Taking the knee on saturday

[Thirsty Lizard 3,167]

22 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

It's all a load of b*ll*cks, to be honest, and will seemingly carry on forever now. Because when do you stop? Racism isn't going to go away - it just isn't, and I actually think this kneeling pre-match is making the situation worse, not better.

Racism certainly won't go away if nobody stands up and challenges it -  that much is for sure. 

[greendoor 16]

This is a good place to remind people of one of our own players positions on this, the views of Christoph Zimmermann when interviewed on the topic in December 2020. 

Why Christoph Zimmermann isn't taking the knee (Paraphrased)

 

"Somebody's decision whether or not to take the knee is a personal one. Zimmermann decided he would respectfully stand. That is his choice and he remains completely against racism and the cause for social justice.

That decision doesn't make Christoph Zimmermann a racist. Nor does it mean he subscribes to the anti-Black Lives Matter campaign that has been launched in some quarters. 

Instead of booing, Zimmermann opts to respect the choice of others. He may not kneel himself but is respectful to those who do. That is the crux of the debate, he is respectful to others with a different perspective.

From his perspective, this is not something that can go on forever."

 

Be like Christoph, respect others right to take the knee if they wish.  If you cannot be respectful to our own players then you need to think about why you attend football as a supporter of these same players. 

For those that might decide to Boo the gesture, just remember that a Norwich City "fan" was ejected for exactly that at one of our games last season. 

[alex_ncfc 662]

1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Racism certainly won't go away if nobody stands up and challenges it -  that much is for sure. 

But even if they do it won't! That's the point - they've been doing this knee nonsense for over a year now and we are no further forward, and as I say, it's actually seemingly making things go backwards. They should just focus on the Kick it Out campaign and leave it at that.

[JB 115]

7 minutes ago, greendoor said:

For those that might decide to Boo the gesture, just remember that a Norwich City "fan" was ejected for exactly that at one of our games last season. 

I know this did happen, but I wonder if ejecting someone for booing, for whatever reason, is quite right under rules and laws. Freedom of expression does sound like it's being suppressed here, by a non law enforcing body too. Whether you agree with the booing or not, I think you have to be careful with how people's views are reacted upon. If booing is banned, do we not boo, for example a former Ipswich player, through fear of being thrown out for taking part in hate?

Edited August 12, 2021 by JB

[greendoor 16]

1 minute ago, JB said:

I know this did happen, but I wonder if ejecting someone for booing, for whatever reason, is quite right under rules and laws. Freedom of expression does sound like it's being suppressed here, by a non law enforcing body too. Whether you agree with the booing or not, I think you have to be careful with how peoples view's are reacted upon.  

I don't know the rules and laws exactly. But, I think it would be down to the interpretation of what the booing amounted to be, if it is thought to be vocalizing a racist opinion then the club would be within their rights to eject the individual.

[JB 115]

Just now, greendoor said:

I don't know the rules and laws exactly. But, I think it would be down to the interpretation of what the booing amounted to be, if it is thought to be vocalizing a racist opinion then the club would be within their rights to eject the individual.

Completely agree that any hate should result in ejection, but it would be so hard to prove in a court that any booing was hateful. Vocalising a racist opinion is not booing in my book as no actual words are used. Very tricky to judge though. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Surely its got nothing to do with the crowd. Its footballers supporting their fellow union members who have faced abuse either individually or as a group.

If people in the crowd boo, then its up to the crowd to tell them to shut up or report them to stewards.

[GenerationA47 756]

2 minutes ago, JB said:

Completely agree that any hate should result in ejection, but it would be so hard to prove in a court that any booing was hateful. Vocalising a racist opinion is not booing in my book as no actual words are used. Very tricky to judge though. 

Assume they’d only have to show that the person has contravened the new code of conduct for supporters… which presumably becomes a T&C for use of the match ticket / entry to the stadium, it being private property and all.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,028]

4 hours ago, horsefly said:

That's a very optimistic assessment MY.

When the "Stand Up if you hate the scum" song starts I remain seated and say to those sitting near me "Just assume that I do, I am not standing up as I have only just sat down and it will take me ages to stand up again"......

Edited August 12, 2021 by Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB

[Badger 2,407]

1 hour ago, Slw87 said:

What do you think taking the knee will achieve?

Ironically, the very fact that you are discussing it shows what it can do. It has kept the issue of racism in the public eye far more effectively that Kick it Out (not that I wish to denigrate their efforts).

Awareness of the issue is only a start, but without things like this, it would soon be forgotten about by a lot of those that do not experience it.

 

[JB 115]

1 minute ago, GenerationA47 said:

Assume they’d only have to show that the person has contravened the new code of conduct for supporters… which presumably becomes a T&C for use of the match ticket / entry to the stadium, it being private property and all.

Is that a new thing?

[JB 115]

Just now, Badger said:

Ironically, the very fact that you are discussing it shows what it can do. It has kept the issue of racism in the public eye far more effectively that Kick it Out (not that I wish to denigrate their efforts).

Awareness of the issue is only a start, but without things like this, it would soon be forgotten about by a lot of those that do not experience it.

 

Can certainly agree with it keeping it in our minds. A lot of the time though, whether it be our circle of friends, our work colleagues, or even on this forum, it can cause great division of opinion which can often lead to resentment and to put it bluntly, the falling out of friends. That can be the ugly side of such a debate

[Badger 2,407]

34 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

Racism isn't going to go away - it just isn't, and I actually think this kneeling pre-match is making the situation worse, not better.

??

Please try explain how footballers kneeling before a match is making racism worse.

[alex_ncfc 662]

Just now, Badger said:

??

Please try explain how footballers kneeling before a match is making racism worse.

Probably because every other week now there's a story in the media about a player being racially abused? I don't remember it being this bad a few years back.

It certainly isn't making things better is it? Plus it just winds people up because they go to watch the football and not this pathetic kneeling nonsense. 

[horsefly 4,303]

19 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

But even if they do it won't! That's the point - they've been doing this knee nonsense for over a year now and we are no further forward, and as I say, it's actually seemingly making things go backwards. They should just focus on the Kick it Out campaign and leave it at that.

Did you watch the Euros? Public support for the "gesture" increased remarkably precisely because it showed fantastic comaraderie among the players and contributed to excellent team performances. The fact it drew out several racists only increased that support further. Indeed the racist responses to the players is precisely what ensured that taking the knee continued into this season.

[GenerationA47 756]

8 minutes ago, JB said:

Is that a new thing?

Believe so, I saw a new one being advertised this week. Just putting 2 and 2 together.

Just like any private club can eject you if they don’t like your behaviour, that’s all I mean

[Badger 2,407]

4 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

Probably because every other week now there's a story in the media about a player being racially abused? I don't remember it being this bad a few years back.

That's the whole point!

For years it wasn't even reported because it wasn't news - nobody was interested - now it's right in the public eye and fans get called out for it, when possible. At the very least, a least racists have to keep their mouths shut or run the risk of being thrown out as most people will happily report them now!

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

That's the whole point!

For years it wasn't even reported because it wasn't news - nobody was interested - now it's right in the public eye and fans get called out for it, when possible. At the very least, a least racists have to keep their mouths shut or run the risk of being thrown out as most people will happily report them now!

Nailed it. There's bound to be a huge increase in reported cases simply as with gestures like this (amongst other far more far-reaching measures), those affected may think they'll get serious treatment and remedy for it now instead of it being swept under the carpet.

Not convinced Kick It Out has been - that - successful if it's been going on for as long as it has. Looks like it needs all the help it can get, for me.

Edited August 12, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[Thirsty Lizard 3,167]

52 minutes ago, JB said:

I know this did happen, but I wonder if ejecting someone for booing, for whatever reason, is quite right under rules and laws. Freedom of expression does sound like it's being suppressed here, by a non law enforcing body too. Whether you agree with the booing or not, I think you have to be careful with how people's views are reacted upon. If booing is banned, do we not boo, for example a former Ipswich player, through fear of being thrown out for taking part in hate?

We went through all this at the time. At the end of the day Norwich City are a private club - and they can make rules about what they deem acceptable on their private premises. Just like the landlord of The Murderers can. If you don't want to risk getting thrown out - don't boo when the players take the knee. It's really breathtakingly simple! 

[JB 115]

1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

We went through all this at the time. At the end of the day Norwich City are a private club - and they can make rules about what they deem acceptable on their private premises. Just like the landlord of The Murderers can. If you don't want to risk getting thrown out - don't boo when the players take the knee. It's really breathtakingly simple! 

That's fine. Completely accept the club can make their own rules for ejection. Just a little less clear on how they could prove beyond doubt, if taken to court, that any booing was for any specific reason. It just wouldn't stand up

[alex_ncfc 662]

1 minute ago, JB said:

That's fine. Completely accept the club can make their own rules for ejection. Just a little less clear on how they could prove beyond doubt, if taken to court, that any booing was for any specific reason. It just wouldn't stand up

This is it - just because they boo the nonsense of "taking" the knee, doesn't make them racist, and then that just throws out the whole concept of Norwich being able to throw out who they like.

Say a black player commits a foul and causes injury to one of our players and the fans decide to boo him for the rest of the game - do they get thrown out? No, because it isn't racist intent.

[horsefly 4,303]

29 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

Probably because every other week now there's a story in the media about a player being racially abused? I don't remember it being this bad a few years back.

It certainly isn't making things better is it? Plus it just winds people up because they go to watch the football and not this pathetic kneeling nonsense. 

Blimey! you must be very young. Anyone who has spent decades on the terraces at CR and elsewhere will tell you a very different story. Racist abuse was a common occurence not that long ago. The difference is that now it's no longer being tolerated.

[Uncle Fred 526]

This woke movement is like **** Germany telling people , what to think , how to behave? What is right and wrong.

at some point a more tolerant society has to come back 

[Crafty Canary 497]

Taking the knee or not is surely a matter of personal choice. What others think of your choice is irrelevant as not taking the knee doesn’t make you a racist. Of course this respect for the choice of others applies to the players so there should definitely be no booing aimed at those that do take the knee.

i wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if Wilf Zaha got abused for being a coconut or Uncle Tom for not taking the knee. 

[lake district canary 4,539]

Personally I think announcements at the start of each game as to how people are expected to behave would be better than taking the knee, which has unfortunately turned into something that is divisive rather than supportive of a good cause.  It just needs a single sentence - "Just a reminder to all that racist abuse is not acceptable at this club and any person seen or heard making racist remarks will be removed from the ground". 

[Foxy2600 304]

Reminds me of our trip to Spurs. In hospitality we overlooked the home supporters next to the tunnel. As the teams came out, all the hard-line supporters pulled masks up over their faces and shouted 'Yids!' -  Then, 'We are Tottenham Hotspur, we'll sing what we want'

I asked one of the stewards what that was about and he replied its the CCTV - we can eject anyone from the ground being seen to chant racist abuse...

So, doubt anyone is gonna have the proof of booing if you are all in masks at CR?

[horsefly 4,303]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Personally I think announcements at the start of each game as to how people are expected to behave would be better than taking the knee, which has unfortunately turned into something that is divisive rather than supportive of a good cause.  It just needs a single sentence - "Just a reminder to all that racist abuse is not acceptable at this club and any person seen or heard making racist remarks will be removed from the ground". 

You really think this would have the same impact as the players taking the knee? I refer you to Badger's post above. 

[Greavsy 2,416]

1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Racism certainly won't go away if nobody stands up and challenges it -  that much is for sure. 

So are we taking a knee or standing up......

 

 

[horsefly 4,303]

24 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

This woke movement is like **** Germany telling people , what to think , how to behave? What is right and wrong.

at some point a more tolerant society has to come back 

I guess you haven't a clue what "woke" means, nor that there is no such thing as a "woke movement". I feel a bit sad for you if you honestly believe that an act of solidarity against racism expressed among fellow football players (for a few seconds) is the same as Na*zi Germany's dictatorship of race hate and genocide.

[lake district canary 4,539]

Just now, horsefly said:

8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Personally I think announcements at the start of each game as to how people are expected to behave would be better than taking the knee, which has unfortunately turned into something that is divisive rather than supportive of a good cause.  It just needs a single sentence - "Just a reminder to all that racist abuse is not acceptable at this club and any person seen or heard making racist remarks will be removed from the ground". 

You really think this would have the same impact as the players taking the knee? I refer you to Badger's post above. 

The taking of the knee sets off a game in an ugly way because it gives racist numbskulls and associate hangers on, the opportunity to voice their racism. You could say that is a good thing because it brings them out into the open to be identified and removed, but the other view is that by not taking the knee and just having a clear announcement as I suggested, it removes that opportunity and just reminds racist ignorants that they are not welcome.