Better start than the other relegated clubs..

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Il Pirata said:

Ok Chicken, my stats are the 2018/19 season. 

Vrancic = 10 goals, 7 assists - 36 appearances.

Steipermann = 9 goals, 6 assists - 40 appearances. 

Cantwell = 1 goal, 2 assists - 24 appearances. 

Source, whoscored.com. 

So as we are a championship club again, and considering the last time was only 18 months ago, I'd rather see Vrancic and Steipermann play ahead of Cantwell. 

Personally I think your wrong to suggest you must back up an opinion with stats. There are other dynamics at play with a team performance that are hard to measure. For example, the telepathic understanding Steipermann and Pukki have, or the way Vrancic can turn defensive into attack with one pass. Off the ball positioning, something neither of the three above do that well, but is often perfected by Tettey. How is that 'skill' accurately measured by statistics? Interceptions possibly - but there's more to it, it isn't clearly identifiable but has a huge impact on a teams dynamic. Do you understand what I mean?

For me, we're a better side at this level with Vrancic and Steipermann than Cantwell. And that's considering Cantwell has likely improved, although I've seen nothing so far to suggest he's much better than last time at this level. Early days of course. And fully expect many to disagree. Your going to say that Cantwell plays more on the left, not number 10. Fair enough. But to accomodate Vrancic or Steipermann you need a pacy player. If not Hernandez, then Placheta. And I won't entertain the idea of Cantwell for Buendia, because the players are levels apart.

To use Cantwells stats from 18/19 is disingenuous at best.

That was his first season in English football at senior level.

He then comfortably surpassed those figures at a much higher level, hence the interest in him from other clubs.

If you're talking about the 3 behind the striker then Cantwell plays there ahead of Vrancic every single time, without question.

[chicken 2,604]

47 minutes ago, hogesar said:

To use Cantwells stats from 18/19 is disingenuous at best.

That was his first season in English football at senior level.

He then comfortably surpassed those figures at a much higher level, hence the interest in him from other clubs.

If you're talking about the 3 behind the striker then Cantwell plays there ahead of Vrancic every single time, without question.

Spot on.

You can only go by recent achievements not what happened two years ago. Especially, as pointed out, in 2018, Cantwell was 20, with very little experience of English football. In fact his main experience was the 2nd tier of Dutch football.

At this point I am sick and tired of the goalposts that keep moving. The stats I use are rubbish and cant be trusted. The opinions of pundits, commentators and the media can't be trusted as yours is more reliable... But you still haven't presented anything but your own opinion which isn't particularly well defined. Just this concept of 'game impact' which in your view cannot be quantified or substantiated by statistics. Though after saying how unreliable and crap statistics were, pointing at those I was using, you quite happily produced some from a prior season and suggested they were reliable.

I may as well just admit defeat and go by his 2000-01 season statistics. You're right, not even one appearance, couldn't even pull up his own socks, the lazy little workshy... 

Hogesar and I have provided fair and reasonable counter points with actual evidence to show what our views are based upon. I'm happy that at this point there hasn't been anything worthwhile to counter them and I'm out. 

[Il Pirata 249]

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

To use Cantwells stats from 18/19 is disingenuous at best.

That was his first season in English football at senior level.

He then comfortably surpassed those figures at a much higher level, hence the interest in him from other clubs.

If you're talking about the 3 behind the striker then Cantwell plays there ahead of Vrancic every single time, without question.

Which kind of proves my point, statistics are not the be all or end all and neither do they give an opinion the gold seal of approval. 

[Il Pirata 249]

8 hours ago, chicken said:

Spot on.

You can only go by recent achievements not what happened two years ago. Especially, as pointed out, in 2018, Cantwell was 20, with very little experience of English football. In fact his main experience was the 2nd tier of Dutch football.

At this point I am sick and tired of the goalposts that keep moving. The stats I use are rubbish and cant be trusted. The opinions of pundits, commentators and the media can't be trusted as yours is more reliable... But you still haven't presented anything but your own opinion which isn't particularly well defined. Just this concept of 'game impact' which in your view cannot be quantified or substantiated by statistics. Though after saying how unreliable and crap statistics were, pointing at those I was using, you quite happily produced some from a prior season and suggested they were reliable.

I may as well just admit defeat and go by his 2000-01 season statistics. You're right, not even one appearance, couldn't even pull up his own socks, the lazy little workshy... 

Hogesar and I have provided fair and reasonable counter points with actual evidence to show what our views are based upon. I'm happy that at this point there hasn't been anything worthwhile to counter them and I'm out. 

Chicken, you clearly have issue's dealing with debate.

I never said your stats are rubbish, that's a lie. I never said my opinion is more reliable than pundits, only that some of the national media have embarrassingly little knowledge of Norwich. Another lie. 

I've presented statistics as you wished, but surprise, they're not 'right' or 'reliable' statistics. 

Go on this seasons stats then.. Steipermann and Vrancic have both outperformed Cantwell so far.

Anyway, it's pointless. Your not balanced enough to consider other peoples views. Perhaps the campaign has got in to you. 

[chicken 2,604]

3 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

Chicken, you clearly have issue's dealing with debate.

I never said your stats are rubbish, that's a lie. I never said my opinion is more reliable than pundits, only that some of the national media have embarrassingly little knowledge of Norwich. Another lie. 

I've presented statistics as you wished, but surprise, they're not 'right' or 'reliable' statistics. 

Go on this seasons stats then.. Steipermann and Vrancic have both outperformed Cantwell so far.

Anyway, it's pointless. Your not balanced enough to consider other peoples views. Perhaps the campaign has got in to you. 

Pundits:
"What like Ian Wright, Alan Shearer and co... must be true then. You do realise that most of the time they just analyse a highlight real don't you?"
"Come off it Chicken, there's some appalling punditry out there and you know it!"
"Like you and the majority on here, I've watched Cantwell play more than most national pundits, particularly those two mentioned. Every time we're in the EPL its staggering just how little pundits and commentators know about Norwich."

Strangely though you did also say "Unless its MB, PD, DF or CG, you can't rely on it." I say strangely because they all sung Cantwell's praises last season and MB and PD were often saying that PL teams were looking at him and in the summer had inquired about him.

Stats:
"provided some stats that support them - but they're not conclusive. Stats can just as easily mislead."
Yet you didn't say how or why the stats I used were misleading. You just went back a further season and suggested stats from a season prior were more pertinent than more recent stats.

The problem is, each time you have rebutted other people's opinions, rather than address their points, you have moved the goal posts by moving on to other topics. I know how debate works, I know how discussion works. You will see elsewhere that I am happy to concede points, mistakes or inaccuracies. If I didn't, I wouldn't be at all capable in my job and wouldn't have earned my qualifications.

As you said, stats can be misleading. In open play, I would have Cantwell on the left of midfield, where he has played 90+% of his Norwich City games above Vrancic and Stiepermann. I also don't think, on the basis of his start the other day, that other than direct free kicks, Vrancic offers 'more' than Cantwell in the No.10 role in terms of 'impact' on the game. He offers 'different', but not more. I also wonder if we would be talking about his impact from the bench if other players hadn't won free kicks in suitable positions? And that is coming from someone who likes Vrancic and would like to see him play more games for his passing, but I also have to agree with Farke - you wouldn't pick him above Rupp and Skipp in the two DM/holding roles and without pace he can struggle to impact in the No.10 role. He is out of contract next summer and I'm not sure he will be here beyond that.
 

Edited November 5, 2020 by chicken

[hogesar 9,618]

On 02/11/2020 at 19:42, Il Pirata said:

But as you've already pointed out, Steipermann is more effective. Which is my point. 

Out of interest, on what scale if Cantwell 5 x the player Steipermann is? Keepy uppies? I'd agree with that. 

No, on pretty much every scale. And hes shown that in one performance today.