories, a sense of pride in our city and our community and the joy that shared experiences can bring.

I know it, my son knew it and I sincerely believe that every true NCFC fan feels the same. Our fortunes may fluctuate, Owners, Managers and Our footballing hero's may change but they are not Norwich City Football Club.

We are.

 

Maybe I didn't articulate it clearly enough, but you are not disagreeing with me here. This is the point I was trying to make @ricardo my friend. Maybe not clearly enough. It plays into @Don J Demorr's point about what fans need, what fans want and the difference between the two.

[ricardo 7,401]

I guess some just don't have it in their souls Parma. I didn't  choose to become  Norwich City fan,  Norwich City choose me. I certainly wasn't  attracted by the glamour because in one of my earliest seasons we finished stone last in the old Division 3 South., had to apply for re-election and nearly went out of business. Survive that and you can survive anything.

I am reminded of friend from my youth. We both loved football and played the game together at an amateur level. For some reason he became Liverpool fan when they were in their pomp in the 1970's.

Yes, I could appreciate their quality but it used to stick in my craw when he would refer to them as "We". With both of us being Norwich born and bred it puzzled me, I couldn't  see where that conection came from.

For me it is part of my identity as a Norwich person and not something I can just discard when times are bad. There have been many moments of pride and achievement over my lifetime but the style and togertherness of the Farke years was something I had never experienced before. I am not ashamed to say that I think I will always miss it.