***Not official *** January transfer window thread

[Alex Moss 2,165]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

Tackling is fine but the whole 'art' of being a defender is positioning and reading the game so you don't have to make tackles. 

For me, the cons of having Sorenson at left back outweigh the pros. Not a knock on him, he's done a stellar job in an unfamiliar position, but if we want to go up in makes sense to upgrade our options in that position.

Yep, totally hear you, KC. I have a feeling, like all positions, they will be looked at more attentively in the summer when we know what league we’re in. Would rather sign better quality then than being sign players now that may be good at champs level but not what we need for next season should we be promoted.

[king canary 7,607]

1 minute ago, Alex Moss said:

Yep, totally hear you, KC. I have a feeling, like all positions, they will be looked at more attentively in the summer when we know what league we’re in. Would rather sign better quality then than being sign players now that may be good at champs level but not what we need for next season should we be promoted.

The Phillip Heise trap 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,720]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

The Phillip Heise trap 

Still can't bealive he's been on our books for two years and has not yet made a single apperence. Anybody know what went wrong?

[king canary 7,607]

1 minute ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Still can't bealive he's been on our books for two years and has not yet made a single apperence. Anybody know what went wrong?

I think he came in with Lewis in great form, never got a shot in the Championship and by that point was clearly not up to it at Premier League level. Just a bit of a tough situation to come into and didn't do enough in training/preseason to convince Farke he was worth sticking with. 

This is why I think we're best to stick to loans this January if possible- we're unlikely to sign anyone who is already top flight level.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

3 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Still can't bealive he's been on our books for two years and has not yet made a single apperence. Anybody know what went wrong?

Scouting error... that can't win them all.   He never seemed good enough!  

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

29 minutes ago, king canary said:

Tackling is fine but the whole 'art' of being a defender is positioning and reading the game so you don't have to make tackles. 

For me, the cons of having Sorenson at left back outweigh the pros. Not a knock on him, he's done a stellar job in an unfamiliar position, but if we want to go up in makes sense to upgrade our options in that position.

I dunno - it just seems to me that sometimes people can't actually see what's going on in front of their very eyes. Have you not noticed the large number of important defensive headers that Sorensen has won for us this season? Something that never used to happen with Jamal Lewis at left back (in spite of his many other impressive attributes). 

[sonyc 5,519]

30 minutes ago, king canary said:

If we go up, the central midfield situation will hinge somewhat on if we can get Skipp back. If we can that makes a huge difference to our plans.

 

Will love it if we get Skipp next year. He would be the first name on my team sheet. He is exactly the quality player we need. I've been so impressed with him. We haven't had such a tenacious and quick central midfielder for 2/3 years, -with an emphasis on the word quick.

[ncfcstar 292]

Just now, sonyc said:

Will love it if we get Skipp next year. He would be the first name on my team sheet. He is exactly the quality player we need. I've been so impressed with him. We haven't had such a tenacious and quick central midfielder for 2/3 years, -with an emphasis on the word quick.

Agreed, he was exactly the sort of player we were crying out for in the 2018/19 Championship winning season, and then in the PL season (I'm guessing we thought Amadou would be that player).

[king canary 7,607]

Just now, Thirsty Lizard said:

I dunno - it just seems to me that sometimes people can't actually see what's going on in front of their very eyes. Have you not noticed the large number of important defensive headers that Sorensen has won for us this season? Something that never used to happen with Jamal Lewis at left back (in spite of his many other impressive attributes). 

I've noticed them, I just don't feel the prime job of a left back is winning headers, especially in our team.

For me the more noteable stats are what happens going forward, especially in comparison to what Aarons offers on the opposite flank/what Xavi offered pre injury.

Key passes per game (rank in the squad)

• Aarons 1.3 (5th)
• Xavi 2.4 (2nd)
• Sorenson 0.6 (15th)

Crosses per game (rank in squad

• Aarons 0.7 (4th)
• Xavi 3 (1st)
• Sorenson 0.1 (14th) 

Also if you look at stats for how many times players get dribbled past a game...

• Aarons 0.4 (13th)
• Xavi 0.6 (7th)
• Sorenson 1.1 (3rd)

So what you've got (statistically) is a player who, yes, wins a lot of headers and tackles (3rd most tackles per game, 5th most headers) but also offers very little going forward and is vulnerable to players running at him. 

To be those stats suggest an ideal player for central defence. 

 

[curious yellow 184]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I've noticed them, I just don't feel the prime job of a left back is winning headers, especially in our team.

For me the more noteable stats are what happens going forward, especially in comparison to what Aarons offers on the opposite flank/what Xavi offered pre injury.

Key passes per game (rank in the squad)

• Aarons 1.3 (5th)
• Xavi 2.4 (2nd)
• Sorenson 0.6 (15th)

Crosses per game (rank in squad

• Aarons 0.7 (4th)
• Xavi 3 (1st)
• Sorenson 0.1 (14th) 

Also if you look at stats for how many times players get dribbled past a game...

• Aarons 0.4 (13th)
• Xavi 0.6 (7th)
• Sorenson 1.1 (3rd)

So what you've got (statistically) is a player who, yes, wins a lot of headers and tackles (3rd most tackles per game, 5th most headers) but also offers very little going forward and is vulnerable to players running at him. 

To be those stats suggest an ideal player for central defence. 

 

You haven't quoted goals scored or shots on target. To me, Sorensen seems very positive going forward. 

It is important for us to have a defensive player in this position, particularly as Aarons tends to venture too far forward on occasions and his heading ability can let us down, as it did at the end of the Barnsley game. 

It's a good balance at the moment, Left back is a difficult position. For me, Adam Drury has got to be our best ever in this position, mainly because of his defensive ability. 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

49 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I definitely think we'll need to strengthen in all areas, even if we do manage to keep hold of Max, Todd and Emi. I think the six players I mentioned in central midfield are sufficient to get us promoted, and then we can look to strengthen in the summer. I think McLean and Rupp will be good enough as squad players, and Sorensen in his preferred position will be good enough. Vrancic I don't think has the legs for it and will be released in the summer, I'd happily take Tettey on for another year if he wanted to, and Skipp we would need to replace if we couldn't buy him. So basically, at an absolute minimum I think we'd need McLean, Rupp, Sorensen, Tettey, Skipp (or suitable replacement) and a replacement for Vrancic. Sorensen would in effect be the 'Tettey upgrade', so Tettey would be a backup player as he is at the moment.

How can you say Sorensen will be good enough?     You've never seen him play central midfield let alone play against a Premier League opponent / team.  We've no idea if he can receive and keep the ball under pressure, what his anticipation is like in the central positions, his passing quality from there under a much more intense press, his energy etc....  Last season our defence had no cover out of possession and no one to pass too in possession.... none of the CDM options could find enough space and weren't confident enough on the ball for us to pass through the press consistently....   McLean, Tettey, Vrancic, Trybull, Leitner, Amadou, all had a go, were all awful and in the end we had McLean and Tettey as the only two we could barely trust during the 11 game losing streak.   They are not EPL back up players.    .... and we can't gamble that Skipp will come back.... we certainly couldn't afford to buy him.   We need to sort this position out and this month is an opportunity to start to do something about it. 

If I'm Max or Emi and we go up with that as our back up midfield... not a chance I am risking another season in a relegation fight when there is the chance to fight for a Premier League and Champions League.    Further, wonder if Daniel will be reluctant to do it all again (risk his reputation) without significant reinforcements to make us competitive.  Lets be sensible, sentiment only extends so far, he's going to get offers!  

[ged in the onion bag 855]

21 minutes ago, king canary said:

I've noticed them, I just don't feel the prime job of a left back is winning headers, especially in our team.

For me the more noteable stats are what happens going forward, especially in comparison to what Aarons offers on the opposite flank/what Xavi offered pre injury.

Key passes per game (rank in the squad)

• Aarons 1.3 (5th)
• Xavi 2.4 (2nd)
• Sorenson 0.6 (15th)

Crosses per game (rank in squad

• Aarons 0.7 (4th)
• Xavi 3 (1st)
• Sorenson 0.1 (14th) 

Also if you look at stats for how many times players get dribbled past a game...

• Aarons 0.4 (13th)
• Xavi 0.6 (7th)
• Sorenson 1.1 (3rd)

So what you've got (statistically) is a player who, yes, wins a lot of headers and tackles (3rd most tackles per game, 5th most headers) but also offers very little going forward and is vulnerable to players running at him. 

To be those stats suggest an ideal player for central defence. 

 

Interesting stats.... bear in mind it seems opponents have identified our left as the weakness so Jakob may get worked down that side...  Whats the stats for tackles won / interceptions?

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

29 minutes ago, king canary said:

I've noticed them, I just don't feel the prime job of a left back is winning headers, especially in our team.

 

So the fiendish opposition decide to put in a cross from our right to the far post - do we want...........

a) a left back who either wins the header or does enough to to stop the attacker getting in a decent header

b) a left back who doesn't bother challenging for it and when pressed about it by Farke loftily declares that the prime job of a left back isn't winning headers?

[king canary 7,607]

3 minutes ago, curious yellow said:

You haven't quoted goals scored or shots on target. To me, Sorensen seems very positive going forward. 

It is important for us to have a defensive player in this position, particularly as Aarons tends to venture too far forward on occasions and his heading ability can let us down, as it did at the end of the Barnsley game. 

It's a good balance at the moment, Left back is a difficult position. For me, Adam Drury has got to be our best ever in this position, mainly because of his defensive ability. 

I didn't quote them because I don't think they are hugely relevant- he's got one goal, which is more than Xavi and the same as Max, I know that much. If he was very positive going forward I'd expect to see much higher key pass stats for instance. 

I totally disagree about balance- for me, having him there makes the team much more unbalanced. We know with the way we play and how players like Cantwell and Buendia work that our midfield will play narrow, come inside and generally look to play within the width of the 18 yard box. In order to maximise this, you want fullbacks who can push on, draw defenders wider and create a bit more space. It was obvious v Watford & QPR that those teams were happy to play narrow down the left as Sorenson just didn't offer a threat going into that space in the left hand channel, making it harder for the midfielders to find space to play in. They knew if the ball got played to him that he's coming inside and looking to play a pass every time.

I agree a bit of defensive solidity is nice but the way our team play I think what he can't do going forward limits us quite a bit.

 

[repman 635]

23 minutes ago, king canary said:

I've noticed them, I just don't feel the prime job of a left back is winning headers, especially in our team.

For me the more noteable stats are what happens going forward, especially in comparison to what Aarons offers on the opposite flank/what Xavi offered pre injury.

Key passes per game (rank in the squad)

• Aarons 1.3 (5th)
• Xavi 2.4 (2nd)
• Sorenson 0.6 (15th)

Crosses per game (rank in squad

• Aarons 0.7 (4th)
• Xavi 3 (1st)
• Sorenson 0.1 (14th) 

Also if you look at stats for how many times players get dribbled past a game...

• Aarons 0.4 (13th)
• Xavi 0.6 (7th)
• Sorenson 1.1 (3rd)

So what you've got (statistically) is a player who, yes, wins a lot of headers and tackles (3rd most tackles per game, 5th most headers) but also offers very little going forward and is vulnerable to players running at him. 

To be those stats suggest an ideal player for central defence. 

 

While I agree that Sorensen is certainly not the answer at left back, I think those stats make Quintilla look better than he was. His crossing, while high in volume, never really found anyone and is unlikely to do so unless Hugill is playing. I also suspect the key passes stat there is down to his crosses into the box, as I cannot recall him ever playing any sort of incisive through pass. With talk of a left back coming in possibly permanently, I wonder if the club feel they have found a possible upgrade on Quintilla, while also remaining high on McCallum's progression. Leading to a situation where by playing Quintilla now, we end up activating the option to sign him, only to then find him out on the far fringes the next season.

[king canary 7,607]

2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So the fiendish opposition decide to put in a cross from our right to the far post - do we want...........

a) a left back who either wins the header or does enough to to stop the attacker getting in a decent header

b) a left back who doesn't bother challenging for it and when pressed about it by Farke loftily declares that the prime job of a left back isn't winning headers?

It isn't an either/or situation though is it? 

Aarons isn't winning loads of headers at right back, should we drop him? Or do crosses only come from the right in this situation?

[king canary 7,607]

6 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Interesting stats.... bear in mind it seems opponents have identified our left as the weakness so Jakob may get worked down that side...  Whats the stats for tackles won / interceptions?

He's third in the team for both of those. With interceptions its pretty close between him and Aarons (Sorenson 1.1 pg/Aarons 1pg). Tackles he's way ahead of anyone other defender which I think lends some credence to the idea teams are specifically looking to target him (and he's holding up pretty well against it). Rupp and Buendia make the most tackles per game though.

[king canary 7,607]

6 minutes ago, repman said:

While I agree that Sorensen is certainly not the answer at left back, I think those stats make Quintilla look better than he was. His crossing, while high in volume, never really found anyone and is unlikely to do so unless Hugill is playing. I also suspect the key passes stat there is down to his crosses into the box, as I cannot recall him ever playing any sort of incisive through pass. With talk of a left back coming in possibly permanently, I wonder if the club feel they have found a possible upgrade on Quintilla, while also remaining high on McCallum's progression. Leading to a situation where by playing Quintilla now, we end up activating the option to sign him, only to then find him out on the far fringes the next season.

Yeah I agree about the crossing- although it was nice to have someone actually try a cross occasionally when he was in the team! I think Aarons is probably the better comparison (and maybe even Lewis from two years back if I have the time to dig those out).

[repman 635]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I agree about the crossing- although it was nice to have someone actually try a cross occasionally when he was in the team! I think Aarons is probably the better comparison (and maybe even Lewis from two years back if I have the time to dig those out).

To defend Sorensen even more he is obviously playing on his weaker side too, and by the time he has cut back onto his right foot, defenders are more likely to be set ready for a cross. Crossing is really a hard thing to put into stats, the difference between Quintilla's and Aarons' crossing style wouldn't show up, but based off memory Quintilla would cross from deeper positions, putting balls onto the heads. Max tends to cross low, often getting in behind the defence before putting it across. Max feels more of a stylistic fit in the side to me, and I wonder if that is why we apparently want to bring in a left back to really push Quintilla, not just to sit on the bench for the rest of the season.

[king canary 7,607]

Just now, repman said:

To defend Sorensen even more he is obviously playing on his weaker side too, and by the time he has cut back onto his right foot, defenders are more likely to be set ready for a cross. Crossing is really a hard thing to put into stats, the difference between Quintilla's and Aarons' crossing style wouldn't show up, but based off memory Quintilla would cross from deeper positions, putting balls onto the heads. Max tends to cross low, often getting in behind the defence before putting it across. Max feels more of a stylistic fit in the side to me, and I wonder if that is why we apparently want to bring in a left back to really push Quintilla, not just to sit on the bench for the rest of the season.

To be clear I'm not attacking Sorenson- I think he's done a fine job and I'm excited to see him play in midfield or central defence at some point. I just think adding a left back is a sensible idea as I think his limitations in an unfamiliar role (like having to go back onto his right foot as you mentioned) are a hindrance to our attacking play.

[kirku 1,332]

Is Reiss Nelson any good?

I think we've been more defensively sound with Sorensen at LB than when Xavi was there.

[curious yellow 184]

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

It isn't an either/or situation though is it? 

Aarons isn't winning loads of headers at right back, should we drop him? Or do crosses only come from the right in this situation?

This is my point about balance, we can afford Aarons to get forward if we have some help for the central defenders. The evidence is the results we have had since Sorensen has been in the team. 

Plus he can get forward into some good goal scoring positions. This is more effective than crossing to a centre forward who isn't there. 

I would prefer Quintilla as a left wing back, but left back is a defensive position and should be judged on defensive abilities. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

25 minutes ago, king canary said:

It isn't an either/or situation though is it? 

Aarons isn't winning loads of headers at right back, should we drop him? Or do crosses only come from the right in this situation?

That's a reductus absurdum and is a bit beneath you to be honest Kingy. Crosses of course come in from both sides - I was just saying that it's nice to have a left back there who is good in the air (especially as it was an obvious area of weakness in Jamal's game) and that in my eyes that is very much a tick in the credit side of the ledger where Sorensen is concerned. 

[king canary 7,607]

1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

That's a reductus absurdum and is a bit beneath you to be honest Kingy. Crosses of course come in from both sides - I was just saying that it's nice to have a left back there who is good in the air (especially as it was an obvious area of weakness in Jamal's game) and that in my eyes that is very much a tick in the credit side of the ledger where Sorensen is concerned. 

To be honest I'd describe the post I was replying to in the same terms- I never suggested him winning headers was bad or something a leftback shouldn't be doing, just that I don't think it is a key deciding factor for a left back in a Daniel Farke team. You presented it as if the binary choices were Sorenson, or a left back just not trying to win a header. 

In an ideal world you'd have a left back comfortable doing both the defensive stuff Sorenson does and the attacking stuff Lewis does. Those sort of players don't often play in the Championship though. In my opinon the balance and attacking options offered by a Lewis type is more important than the aerial prowess provided by Sorenson for our team. If we were a more defensive team, or a team that played the %'s a bit more I'd probably say the opposite. 

[king canary 7,607]

7 minutes ago, curious yellow said:

This is my point about balance, we can afford Aarons to get forward if we have some help for the central defenders. The evidence is the results we have had since Sorensen has been in the team. 

Plus he can get forward into some good goal scoring positions. This is more effective than crossing to a centre forward who isn't there. 

I would prefer Quintilla as a left wing back, but left back is a defensive position and should be judged on defensive abilities. 

It isn't like the results were bad with Xavi in there though? 

I totally disagree on your last point though, certainly in a team that play the way we do. Fullback has evolved so much in the modern game and the way we play our fullbacks basically are wingbacks. The modern fullback is as much an attacker as a defender and will be judged as such- there is a reason someone like Aarons is linked with the top clubs and isn't his ability in the tackle or in the air...

 

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Still can't bealive he's been on our books for two years and has not yet made a single apperence. Anybody know what went wrong?

 

I think he was really only meant to be a backup? Plus, I could be totally misremembering but I believe I read somewhere a while back that we actually more or less made up what we paid for him in loan fees? He was not really a "miss" overall I would say given cost and expectations.

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

I'll admit I'm confused as to why exactly we need another LB considering Quintilla is almost back fit, Sorensen is more than good enough, Mumba will be back soon, Rupp could play there, Steipi could play there, etc. But all of Bailey, Davitt, and Southwell have indicated we are looking for one so ...

 

Perhaps we've got a line on a really good deal/prospect and want to sneak it in?

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

Other thought ... the long-rumored McLean to Rangers deal happens this window, pushing Sorensen to CM and leaving Quintilla the only true and trusted LB? 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

The Phillip Heise trap 

Ha ha, exactly that!

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I've noticed them, I just don't feel the prime job of a left back is winning headers, especially in our team.

For me the more noteable stats are what happens going forward, especially in comparison to what Aarons offers on the opposite flank/what Xavi offered pre injury.

Key passes per game (rank in the squad)

• Aarons 1.3 (5th)
• Xavi 2.4 (2nd)
• Sorenson 0.6 (15th)

Crosses per game (rank in squad

• Aarons 0.7 (4th)
• Xavi 3 (1st)
• Sorenson 0.1 (14th) 

Also if you look at stats for how many times players get dribbled past a game...

• Aarons 0.4 (13th)
• Xavi 0.6 (7th)
• Sorenson 1.1 (3rd)

So what you've got (statistically) is a player who, yes, wins a lot of headers and tackles (3rd most tackles per game, 5th most headers) but also offers very little going forward and is vulnerable to players running at him. 

To be those stats suggest an ideal player for central defence. 

 

You missed the most important one, availability!