Better start than the other relegated clubs..

[seanthecanary 168]

I think it's been it very promising start considering how last season ended.  The first 10 games were always going to be about rebuilding the very fragile confidence of the players and that we've now not lost in 5, winning 4 of them after such a poor run of results while being at the top end of the league is brilliant.  I do still have concerns, mainly defensively.  We look very brittle at the back at times but it's not helped by the fact we can't seem to field the same back four for more than 3 games in a row.  The big worry though is set pieces, we look very vulnerable still.  We also concede some very cheap free kicks and corners which I would hope we cut out seeing as we look so nervous defending them.  All in all, we seem to be building confidence and the forward play is definitely beginning to click again.

[Il Pirata 249]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Stieps understanding of Pukki's movement means that even though he's not as good a player as Cantwell he's probably more effective than anyone else in that 10 position generally. I don't think Cantwell is overrated at all but of course, he'll now have to fight for a place back after today.

And that's a huge point. As a team dynamic, Steipermann and Vrancic bring more than Cantwell does. Cantwell is technically gifted, but does not positively affect the game often enough. This can be masked by his 'pleasing on the eye' style. If you were picking a 5 aside team, Cantwell would be one of the first names on the team sheet. 

[Beefy is a legend 224]

6 hours ago, seanthecanary said:

I think it's been it very promising start considering how last season ended.  The first 10 games were always going to be about rebuilding the very fragile confidence of the players and that we've now not lost in 5, winning 4 of them after such a poor run of results while being at the top end of the league is brilliant.  I do still have concerns, mainly defensively.  We look very brittle at the back at times but it's not helped by the fact we can't seem to field the same back four for more than 3 games in a row.  The big worry though is set pieces, we look very vulnerable still.  We also concede some very cheap free kicks and corners which I would hope we cut out seeing as we look so nervous defending them.  All in all, we seem to be building confidence and the forward play is definitely beginning to click again.

In the end we are still a relatively small team. Set pieces are always going be a little bit of an achilles heel for us. Max, Pukki, Emi, Skipp, Placheta, Cantwell, Onel aren't going to be winning headers. 

But in reality it's 9 games and 8 goals conceded - that isn't bad at all. If someone said in the first 9 games, we'd have only conceded more than one goal once, I would suggest we'd be fairly happy with that. 

 

 

[Beefy is a legend 224]

As far as Cantwell goes, he's become a fine player, he improved a hell of a lot going into the Premier League season. His performances at that level were in stages very good indeed.

He has a bit to prove that he can do it consistently and be a force at Championship level. 

I have no doubt that Cantwell, Hugill, Mario all have a big role to play this season. They will all have periods where they get a run of starting games.

[seanthecanary 168]

6 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

In the end we are still a relatively small team. Set pieces are always going be a little bit of an achilles heel for us. Max, Pukki, Emi, Skipp, Placheta, Cantwell, Onel aren't going to be winning headers. 

But in reality it's 9 games and 8 goals conceded - that isn't bad at all. If someone said in the first 9 games, we'd have only conceded more than one goal once, I would suggest we'd be fairly happy with that. 

 

 

I agree, it's not doom and gloom but a clean sheet here and there wouldn't go a miss. You can't always be having to score 2 or goals to win matches. Like I said though, it doesn't help we can't ever have a settled back four. 

[Pugin 601]

14 hours ago, sgncfc said:

So if you're an opposition coach how do you set up against us now? Invite us on and we kill you. Defend in depth and we score in the last few minutes when you're knackered. Press us and we play around you. 

This is why you are one of my very favourite posters in here. Unlike many, you realise that the opposition is trying to do to us exactly what we are trying to do to them. When fans realise that, it's like a rite of transition. Some never make the leap.

Alongside this truism, I would add 'never judge a side or manager on a single game'. But of course, we all do.

[OnDaBall 137]

There's always a risk that a relegated team can struggle to get out of the habit of losing, even if on paper they are perceived to have superior players.

Maybe some of our not to convincing performances can be attributed to that, but still we've managed to pick up good points. If we can grind out wins and draws when not playing at our best, that can only be a good sign.

[First Wazzock 904]

This is shaping up to be a re-run of two seasons ago - slowish start, then it all starts to gel.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

21 hours ago, hogesar said:

If things stay as they are.

As I've said the past few weeks, the criticism for fluke games like Derby have been ridiculously over the top and with no easy games in the championship the 'why didn't we score 5 against Wycombe' bunch look a bit silly when they then go and get a point against Watford.

Been creative all season, sat in the top 6 places for chances created all season. Long may it continue. Pleased to see Farke stick to his guns and the abuse he got for the Emi and Cantwell decisions is looking more stupid by the day.

We look every bit like a team that can get promoted this season, with the caveat we can't afford many injuries in our defence.

People should know better than complain about us not battering teams like Wycombe etc.

Really hate the ‘our clubs bigger than your club’ thing, but the only way I can describe it is that our game against Wycombe *was* one of their cup finals this season. Gareth Ainsworth said as much prior to the game, he also said the same for Watford who ended up drawing with them.

And so for that very reason it’s the norm to see the ‘smaller’ clubs team put up a gutsy performance and get a closer result than what is expected. We see it happen in the Premier League regularly - our games at home to Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal last season being perfect examples amongst possibly more.

Just wanted to touch on that, and I also agree with everything else you’ve said throughout the thread, Hoggy. Very measured as usual and, quite simply, the truth 👍

Edited November 1, 2020 by Alex Moss

[Hissing Sid 154]

23 hours ago, K Lo said:

You could say the same of Norwich against against Brentford.

Norwich's For column not looking too bad. Their Against, as usual, not quite as competitive !

8 against, in 9 games. 6th best in the League. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,798]

If Dowell and Hernandez come back fit in January, I wouldn't see Farke putting up too much resistence or protest if an acceptable bid came on for Cantwell...

[Jersey Canary 143]

On 31/10/2020 at 17:09, hogesar said:

Stieps understanding of Pukki's movement means that even though he's not as good a player as Cantwell he's probably more effective than anyone else in that 10 position generally. I don't think Cantwell is overrated at all but of course, he'll now have to fight for a place back after today.

I’ve been saying this even last season. Marco’s link up play is very underestimated. His slaloming runs often take the pressure off our back four and drags the team up the pitch. He’s still not match fit I wouldn’t have thought as he’s hardly played in the last 12 months. He’s only going to get better. Ditto Emi. 
 

It’s not a coincidence that when Stiepermann plays Pukki is more effective. Pukki’s effectiveness is very key on the success of our season.

[seanthecanary 168]

12 minutes ago, Jersey Canary said:

I’ve been saying this even last season. Marco’s link up play is very underestimated. His slaloming runs often take the pressure off our back four and drags the team up the pitch. He’s still not match fit I wouldn’t have thought as he’s hardly played in the last 12 months. He’s only going to get better. Ditto Emi. 
 

It’s not a coincidence that when Stiepermann plays Pukki is more effective. Pukki’s effectiveness is very key on the success of our season.

The other thing about Stiepermann that often gets overlooked is that at times he can provide an option for an "out" ball when our defence is being pressed.  I'm not saying we just hoof it to him under pressure but last time in the champs we were able to break a press now and then by going direct to him with the right pass when needed.  It's a shame he didn't really step up to the PL because while he does have good technical attributes, he adds more physicality to a team that is fairly small.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

Maybe, just maybe, Todd was rested on Saturday as part of squad rotation whilst the games come thick and fast, and will replace Placheta on Tuesday...

[chicken 2,640]

On 31/10/2020 at 16:56, Il Pirata said:

Hopefully. But not shown a lot for a long time now, and no coincidence our form is improving without him. I like the lad, but he's so overrated. Vrancic and Steipermann are far more effective - they actually create and score. Buendia is a different level, and Placheta and Hernandez offer blistering pace we need. 

Apart from a man of the match performance you mean? The fact that the team did better with him in it than it had with just Buendia... He had a poor game and Placheta given the nod for the next game. And despite being one of our best performers in the premier league.

You're still ready to write him off... 

Some fans?! 🙄

[chicken 2,640]

Actually, just for arguments sake, some stats.


Started five games this season and not been part of a losing side.

"Our form is improving without him" going on the above is false. And confirmed by:


Lost in the EFL Cup with a much depleted squad. Won on his return, then the draw with Preston before his "loss of focus". Then followed losses to Bournemouth and Derby before a win at Rotherham. I think two wins and a draw from 5 league fixtures, or 6 fixtures in all competitions is hardly what you could call 'form'.

His return to the side coincided with a run of games where our form lifted. Winning two and drawing one of the four  three (edit: can't count clearly!) games he started. That's much better form with him in the side than not in it.

We have a good squad now. It's not like last season. If someone has a poor game, or we are playing against a side we feel more outright pace is needed, then things will be switched around. It's why we have seen the No.10 role occupied by Cantwell, Stiepermann and Pukki this season. We have also seen Cantwell, Hernandez and Placheta on the left of midfield and Dowell and Buendia on the right.

So yeah, basically no statistical evidence to suggest that Cantwell hasn't played a part in the form of the side. He hasn't lost yet when started. That's not to say he should start every weak. That is just to throw that idea upon sharp and jagged rocks.

Edited November 2, 2020 by chicken
typo

[Il Pirata 249]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

Actually, just for arguments sake, some stats.


Started five games this season and not been part of a losing side.

"Our form is improving without him" going on the above is false. And confirmed by:


Lost in the EFL Cup with a much depleted squad. Won on his return, then the draw with Preston before his "loss of focus". Then followed losses to Bournemouth and Derby before a win at Rotherham. I think two wins and a draw from 5 league fixtures, or 6 fixtures in all competitions is hardly what you could call 'form'.

His return to the side coincided with a run of games where our form lifted. Winning two and drawing one of the four  three (edit: can't count clearly!) games he started. That's much better form with him in the side than not in it.

We have a good squad now. It's not like last season. If someone has a poor game, or we are playing against a side we feel more outright pace is needed, then things will be switched around. It's why we have seen the No.10 role occupied by Cantwell, Stiepermann and Pukki this season. We have also seen Cantwell, Hernandez and Placheta on the left of midfield and Dowell and Buendia on the right.

So yeah, basically no statistical evidence to suggest that Cantwell hasn't played a part in the form of the side. He hasn't lost yet when started. That's not to say he should start every weak. That is just to throw that idea upon sharp and jagged rocks.

He played 90 minutes against Birmingham and Wycombe, yet without the introduction of Vrancic we'd probably not won either game. MOM? I watched a player afforded lots of time and space to receive the ball, but dreadfully wasteful with it. How many chances did he miss against Brum?

Yes stats may support your point. But you could also say since he went out of the side (HT at Brentford) we've won 4 incredibly tough points.. Good form if you ask me. 

Look at the impacts of Steipermann and Vrancic in the last few games. Big goals, big assists in big moments. Cantwell doesn't do anywhere near enough of that. Throw stats at me, but he just doesn't. He's no game changer. I'm sure there's stats to prove that..

Watch the game. If Cantwell is pressed, he's very average and creates little. Which typically happens against better sides, as Brentford proved. But he was injured you say.... 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Il Pirata

[Alex Moss 2,165]

9 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

Watch the game. If Cantwell is pressed, he's very average and creates little. Which typically happens against better sides, as Brentford proved. 

Last season, most of Todd’s finest performances were against the better sides. 

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

On 31/10/2020 at 17:57, Il Pirata said:

It was all complete speculation. 

It was not complete speculation. Farke said Cantwell and Buendia were not focused enough in trainng and linked it specifically to the transfer speculation:

“I don’t blame them, I’m not angry with them, I know we are all human beings but I hope this bloody transfer window will close soon. I think some players are capable to deal with it, Max Aarons is a role model in how to deal with it but some players are affected. Of course you would wish that they put this to the side and know their responsibility but obviously some players can’t do this, I do not blame them, they are human beings and this is perhaps natural.''

[Mr Angry 1,570]

Watford have either sold, released or loaned out 5 players who were regulars last season and have not replaced them with players of a similar quality. They have also sold 2 players who did well on loan in Spain last season who would probably have been in the first team this season but they demanded transfers and have also been sold.

My friends are now very worried-although it could be a similar over-reaction to what happens on here when results go against us.

[Il Pirata 249]

1 hour ago, Alex Moss said:

Last season, most of Todd’s finest performances were against the better sides. 

His reputation seems defined by those goals against Chelsea and Man City at the start of last season. I never saw Todd positively effect large parts of any game last season, and given his defensive liabilities, he simply has to do more in an attacking sense to justify his selection. Yes most players were poor last season, but there were times players showed real class. Buendia against Wolves, Vrancic against Spurs, a couple of dominating, effective, performances.

 A decent squad player, and one I expect to get a fair amount of game time. But I stand by my opinion (for now), Cantwell is hugely overrated. If he's as good as a lot of people make out, he should rip this division to shreds. 10 goals, 10 assists, minimum. Happy to bet he doesn't get close to either. 

[chicken 2,640]

2 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

He played 90 minutes against Birmingham and Wycombe, yet without the introduction of Vrancic we'd probably not won either game. MOM? I watched a player afforded lots of time and space to receive the ball, but dreadfully wasteful with it. How many chances did he miss against Brum?

Yes stats may support your point. But you could also say since he went out of the side (HT at Brentford) we've won 4 incredibly tough points.. Good form if you ask me. 

Look at the impacts of Steipermann and Vrancic in the last few games. Big goals, big assists in big moments. Cantwell doesn't do anywhere near enough of that. Throw stats at me, but he just doesn't. He's no game changer. I'm sure there's stats to prove that..

Watch the game. If Cantwell is pressed, he's very average and creates little. Which typically happens against better sides, as Brentford proved. But he was injured you say.... 

Thought so. Change the goal posts and then throw more into it.

Form is not built over one and a half games. It is incredibly disingenuous to say otherwise. Going on that basis we drew and lost two games without him in the side. Fact is the 'form' argument just doesn't exist.

Now you are saying although he played in three games, that he didn't play well enough to say he had anything to do with the form of the side? Yet in some games he did more than Buendia.

Equally, there were other players that were involved then not, additionally, it is worth noting that Stiepermann came in to play the No.10 role. The game before, it was Pukki who played that role behind Hugill. So Stiepermann did not replace Cantwell. Other players that have changed are the likes of McClean, Hernandez, Placheta who have been in the side, then injured and stayed out or come back in. Same as Zimmermann at the start of the season.

Which all just go to show your understanding of 'form' in this discussion as a point to beat Cantwell over the head with is null and void.

You don't rate him, fine. But don't make up rubbish.

[Midlands Yellow 4,057]

10 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

His reputation seems defined by those goals against Chelsea and Man City at the start of last season. I never saw Todd positively effect large parts of any game last season, and given his defensive liabilities, he simply has to do more in an attacking sense to justify his selection. Yes most players were poor last season, but there were times players showed real class. Buendia against Wolves, Vrancic against Spurs, a couple of dominating, effective, performances.

 A decent squad player, and one I expect to get a fair amount of game time. But I stand by my opinion (for now), Cantwell is hugely overrated. If he's as good as a lot of people make out, he should rip this division to shreds. 10 goals, 10 assists, minimum. Happy to bet he doesn't get close to either. 

He is a good player but seldom great. The reason Todd is held with such great regard by some is because he’s a Norfolk boy. If you criticise the Murphy’s ( still to this day) or Cantwell on here you’ll always be in trouble with a certain few. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

6 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

His reputation seems defined by those goals against Chelsea and Man City at the start of last season. I never saw Todd positively effect large parts of any game last season, and given his defensive liabilities, he simply has to do more in an attacking sense to justify his selection. Yes most players were poor last season, but there were times players showed real class. Buendia against Wolves, Vrancic against Spurs, a couple of dominating, effective, performances.

 A decent squad player, and one I expect to get a fair amount of game time. But I stand by my opinion (for now), Cantwell is hugely overrated. If he's as good as a lot of people make out, he should rip this division to shreds. 10 goals, 10 assists, minimum. Happy to bet he doesn't get close to either. 

I respect your opinion, Pirata, but I don’t think Todd’s sole contribution in those games was as simple as just a goal or assist.

It is no coincidence that fans of other clubs, when spotting say myself wearing some of our apparel in a pub or suchlike, nearly always mention Todd. It used to be Delia, but now it’s Todd. Just way too many people without any agenda either way mention the talent and performance for it not to exist!

As I say, no coincidence, and I guess if I didn’t like say Lionel Messi, then I’m sure I could find fault with him rather than look at his attributes if I really wanted to every single game e.g what did he do in that game? He got a goal and an assist! Yep, BUT he didn’t track back for the 2 goals conceded by Barcelona so that neutralises his individual performance!

[chicken 2,640]

14 minutes ago, Il Pirata said:

His reputation seems defined by those goals against Chelsea and Man City at the start of last season. I never saw Todd positively effect large parts of any game last season, and given his defensive liabilities, he simply has to do more in an attacking sense to justify his selection. Yes most players were poor last season, but there were times players showed real class. Buendia against Wolves, Vrancic against Spurs, a couple of dominating, effective, performances.

 A decent squad player, and one I expect to get a fair amount of game time. But I stand by my opinion (for now), Cantwell is hugely overrated. If he's as good as a lot of people make out, he should rip this division to shreds. 10 goals, 10 assists, minimum. Happy to bet he doesn't get close to either. 

Sorry, but I have seen literally no one saying that Cantwell is a world beater, or that he will easily tear up teams in this division. Frankly, and honestly, we have literally NO players that do that. We have some players who, at their best, can be incredibly tough to play against. A clinical Pukki, a rugged attacker with guile in Stiepermann, the unpredictability and technical ability of Buendia, the pace and positivity of Hernandez and you would have to put Cantwell in there too.

His goals in the premier league weren't flukes, against Man City he was brilliant. We have seen teams double up on him this season already. And we have seen an improvement in results when he has returned and played well. The one game he didn't he was subbed off at half time. A game where Vrancic started in the No.10 and Cantwell wide.

No real argument put forward here. Just an opinion based, one would have to guess, on the "lack of focus", or being one of the people that has never liked him and wants to be proven right despite a great season on promotion and certainly not any worse a season than many others in the side whilst being much younger at 21-22.

 

[chicken 2,640]

16 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

He is a good player but seldom great. The reason Todd is held with such great regard by some is because he’s a Norfolk boy. If you criticise the Murphy’s ( still to this day) or Cantwell on here you’ll always be in trouble with a certain few. 

Sorry, that's just not true.

By and large, the majority of folks say we got incredibly good money for the Murphy's. Next to no one is saying we should have tried to hold on to them. In reality though, both helped Norwich to stay in this division when things were a bit ropey and then their sales helped further. Neither were rubbish players. They maybe haven't yet found their feet since moving on but they did ok when with us.

You just wont see many decent Norfolk folk being disrespectful about players, especially when people are trying to claim that there is this imaginary clamouring crowd who supposedly "overrate" players just so they can argue the opposite.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

27 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

He is a good player but seldom great. The reason Todd is held with such great regard by some is because he’s a Norfolk boy. If you criticise the Murphy’s ( still to this day) or Cantwell on here you’ll always be in trouble with a certain few. 

Is the fact that he’s from Dereham why a Chelsea fan said to me the other day that he’d been keeping an eye on Todd’s progress since he came on as a sub in the cup replay and stood out immediately. Or why the Arsenal supporting landlord asked me on Saturday lunchtime ‘why on earth have you not started Cantwell against a potential promotion rival?’

I get it now why the Chelsea and Arsenal supporters talked about Todd.

It’s because he’s from Dereham.

[Midlands Yellow 4,057]

1 minute ago, Alex Moss said:

Is the fact that he’s from Dereham why a Chelsea fan said to me the other day that he’d been keeping an eye on Todd’s progress since he came on as a sub in the cup replay and stood out immediately. Or why the Arsenal supporting landlord asked me on Saturday lunchtime ‘why on earth have you not started Cantwell against a potential promotion rival?’

I get it now why the Chelsea and Arsenal supporters talked about Todd.

It’s because he’s from Dereham.

So a grand total of 2 people? I never said he’s rubbish I actually said he’s good. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

47 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

So a grand total of 2 people? I never said he’s rubbish I actually said he’s good. 

Eh, didn’t say that at all? And that was just an example, obviously 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

Nothing wrong at all with being proud of our academy producing a talent local to Norwich itself.

[wcorkcanary 4,337]

7 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Eh, didn’t say that at all? And that was just an example, obviously 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

Nothing wrong at all with being proud of our academy producing a talent local to Norwich itself.

Gonna back you up here Alexo, I live in a foreign country ffs where footy is third or even fourth sport. I am well known as a city supporter locally and last season Cantwell was the name on people's lips, Pukki maybe at the start butTodd was the player that seemed to catch the eye of the neutrals as the season wore on. Whether it was his hair, his gloves , or his footy (I suspect the latter) that made them notice him, im not sure. Either way he stood out in a poor season.