Taking the knee on saturday

[Uncle Fred 526]

Just now, horsefly said:

I guess you haven't a clue what "woke" means, nor that there is no such thing as a "woke movement". I feel a bit sad for you if you honestly believe that an act of solidarity against racism expressed among fellow football players (for a few seconds) is the same as Na*zi Germany's dictatorship of race hate and genocide.

You know full well they are both movements to control thought processes 

[horsefly 4,310]

Just now, Uncle Fred said:

You know full well they are both movements to control thought processes 

Utter nonsense! Your comparison is ridiculous. 

[Badger 2,412]

37 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

This is it - just because they boo the nonsense of "taking" the knee, doesn't make them racist

I think if they boo taking the knee, it's a pretty good indication that they might be racist!

As what makes them racist, ignorance and/ or a feeling of personal inadequacy are probable explanations.

[Badger 2,412]

7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Utter nonsense! Your comparison is ridiculous. 

I wouldn't bother horse fly. He is almost certainly trying to "wind people up." His is a parody account, I'm sure.

If, however, he genuinely believes what he writes, he unquestionably lacks the knowledge and understanding to respond to logical argument.

[horsefly 4,310]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

The taking of the knee sets off a game in an ugly way because it gives racist numbskulls and associate hangers on, the opportunity to voice their racism. You could say that is a good thing because it brings them out into the open to be identified and removed, but the other view is that by not taking the knee and just having a clear announcement as I suggested, it removes that opportunity and just reminds racist ignorants that they are not welcome.

I'm somewhat shocked you would claim it sets off the game in an "ugly way". Quite the contrary, it sets off the game in a way that makes very clear that this is a game that will not tolerate anything other than the equal treatment of all players irrespective of the colour of their skin. How that statement, coming from the players themselves, could be thought of as ugly bewilders me. The idea that we should pander to the sensibilities of racists who can't handle a few seconds of players demonstrating their anti-racist message sends out a terrible message. No doubt this is why it was decided taking the knee would continue into this season. Further, the same racists that would boo players taking the knee, would also likely boo any message put out over a tannoy. I'm confident that Carrow Road will rise to the occasion with overwhelming support when the players drop to the knee, and that will be a very pretty sight indeed.

[chicken 2,642]

1 hour ago, JB said:

I know this did happen, but I wonder if ejecting someone for booing, for whatever reason, is quite right under rules and laws. Freedom of expression does sound like it's being suppressed here, by a non law enforcing body too. Whether you agree with the booing or not, I think you have to be careful with how people's views are reacted upon. If booing is banned, do we not boo, for example a former Ipswich player, through fear of being thrown out for taking part in hate?

A football ground isn't a public space. It's a venue, privately owned.

If you walk into a pub and loudly boo the owner or one of the pub staff, you can be expected to be ejected. They'll value the players above you and they will not want the players thinking that the club will not reject people who boo what they are trying to achieve. There is also the wider impact of the image of the club.

In other words, why not stand outside the stadium and boo, where it is perfectly fine to do so, then go and take your seats after, where it isn't.

If it was against rules and laws or whatever, clubs would never be allowed to have dress codes.

[hogesar 9,736]

Even if you think taking the knee is unlikely to be the most effective method,  and even if you think there is a problem in that some relate it to BLM, I still don't get why you wouldn't support it. Its not causing you personally a problem and even if there's a small chance it makes a positive difference its worth a shout.

If our black players feel like they want to take the knee then they deserve our support.

[lake district canary 4,544]

8 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I'm somewhat shocked you would claim it sets off the game in an "ugly way". Quite the contrary, it sets off the game in a way that makes very clear that this is a game that will not tolerate anything other than the equal treatment of all players irrespective of the colour of their skin. How that statement, coming from the players themselves, could be thought of as ugly bewilders me. The idea that we should pander to the sensibilities of racists who can't handle a few seconds of players demonstrating their anti-racist message sends out a terrible message. No doubt this is why it was decided taking the knee would continue into this season. Further, the same racists that would boo players taking the knee, would also likely boo any message put out over a tannoy. I'm confident that Carrow Road will rise to the occasion with overwhelming support when the players drop to the knee, and that will be a very pretty sight indeed.

I thought it would be obvious that I meant the ugliness comes from the booing, not the actual process of taking the knee. Its a bit like stirring the pot - it provokes an ugly response and that is not condusive to a good atmosphere at games just before kick off. There are - imo - better ways of doing it. 

I remember Brian Clough standing up to bad behavior at Nottingham Forest - spelling it out that certain behaviour was not acceptable at that football club - and it worked.  Players taking the knee is not working (imo) it is just giving bigots the opportunity to voice their racism. Reminders over the tannoy would at least make it clear racism is not acceptable and then people can have no complaints if they are hauled out during a match for it. Giving them the opportunity to show dissent before a match is just like stirring a hornets nest - why do it when there are other ways that might be more effective.   

[horsefly 4,310]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Giving them the opportunity to show dissent before a match is just like stirring a hornets nest - why do it when there are other ways that might be more effective.   

And that's the crux of the difference between us, I see taking the knee as a beautiful opportunity for the crowd to get behind all our players irrespective of colour and show solidarity with their cause of racial equality. You see it as providing an opportunity for racists to vent their ugly hate. Nothing could be more effective at combatting racism than seeing the overwhelming majority of the CR crowd having the opportunity to get fully behind the players actions with a huge round of applause and cheering. That would truly show any racist in the ground that WE the fans, just like the players, don't want racists anywhere near CR. A tannoy announcement gets nowhere close to such a demonstration. We have had many years of such announcements about repect, you may not have noticed.

[GenerationA47 758]

8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Players taking the knee is not working (imo) it is just giving bigots the opportunity to voice their racism.

Darn Rosa Parks, sitting where she liked on that bus, wilfully causing ugly scenes! And those young kids going to Mansfield High School, provoking mobs of adults to spit on them and scream abuse. What did they expect?! 

Someone should have just made an announcement in the segregated buses & schools mentioning that racism was terribly awful. 
 

But seriously… you don’t think that someone who loves to boo their own footballers before a game wouldn’t also boo the club’s tannoy message & for the same reasons?

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

1 hour ago, Greavsy said:

So are we taking a knee or standing up......

 

 

The moment I had finished typing it I thought to myself that somebody was going to say that. 😉 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Personally I have no issue with supporting a player or players, that make a gesture to show they are unhappy at the racial abuse they get. The people who complain or boo and say there is no place for politics in football, are probably the same people that abuse those that refuse to wear a poppy on their shirts. I choose to wear a poppy by the way...

Those very same people will argue they don't like being told what to do but sit down at the request of the club at every match.

Those that think millionaire footballers are pushing a Marxist agenda or a BLM defund the police policy are clearly very political or a bit confused about politics in general. It's 10 secs for god sake...

First stage in confronting racism is by identifying racists.

[Badger 2,412]

17 minutes ago, GenerationA47 said:

But seriously… you don’t think that someone who loves to boo their own footballers before a game wouldn’t also boo the club’s tannoy message & for the same reasons?

👍 Exactly

[lake district canary 4,544]

16 minutes ago, GenerationA47 said:

Darn Rosa Parks, sitting where she liked on that bus, wilfully causing ugly scenes! And those young kids going to Mansfield High School, provoking mobs of adults to spit on them and scream abuse. What did they expect?! 

Someone should have just made an announcement in the segregated buses & schools mentioning that racism was terribly awful.

The problem back in the day was that very few people in authority cared about the situation of ethnic minorities to be there to make announcements.  Nowadays it is clear that authorities do want to get rid of it and that is only right.  If authorities, businesses and institutions like sports clubs make it crystal clear regularly and openly that racism is not allowed on their premises, the message might get through enough to reduce it and hopefully stop it altogether.  It was not that long ago that any form overt racism was so frowned upon that instances of it actually went right down,  but largely through brexit and the times we live in, the genie has started coming back out of the bottle and racists feel as if they have a right to air their unpleasantness - and that has to stop. 

In an ideal world the vast majority that support the taking the knee should make themselves more vocal to drown out the boos - but such is the timid nature of a lot of people that they don't do it - or maybe they are not that bothered that racists are being heard??  I think the responsibilty lies with all of us - the decent people and also the club too, who could maybe do more.  The taking of the knee started out as a very powerful symbol, but it has turned into something a lot less effective as a symbol and is proving to be counter productive. 

I think clubs could do more. I think the government could do more (some hope there...) but we all could do a bit more too. It will be interesetung to see what happens at CR on Saturday.  Cheering or at least clapping over the top of the boos might help.

[Uncle Fred 526]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Utter nonsense! Your comparison is ridiculous. 

You started a thread of telling people how to think and behave. Personally I am completely ambivalent to the taking the knee thing, it doesn’t bother me. I respect those that wish to do it equally I respect the views of those that see it as inappropriate at a game of football

I believe in liberal democracy where people can peacefully protest and express their views its the cornerstone of any democracy 

you start with I am right and no on else is allowed to have a contrary view, it’s the definition of a extremist attitude 

[lake district canary 4,544]

45 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And that's the crux of the difference between us, I see taking the knee as a beautiful opportunity for the crowd to get behind all our players irrespective of colour and show solidarity with their cause of racial equality. You see it as providing an opportunity for racists to vent their ugly hate. Nothing could be more effective at combatting racism than seeing the overwhelming majority of the CR crowd having the opportunity to get fully behind the players actions with a huge round of applause and cheering. That would truly show any racist in the ground that WE the fans, just like the players, don't want racists anywhere near CR. A tannoy announcement gets nowhere close to such a demonstration. We have had many years of such announcements about repect, you may not have noticed.

I've just mentioned this in a post, but do you really think the crowd will respond to booing with enough noise to make any difference?  we'll have to wait and see on that one!

As for the respect announcements, yes, I've heard them, but this is a specific issue which needs to be pushed harder. I always took the taking the knee to be a direct reference to the murder by the police officer in the USA of an individual and that it was symbolic of racist abuse that takes place anywhere across the world, but unless ordinary people do as you say and drown out the low life that try and abuse that symbol, then it is a waste of time.  Footballers taking the knee is one thing, but it has to lead to something else, otherwise it becomes another empty gesture - we'll see what happens on Saturday and whether the decent fans will make the effort to show that taking the knee means something.

[horsefly 4,310]

4 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

You started a thread of telling people how to think and behave. Personally I am completely ambivalent to the taking the knee thing, it doesn’t bother me. I respect those that wish to do it equally I respect the views of those that see it as inappropriate at a game of football

I believe in liberal democracy where people can peacefully protest and express their views its the cornerstone of any democracy 

you start with I am right and no on else is allowed to have a contrary view, it’s the definition of a extremist attitude 

My exact words were:

"I hope every fan will support the players in taking the knee on saturday. If, for whatever reason, you find the act objectionable I hope you will at least remain respectfully silent and not bring shame to the club by booing. "

Expression of a hope is NOT telling people how to think and behave, it is what it says on the tin, a hope that people will behave in certain respectful ways. Are you really so into "cancel" culture that you want to stop me expressing what I hope will happen. Dear oh dear! That's about as far from liberal democracy as one could get. For free speech to be in any sense meaningful, it is a sine qua non that all participants in a debate must be given equal respect. Racism by it's very definiton fails to observe that requirement which is precisely why it can not be tolerated in a liberal democracy.

There's only one extremist in this dialogue and it's not me.

[horsefly 4,310]

9 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I've just mentioned this in a post, but do you really think the crowd will respond to booing with enough noise to make any difference?  we'll have to wait and see on that one!

As for the respect announcements, yes, I've heard them, but this is a specific issue which needs to be pushed harder. I always took the taking the knee to be a direct reference to the murder by the police officer in the USA of an individual and that it was symbolic of racist abuse that takes place anywhere across the world, but unless ordinary people do as you say and drown out the low life that try and abuse that symbol, then it is a waste of time.  Footballers taking the knee is one thing, but it has to lead to something else, otherwise it becomes another empty gesture - we'll see what happens on Saturday and whether the decent fans will make the effort to show that taking the knee means something.

Re the first point, absolutely I expect any booing to be completely overwhelmed by applause and cheering (did you watch the Euros?)

Re taking the knee, this has a history well before the dreadful murder of George Floyd. Most consider it to have started with NFL player Colin Kaepernick on September 1, 2016 taking the knee as a protest against racial inequality. Its place as an action adopted by sportsmen/women calling for racial equality is well established. 

Re the claim it's potentially just an empty gesture, well all the discussion and subsequent actions since the protest began suggests that claim is blown out of the water.

[Uncle Fred 526]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

My exact words were:

"I hope every fan will support the players in taking the knee on saturday. If, for whatever reason, you find the act objectionable I hope you will at least remain respectfully silent and not bring shame to the club by booing. "

Expression of a hope is NOT telling people how to think and behave, it is what it says on the tin, a hope that people will behave in certain respectful ways. Are you really so into "cancel" culture that you want to stop me expressing what I hope will happen. Dear oh dear! That's about as far from liberal democracy as one could get. For free speech to be in any sense meaningful, it is a sine qua non that all participants in a debate must be given equal respect. Racism by it's very definiton fails to observe that requirement which is precisely why it can not be tolerated in a liberal democracy.

There's only one extremist in this dialogue and it's not me.

You aren’t the sharpest tool in the box are you 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[horsefly 4,310]

1 minute ago, Uncle Fred said:

You aren’t the sharpest tool in the box are you 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

Hahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahaha!

I caught you out blatantly lying about what I said and that's your pathetic response. Is that really all you've got  you old duffer? Perhaps you would like to expand on the concept of Liberal Democracy, I would look forward to that.

[Uncle Fred 526]

16 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Hahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahaha!

I caught you out blatantly lying about what I said and that's your pathetic response. Is that really all you've got  you old duffer? Perhaps you would like to expand on the concept of Liberal Democracy, I would look forward to that.

The concept of freedom of speech just wafts over your head, you don’t get it, I ain’t going to spend my evening trying to educate the uneducated

have a lovely woke evening 

[horsefly 4,310]

1 minute ago, Uncle Fred said:

The concept of freedom of speech just wafts over your head, you don’t get it, I ain’t going to spend my evening trying to educate the uneducated

have a lovely woke evening 

You haven't a clue do you! Get nursey to make your drink extra milky before she tucks you up tonight, must be your bed time.

[Taylor324 36]

As a non-white person, I see taking the knee for what it is - a political statement 

A divisive political statement at that

I find it quite incredulous that some people think it's actually achieving some form of racial harmony or racial enlightenment 

Sadly fighting racism has taken a backward step since taking the knee became a fashionable, yet divisive statement which clearly follows a dubious political ideology  

 

 

[Canaries north 151]

I have friends who are black Asian and white who support BLM and friends who are black Asian and white who are against BLM. It's very polarising. The way one of my friends summed it up was BLM was all about victim culture. He is a child of the windrush generation and has made a fantastic life and career for himself and never wants to be seen as a victim. He looks at the taking of the knee as a BLM gesture even if it started way before, it's been taken over. All the pundits at the start said it was for BLM, then when some of the stories came out it was for the BLM movement (non political) now they have changed again to anti descrimination. You can see why people do associate it with BLM. I am in a mixed race relationship and my partner and I have suffered no abuse in a football ground home or away but have on the street on a night out. You will never get rid of racism just like you will never cure our world of any of its ills. I do not like getting into this subject as feelings are so strong on either side but just wanted to say all people with more than 2 brain cells are anti racism but not everyone who is anti taking the knee is a racist. If I took a poll of my friends taking the knee or not would be a 50 50 split. It does make me feel a lot of footballers probably do it just so they don't get the bad publicity and that is never a good place to be. I don't care what the footballers do personally but I know people who are bothered by it who are definitely not racist. 

[ScouseSte 5]

Most of our lot are left wing, some quite extreme left. Some would say I'm extreme left, but I'm not. Anyway that's beside the point.

Our lot see booing it as a right wing thing to do, and it's against 'our rules' to be right wing. That's probably besides the point, too.

I thinks what I'm trying to say is that I've never had a sensible discussion with somebody who has something against it. And I don't understand why some do have something against it.

It's something I just don't get.

Anyway, it's your forum and I'm just a guest. And on Saturday I'll be a guest in your city and at your ground so if any of you do want to boo your own players for something that I'm not understanding properly, then who am I to judge?

But if you would boo your own player for taking the knee, would you mind explaining the reason? I'm not intending to get on a moral high horse, or get into a political debate. It's just something I'm trying to get my head around.

 

 

 

[Fuzzar 1,703]

7 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I have friends who are black Asian and white who support BLM and friends who are black Asian and white who are against BLM. It's very polarising. The way one of my friends summed it up was BLM was all about victim culture. He is a child of the windrush generation and has made a fantastic life and career for himself and never wants to be seen as a victim. He looks at the taking of the knee as a BLM gesture even if it started way before, it's been taken over. All the pundits at the start said it was for BLM, then when some of the stories came out it was for the BLM movement (non political) now they have changed again to anti descrimination. You can see why people do associate it with BLM. I am in a mixed race relationship and my partner and I have suffered no abuse in a football ground home or away but have on the street on a night out. You will never get rid of racism just like you will never cure our world of any of its ills. I do not like getting into this subject as feelings are so strong on either side but just wanted to say all people with more than 2 brain cells are anti racism but not everyone who is anti taking the knee is a racist. If I took a poll of my friends taking the knee or not would be a 50 50 split. It does make me feel a lot of footballers probably do it just so they don't get the bad publicity and that is never a good place to be. I don't care what the footballers do personally but I know people who are bothered by it who are definitely not racist. 

Are they striped? 

[Ward 3 372]

16 hours ago, horsefly said:

I hope every fan will support the players in taking the knee on saturday. If, for whatever reason, you find the act objectionable I hope you will at least remain respectfully silent and not bring shame to the club by booing. 

Well said!! 

[Herman 9,820]

8 minutes ago, Fuzzar said:

Are they striped? 

Half and half.

 

[horsefly 4,310]

8 hours ago, Taylor324 said:

As a non-white person, I see taking the knee for what it is - a political statement 

A divisive political statement at that

I find it quite incredulous that some people think it's actually achieving some form of racial harmony or racial enlightenment 

Sadly fighting racism has taken a backward step since taking the knee became a fashionable, yet divisive statement which clearly follows a dubious political ideology  

 

 

If you believe that taking the knee in the cause of racial equality is a political statement, then fine, by all means call taking the knee a "political statement". However, to call it a "political statement" doesn't for one minute alter the fact that it is a simple statement protesting the right of all players to be treated equally irrespective of the colour of their skin. That is a very basic human right that applies in every human context. If your claim that it is divisive is true then it can only be the case that it divides those who believe in racial equality from those who don't, ie. the racists from non-racists. Frankly, it is about time that the racists among football fans are divided from the rest of us that abhor their vile and hateful behaviour. The Euros certainly showed that taking the knee worked brilliantly in not only uniting the team, but also the vast majority of England fans behind the cause of anti-racism.

You do not fight racism by appeasing the sensibilities of racists, taking the knee makes a very clear statement that they will not be appeased. The idea that the cause of fighting racism has "taken a backward step" since players have been taking the knee is in complete defiance of the evidence. Never has the debate been more in the public eye. 

Your final claim that taking the knee "clearly follows a dubious political ideology" is simply nonsense. Firstly, it was not an action invented by BLM, nor does it have Marxist roots. It was a simple symbolic public act introduced by the sportsman Colin Kaepernick on September 1, 2016 in protest against racial inequality. Secondly, football players have made it very clear time and again that their act is nothing more and nothing less than  an act supporting racial equality. Any further connection to "dubious" political causes is entirely in your own head, and is an invention by racists seeking to undermine the power of the act to bring about change. I'm afraid anyone who believes these wealthy young men are really engaged in an attempt to overthrow democracy in order to establish a Marxist dictatorship is truly living in an alternate reality.

 

[horsefly 4,310]

8 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I have friends who are black Asian and white who support BLM and friends who are black Asian and white who are against BLM. It's very polarising. The way one of my friends summed it up was BLM was all about victim culture. He is a child of the windrush generation and has made a fantastic life and career for himself and never wants to be seen as a victim. He looks at the taking of the knee as a BLM gesture even if it started way before, it's been taken over. All the pundits at the start said it was for BLM, then when some of the stories came out it was for the BLM movement (non political) now they have changed again to anti descrimination. You can see why people do associate it with BLM. I am in a mixed race relationship and my partner and I have suffered no abuse in a football ground home or away but have on the street on a night out. You will never get rid of racism just like you will never cure our world of any of its ills. I do not like getting into this subject as feelings are so strong on either side but just wanted to say all people with more than 2 brain cells are anti racism but not everyone who is anti taking the knee is a racist. If I took a poll of my friends taking the knee or not would be a 50 50 split. It does make me feel a lot of footballers probably do it just so they don't get the bad publicity and that is never a good place to be. I don't care what the footballers do personally but I know people who are bothered by it who are definitely not racist. 

Sadly, right from the start you make the false connection between taking the knee and BLM. Not only is this false historically and politically, but the players couldn't have been more clear that their act has NO connection to any further political objectives other than support for the simple right of all players to be treated equally irrespective of the colour of their skin. The message really is that simple, and it behoves everyone to ask the question why those who want to obfuscate that message continue to link the players' actions to Marxist revolutionary views they quite clearly don't hold or wish to promote.

May I recommend Michael Holding's excellent discussion of the matter in his book "Why We kneel, How We Rise" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Kneel-How-Rise/dp/B08VNK9JG1/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=3810844879&dchild=1&hvadid=80882856017385&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=41510&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-80882861617834%3Aloc-188&keywords=michael+holding+book&qid=1628835407&sr=8-1

Edited August 13, 2021 by horsefly