Proper Championship football

[lake district canary 4,830]

Two teams having a right good go at each other today, not the type of game where the opposition just sit back and defend while we are allowed the ball, which become a bit of a dull watch.  I'm all for having a Norwich posession fest where the opposition don't get a kick, but it usually goes along with the other team just going into the match to sit back and defend, with a corresponding lack of entertainment overall.  Blackburn gave it a good go and came close to scoring more goals......but equally we could have had four or five goals, if Cantwell and Stiepermann had been a bit sharper in front of goal.  A real good entertaining and competitive match, with the right result for us - and a good advert for championship football. 

We are giving the opposition teams a dilemna - if you attack us, we will have more space to play and the class to get results, if you defend, we will still (usually) find a way to win. Good news for us, that we can find a way to win whatever the style the opposition choose to play in.  Credit to Blackburn today for their approach, but then credit more to us for withstanding the onslaught and having enough - yet again - to find a a way to win.

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by lake district canary

[The Real Buh 3,765]

The championship (and efl ) is showing up the premier league week after week 

it’s just a much better product!

Edited December 12, 2020 by The Real Buh

[seanthecanary 168]

Blackburn deserve a lot of credit. There will not be many teams who have more possession than us in matches. It was also no surprise that at least 2 goals would be needed to beat them with their scoring record. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by seanthecanary

[Van wink 2,994]

Great game, Blackburn the best side I have seen against us this season, great resilience from City to get the win, well worth the £10

[Il Pirata 249]

47 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

Blackburn deserve a lot of credit. There will not be many teams who have more possession than us in matches. It was also no surprise that at least 2 goals would be needed to beat them with their scoring record. 

Agreed.. but I also think without a Vrancic or Rupp next to Skipp our possession game is weakened. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

Some of the passing choices made by Hanley and Zimmermann were equally poor and both resorted - on multiple occasions - to simply hoofing the ball randomly. It is entirely out of synch with the prevailing methodology and the coaching intentions. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

Parma

Edited December 12, 2020 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[cambridgeshire canary 7,798]

1 minute ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

Parma

 

[Surfer 1,547]

Parma's right. The number of times we hoofed the ball upfield only for it to come straight back at us again was incredible. I'm just amazed that we didn't concede a goal from all the crosses into our box, which I guess says something positive about Hanley, Sorenson and Zimmerman.... and we should have scored at least one more, Pukki, Sorenson, Cantwell and Stiepermann all had chances to put it away. 

[hogesar 10,763]

21 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

Some of the passing choices made by Hanley and Zimmermann were equally poor and both resorted - on multiple occasions - to simply hoofing the ball randomly. It is entirely out of synch with the prevailing methodology and the coaching intentions. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

Parma

I love Mark Rivers but for someone who's played the game his commentary is bizarre. Constantly criticising us trying to play out from the back...

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

30 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I love Mark Rivers but for someone who's played the game his commentary is bizarre. Constantly criticising us trying to play out from the back...

Chris Goreham must learn to not simply follow the interpretation of whoever sits next to him like a fanboy acolyte. Today was a real low point for him.

The words and the pictures often bore very little resemblance to each other. One must be able to disassociate prejudice and pre-conceived views colouring the empirical action.

Mark Rivers simply cannot have been paying any attention to any of the clear and defined methodology Farke has installed. It has been extremely successful by any measure and the blueprint is so clear that judgment as to whether it is working effectively or adhered to correctly should be easy for even the most superficial of followers. 

Parma 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Jim Smith 2,610]

The first 15 mins of the second half were appalling. Sooner or later our slow starts to the second half will cost us. Whatever he does/says at half time he needs to do something different. 

[lake district canary 4,830]

48 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

Some of the passing choices made by Hanley and Zimmermann were equally poor and both resorted - on multiple occasions - to simply hoofing the ball randomly. It is entirely out of synch with the prevailing methodology and the coaching intentions. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

Parma

I understand that from a coaching point of view things were not how we would want to be, with giving away possession so much, but sometimes you have to credit the opposition for putting us under so much pressure to force us into rushing clearances and giving the ball away cheaply. For me the Luton away performance was worse and the Coventry one not much better. I thought Blackburn had a superb attitude and a weaker side would have crumbled under their onslaught, but despite the errors and rushed clearances, we still could have and maybe should have scored four or five goals.

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

13 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I understand that from a coaching point of view things were not how we would want to be, with giving away possession so much, but sometimes you have to credit the opposition for putting us under so much pressure to force us into rushing clearances and giving the ball away cheaply. For me the Luton away performance was worse and the Coventry one not much better. I thought Blackburn had a superb attitude and a weaker side would have crumbled under their onslaught, but despite the errors and rushed clearances, we still could have and maybe should have scored four or five goals.

 

Spend some time at Colney this week.

Observe the triple substitution (in the end double, though Buendia was due to be removed). 

Watch the patterns, observe the randomness of events and decisions throughout the game. 

Not ‘proper’ anything. Low rent and fortunate. 

You don’t have to guess if you can read the book. 

Parma

nb: I am of course delighted with the result. Like I say, a coach’s dream. 

[sgncfc 1,330]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

Some of the passing choices made by Hanley and Zimmermann were equally poor and both resorted - on multiple occasions - to simply hoofing the ball randomly. It is entirely out of synch with the prevailing methodology and the coaching intentions. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

Parma

Nonsense. A hugely entertaining game and one where Norwich were forced to play as they did because Blackburn dominated midfield, marked Buendia out of the game (mostly) and pressed high. Our movement at times in the first half was close to two seasons ago. When Blackburn stepped it up after the interval we were almost overwhelmed but Maclean and Cantwell took back the midfield. Great match, with good tactical adjustments.

[lake district canary 4,830]

1 minute ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Spend some time at Colney this week.

Observe the triple substitution (in the end double, though Buendia was due to be removed). 

Watch the patterns, observe the randomness of events and decisions throughout the game. 

Not ‘proper’ anything. Low rent and fortunate. 

You don’t have to guess if you can read the book. 

Parma

nb: I am of course delighted with the result. Like I say, a coach’s dream. 

I think my use of the word "proper" was to do with Blackburn's approach to the game, not our resorting to hoof ball at times. I completely understand the way we want to play, so my compliments were more for Blackburn and their going for it, rather than sitting back like other teams seem to against us.

I know our ideal game would have been to play retain possession better and play through them, but overall, I would far rather see two teams going for it than the sometimes sterile looking stalemate that exists for long parts of many of our games - which is often due to opposition tactics rather than our own.

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

Some of the passing choices made by Hanley and Zimmermann were equally poor and both resorted - on multiple occasions - to simply hoofing the ball randomly. It is entirely out of synch with the prevailing methodology and the coaching intentions. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

Parma

You didn’t see the Preston, Wycombe or Luton matches then Parma? 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Midlands Yellow

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

25 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

You didn’t see the Preston, Wycombe or Luton matches then Parma? 

I saw them all. 

Intention and execution. 

Others were tired, disjointed or error-strewn, though they nevertheless displayed clear methodology and adherence to instructions (just performed badly).

Today’s 43% possession, lack of adherence to methodology and panicky mental approach, causing randomness (rather than carrying out instructions poorly) is the antithesis of the system. The very point is that it should stand up under pressure and that players should be so drilled in it that its fundamentals are second nature. 

Doing something poorly, making errors, losing, making mistakes are all fine. 

Playing in a fashion that reveals that that drilling is less deep and comprehensive than expected will be a concern. 

The poor shape and weak angles provided in the CDM position today underlined how important  unity and cohesion of repeated inter-connected movements is to the positional play system.

 Perhaps tiredness played a part, though Blackburn did little more than many teams have done against us: harry high, try to shut the angles, try to exploit the space behind the high full backs in the W, force the weakest passers (centre backs) to make more difficult verticals, exploit Tettey’s weak passing. 

Farke will be a lot less sensitive to such observations than fans who only ever judge a game on the result. 

Parma

nb: our positional play methodology and dominant possession game is mostly a defensive tool let us not forget. We pull teams out of shape where we can and exploit created  overloads to encourage them to make a gross  strategic error, though mostly we keep the ball away from them to retain a clear control over proceedings. Scoring from an exploited situation is a bonus and a more likely outcome later in the game as focus wanders and opposition defensive disciplines drift. 
They don’t score when we have it. 

Blackburn ‘had it’ much more today and could easily have won. It was not at all the intention.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[hogesar 10,763]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

The first 15 mins of the second half were appalling. Sooner or later our slow starts to the second half will cost us. Whatever he does/says at half time he needs to do something different. 

We've had some good performances out from half time this season too. Which other games were we really poor as soon as we came ou for the second half? Blackburn gave it a good go second half as a quality home team would expect to. We won't have it all our own way and we still threw bodies in and defended well.

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

Your not on this many points having played most teams in the top 6 at this stage by luck.

Fortuitous point at Brentford maybe but Norwich have the points they deserve. They should be even stronger with the quality players coming back from injury and consolidate their position forthwith.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

@lake district canary what I will say in your defence is that Mowbray is wily and prepared to do what many are not to combat the oppression and suffocating Norwich methodology.

He well understands ‘weapons’ that we have talked about repeatedly. He has a weapon in Elliott.

Where Mowbray is cute is that he recognised all his hope was in disrupting our method via something precise and OCD repetitive. It helps that his side is naturally unbalanced (strong) attack vs (weak) defence. Thus his decision to more or less abandon all pattern of play and simply instruct his most accurate flat, fast passer (Johnson) to hit his best player (Elliott) whose only instruction was to be ready to receive. 
johnson literally never looked at any other option, he got, controlled, hit. Elliott then did what he does naturally and ran at attacking space, cutting in directly to goal. Good pragmatic management (in Mowbray’s position).

Further conveniently this was our strategic weakest* area - with a rookie 3/4 left forward and a non-left back*. (Plus quite possibly a good ongoing tactic for them full stop).

Mowbray was thus brave enough to forget any other disruption such a tactic would cause what HE had been drilling for weeks and months and stick to it. 

Parma

*I think Sorensen has been excellent full stop. The perception he is a weakness is false and it is even further credit to him that - despite being targeted in multiple games - he has stood up exceptionally well.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
Thanks Nuff 🤗

[Nuff Said 5,962]

Mowbray not Pulis, Parma?

[Foxy2600 376]

Sheffield Weds game ? It was a shambles.....but we still won. Your point Parma?

I agree with LDC. That game was proper.....and dare I say it. All the better for no VAR so yes a better product..

[ron obvious 1,711]

So, Parma, does what you're saying boil down to labelling Farke a poor coach?

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

4 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

So, Parma, does what you're saying boil down to labelling Farke a poor coach?

No Ron. I think Farke is a fantastic coach.

I think under pressure the weaknesses of certain players - and their instinctive tendencies - show up. 

Tettey positional sense, movement and technical distribution was very poor. Hanley and (to a lesser degree) Zimmerman rushed decisions - sensing fear a half second too soon - others had off games, Martin’s defensive positioning was sometimes callow, Buendia repeatedly gave the ball away inexplicably in poor areas and at poor tactical moments, Skipp looks better and more comfortable as the central pivot. McGovern isn’t a very good distributor (though his game has warmed up over recent weeks).

Further drilling required, though most of those mentioned wouldn’t actually be first choice players in an ideal Farke XI. 

In a positional play methodology it is more important to have players who naturally play the way you require, than ‘good’ players.

It is quite possible - and correct in my view - to regularly choose a 7/10 player over an 8/10 player if they fit the overall playing model better.

Under pressure players revert to what they instinctively are.

Parma

[Hardhouse44 289]

13 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Norwich’s poorest performance of the season. The result defines the response, though Farke will be very unhappy with multiple aspects.

It is a coach’s dream to play poorly and win. 

The openness was borne of poor retention of the ball, with Tettey in particular guilty of some poor positioning ensuring that our passing angles and retention were well below par. McGovern didn’t help with some slow and poorly chosen distribution. 

Some of the passing choices made by Hanley and Zimmermann were equally poor and both resorted - on multiple occasions - to simply hoofing the ball randomly. It is entirely out of synch with the prevailing methodology and the coaching intentions. 

An excellent result - combined with some of the least informed and inaccurate commentary I have heard - masked a very sloppy performance.

It was ‘entertaining’ in the sense that lots and lots happened because so little genuine control was exerted. 

Pukki’s finishing masked a poor performance. One can of course argue that that is what (Championship) Champions are made of. 

I couldn’t disagree more. I actually felt it was one of our most accomplished performances. Apart from a sloppy piece of play which lead to their goal. Which by the way still meant the guy had loads to do and which he took brilliantly I thought we showed steel, determination and guts. I thought it was a great performance. After a string of teams sitting back and asking us to break them down we came up against an attacking team ready to fight for a win. They are I believe the leagues top scores. We kept then to 1 goal at their home and out scored them. 
 

yes we were under the cosh for the first 15 to 20 mins of the second half but good attacking teams at home who come out at 1 nil down for the second half are always going to have a purple patch in the game. We withstood it we to a degree regrouped after their goal, retook the lead and then maintained it. I would say it was an outstanding performance.

[ron obvious 1,711]

Thanks for the above Parma. I just wasn't quite sure which point you were arguing - poor individual performances or poor coaching. I must say I noted the same deficiencies as you but wasn't sure where you ascribed the cause.  I thought it was one of Alex's worst performances yesterday, got caught in possession a lot & didn't always control the space around him in the way he can do. Bad day at the office.

It was an odd game. I had the feeling we almost expected them to score & didn't care; there just seemed to be a collective air of something bordering on arrogance, that we could always just go & score another goal, it's what we do. Such hubris is of course very dangerous & will lead to our undoing if we're not careful!

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

@lake district canary what I will say in your defence is that Mowbray is wily and prepared to do what many are not to combat the oppression and suffocating Norwich methodology.

He well understands ‘weapons’ that we have talked about repeatedly. He has a weapon in Elliott.

Where Mowbray is cute is that he recognised all his hope was in disrupting our method via something precise and OCD repetitive. It helps that his side is naturally unbalanced (strong) attack vs (weak) defence. Thus his decision to more or less abandon all pattern of play and simply instruct his most accurate flat, fast passer (Johnson) to hit his best player (Elliott) whose only instruction was to be ready to receive. 
johnson literally never looked at any other option, he got, controlled, hit. Elliott then did what he does naturally and ran at attacking space, cutting in directly to goal. Good pragmatic management (in Mowbray’s position).

Further conveniently this was our strategic weakest* area - with a rookie 3/4 left forward and a non-left back*. (Plus quite possibly a good ongoing tactic for them full stop).

Mowbray was thus brave enough to forget any other disruption such a tactic would cause what HE had been drilling for weeks and months and stick to it. 

Parma

*I think Sorensen has been excellent full stop. The perception he is a weakness is false and it is even further credit to him that - despite being targeted in multiple games - he has stood up exceptionally well.

Blackburn haven’t beat any of the top 6 this season. Maybe Tony isn’t so wily after all. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Blackburn haven’t beat any of the top 6 this season. Maybe Tony isn’t so wily after all. 

You are actually right @Midlands Yellow I initially confused my Pulis’ and my Mowbrays.

Pulis is wily, Mowbray more 2D.

Nevertheless the 2D of Mowbray..even more extremely deployed in this game, caused us structural issues in its repetitive application.

Parma

Edited December 13, 2020 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[sgncfc 1,330]

Everybody is running to agree with "coach" Parma, who is often spot on but on this occasion completely wrong and hiding behind the dreaded manual. This was nowhere remotely close to our worst performance of the season. True that there was very little execution of what we are good at, but that was because of the opposition - just like last season, our players are not quite good enough to execute the game plan when the opposition don't play the way we want them to. Our response to that situation was, though, excellent.

I'm sure we all noted Tettey was much less effective than usual, but that was because Blackburn played around him and Skipp and used pace and fast crossfield balls to cut through, which they did many times. Cantwell is normally the one tasked, and who has the ability, with closing that down, and when he came on they stopped. It helped that Mowbray changed his midfield and then tried to run through us, making Tettey and Skipp more effective in the last 20 minutes.

Farke was changing it before we scored the second.

So we learned from the Luton game, when they did much the same as Blackburn did but with the added impact of 2,000 noisy fans in an evening game.  When we face an intensity and a high press, we have to adjust. We didn't do that much last season, and we also didn't do it against Luton or Rotherham (the two other teams who have executed that strategy well against us). This time we did adjust and although it did feel and look a lot like headless chickens, in the end we could (and should) have won this game much more comfortably. 

Points to note : Armstrong barely got a touch; their goalkeeper made several more goal saving interventions than McGovern had to; we had the clearer goalscoring chances.

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by sgncfc
error

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

To further clarify @ron obvious..Tettey is generally extremely good positionally in defensive scenarios, though the ying and yang of that is that he finds it hard to be fluid, offer angles, leave station, identify and co-operate on overloads when we are in possession.

The game is both aspects and it is quite a compromise if he is in the key CDM position. However if we are well on top it probably doesn’t matter, if we are not on top his other skills are needed and key....😊...

...such are the compromises and conflicts of a coach....

It can be observed that the higher the level you rise to, the less compromises you are required to make as the quality of players improves  (dramatically so with the extreme finance on offer in the Premier League).

Games like Saturday’s do not, can not and must not occur at the top level. Such random openness is severely punished by all at that level.

Parma 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy