Quite Ironic

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

Given our relegation and the amount of goals that we have shipped in the last two seasons and the start of this i find it quite ironic that the most sought after players by bigger clubs are 3 of our back 4 for most of this period. , particularly when they have had such a fantastic goal keeper behind them. This raises a number of questions, that are all just about opinions

a] Are these players as good as we and other clubs think

b] If they are as good as we and others think was our defensive coaching poor?

c] Have our general team tactics been such that the back 4 have been left too exposed

d] have we been short of a decent defensive midfielder

I suspect it has been a mixture of b to d and that these players will go on to have very good careers elsewhere, whilst clearly due to their age still being on a learning curve.  If it has been b to d then if nothing changes then we will continue to let in in my opinion an unacceptable amount of goals which in turn puts so much pressure on the forward line to score the volume of goals to win points

[Indy 3,300]

Very much d, Yorkshire, now we have Skipp we starting to look solid. I expect to see a Sorensen as a sub ready to step into the team at CB if needed.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,164]

a) YES

b) NO (our central defence last season was destroyed by the most appalling injury crisis our club has ever seen)

c) YES (in the Premier League - we were good enough to get away with it in the Championship last time)

d) YES (at Premier League level). 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

6 minutes ago, Yorkshire Canary said:

d] have we been short of a decent defensive midfielder

Say it quietly, but Tettey's been our DM most of that time..... *ducks*

[Don’t be Krul 399]

If you look at all the top teams they've got at least one strong central defensive midfielder. Man City have Fernandinho and Rodri, Liverpool likewise with Fabinho, Chelsea with Kante, Leicester with Ndidi. All enforcers who shield a back 4

[Aggy 755]

A) Yes  - individually and in a side that is on the front foot more often than we were in the prem last year, Lewis, Aarons and Godfrey are good players. None are imo excellent defensively. Lewis and Aarons as full backs are probably more likely to be coachable to improve defensively. Godfrey I have doubts about whether he will ever be the best defensively. But at the right club, Godfrey not being the best out and out defender will be outweighed by his ability with the ball.

B) Probably is a factor and ties in with C. I’ve banged on about there being too much space between the lines for months. Yes that’s partly to do with how we set up more generally, but it’s also about drilling the back four and midfielders about when to move up as a unit, when to squeeze, where you should be in relation to other players around you. I feel we aren’t disciplined enough here and that comes from the coaching. And let’s not get started on set pieces. 

C) Yes - see comments on B above. I don’t know whether we try to drill the units as mentioned above and just aren’t very good at it, or if we just don’t do it (enough). We have an offensive mind set. There were games last season where, first half, in the prem against far superior opposition, our centre back would have the ball and our full backs were fifty yards ahead of them, the midfield was thirty yards ahead, the attackers even further. The full backs and wingers were out wide. One pass goes astray and the opposition has a clear run at your centre backs who are left stranded.  
 

D) I think Tettey is more than decent. I think the player next to him - at prem level - has never been good enough. But I think far more of an issue is b and c above.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Aggy

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

14 minutes ago, Indy said:

Very much d, Yorkshire, now we have Skipp we starting to look solid. I expect to see a Sorensen as a sub ready to step into the team at CB if needed.

Skipp was at fault for both the goals conceded against Preston and I remain to be convinced. But I do agree with the view that our defenders last season were way better than the goals against suggested. I think we'd probably still have been relegated with the Liverpool back four. Quite simply we conceded goals because we continually gave the ball away further up the pitch, usually to players that were as talented as ours but were much stronger. In the Championship you get away with it but mistakes are punished in the Premier League. 

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

11 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Say it quietly, but Tettey's been our DM most of that time..... *ducks*

Tettey for me has been a great club servant , he cost peanuts and always had his limitations. The previous time we were in the PL he was often exposed and regarded as not good enough for the top flight and  struggled with his fitness to play a couple of games a week. Why three seasons later when he was into his 30s did anyone think the outcome would be any different and the obvious weakness not plugged. 10/10for effort , 10/10 for character and loyalty, 5/10 for general ability in my opinion. Not so much a problem if he is a back up squad player but if he is the first choice in that position then you really know what is going to happen

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

16 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Say it quietly, but Tettey's been our DM most of that time..... *ducks*

Tettey for me has been a great club servant , he cost peanuts and always had his limitations. The previous time we were in the PL he was often exposed and regarded as not good enough for the top flight and  struggled with his fitness to play a couple of games a week. Why three seasons later when he was into his 30s did anyone think the outcome would be any different and the obvious weakness not plugged. 10/10for effort , 10/10 for character and loyalty, 5/10 for general ability in my opinion. Not so much a problem if he is a back up squad player but if he is the first choice in that position then you really know what is going to happen

[Petriix 2,835]

It's partly tactical, partly coaching and part personnel; but there's been a big slice of 'situation' as well.

Ironically, I actually think our defensive frailties have been caused by our attack. We won the Championship by setting up in a very attacking way: high fullbacks, plenty of midfielders getting forward, lots of direct forward passing. This let to us conceding a bunch of goals where teams turned over possession and countered. We also gave away a lot of free kicks in dangerous areas as a consequence of trying to defend against this type of situation.

In the Premier League we found it much harder to score. Our response was to push even harder in attack, leaving us exposed at the back and even more vulnerable to conceding. The higher levels of discipline and ability in our opponents made it harder for us to create the openings but we also collectively failed when it came to putting our chances away.

Much of it was psychological. Confidence dropped, composure disappeared, discipline went out the window. Patterns emerged where we would have bright spells near the start of games, the opposition would score with their first chance and our heads would drop. The real problem was that, because it appeared to be working initially, we didn't adapt our style so kept making the same mistakes.

An enormous part of it was down to chance. We hit the woodwork an unbelievable number of times, VAR brutalised us, injuries decimated the squad. With a bit better luck we would have had two or three more wins going into lockdown and been able to return with a realistic fighting chance. I can't excuse the abject failure when we returned but can only assume that there was no belief within the squad that survival was possible.

In my opinion, if you want to blame any of the players, the midfield were most at fault. Many of the goals we conceded were where our midfield failed to track the opposition runners. However, Godfrey did seem particularly vulnerable when defending against counter attacks when one on one with an attacker and the ball coming in from a cross or pass from the wide areas.

[Chelm Canary 404]

The quality in midfield has been missing for me and the defense was completely exposed last season. I'm not judging this season so far as its early doors. 

Tettey is our best DM, but are we going to be able to rely on him for much longer? The bloke can't play until he's 50. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Chelm Canary

[seanthecanary 168]

I think, despite people disagreeing with me that some part of our defensive problems last season (not all) was down to what was happening in front of the back four.  The amount of times we gave possession away and left the back four exposed was criminal.

I know people have faulted Godfrey's defensive work but with the greatest of respect to those people, Ancelotti feels differently and I would regard his opinion higher.  We are talking about an Italian manager here, they know their defensive sh*t lets be honest.  He's won the top leagues in England, France, Germany and Italy as a manager and won the Chmapions League twice with Milan and once with Madrid.  Lewis is another player who's ability called into question but Bruce, Klopp and Hodson all made bids for him.  I'm willing to accept the Bruce has been and miss in his career but Klopp is one of the best managers in the world right now and Hodgson is highly respected.  Maybe, just maybe these people know more than we do?

[shefcanary 2,407]

b) all the way - not had a proper defensive coach since Alan Irvine!

[Aggy 755]

1 hour ago, seanthecanary said:

 

I know people have faulted Godfrey's defensive work but with the greatest of respect to those people, Ancelotti feels differently and I would regard his opinion higher.  

So you’re suggesting Everton are signing Godfrey purely for his defensive capabilities and his ability with the play didn’t play any part in their decision?

[seanthecanary 168]

5 minutes ago, Aggy said:

So you’re suggesting Everton are signing Godfrey purely for his defensive capabilities and his ability with the play didn’t play any part in their decision?

Are you suggesting Everton bought a defender for £25 million who they think can't defend?  I mentioned nothing about his ability with the ball because I don't think that's ever been in doubt.  Maybe Ancelotti scouted him on this forum and thinks he's buying the worlds greatest holding midfielder?

Edited October 2, 2020 by seanthecanary

[TIL 1010 4,746]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

b) all the way - not had a proper defensive coach since Alan Irvine!

Have we got a defensive coach ?

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

We were totally outclassed and outmuscled in central midfield last season - that is where the problems lay. Was like men against boys most weeks and it left defence exposed 

[Aggy 755]

3 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

Are you suggesting Everton bought a defender for £25 million who they think can't defend?  I mentioned nothing about his ability with the ball because I don't think that's ever been in doubt.

I don’t think anyone has said he can’t defend at all.
 

What I’m not sure about is how you know Ancelotti feels differently about Godfrey’s defensive capabilities. I imagine Ancelotti likes Godfrey because he’s an alright defender who is very good with the ball. If he was as good defensively as he is with the ball, he’d be a 75 million pound defender playing for Man City.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Aggy

[seanthecanary 168]

1 minute ago, Aggy said:

What I’m not sure about is how you know Ancelotti feels differently about Godfrey’s defensive capabilities. I imagine Ancelotti likes Godfrey because he’s an alright defender who is very good with the ball. If he was as good defensively as he is with the ball, he’d be a 75 million pound defender playing for Man City.

I mean I guess I'm making the assumption that he thinks Godfrey can defend because he said he wanted a CB and a day later a fee was agreed for Godfrey

[birchfest 397]

I think we quite obviously have the potential to improve at the back going off last season, but thats not too suggest that what is required is a completely new back four. We suffered as a result of not having options and competition largely as a result of injury. I do wonder if, with a more experienced CB in front of Krul we might actually look a little more solid.

[Aggy 755]

8 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

I mean I guess I'm making the assumption that he thinks Godfrey can defend because he said he wanted a CB and a day later a fee was agreed for Godfrey

The point is that just because Ancelotti has signed him doesn’t mean that anyone who has “faulted Godfrey’s defensive work” was wrong as you suggested. At times last season he was defensively at fault for goals we conceded. Ancelotti has likely signed him as much (probably quite a lot more) for his ball playing qualities as his defensive ones.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Aggy

[Thirsty Lizard 3,164]

8 minutes ago, Aggy said:

The point is that just because Ancelotti has signed him doesn’t mean that anyone who has “faulted Godfrey’s defensive work” was wrong as you suggested. At times last season he was defensively at fault for goals we conceded. Ancelotti has likely signed him as much (probably quite a lot more) for his ball playing qualities as his defensive ones.

With respect Aggy this is a slightly odd thing to say - EVERY defender is sometimes at fault for goals conceded - the only one who isn't is the human being who never made a mistake. Even Virgil Van-Dijk has made a couple of howlers in recent months. Godfrey is a far better defender than most on here give him credit for (which isn't to say that he's never made a mistake or doesn't still have things to improve upon and learn)

[Aggy 755]

6 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

With respect Aggy this is a slightly odd thing to say - EVERY defender is sometimes at fault for goals conceded - the only one who isn't is the human being who never made a mistake. Even Virgil Van-Dijk has made a couple of howlers in recent months. Godfrey is a far better defender than most on here give him credit for (which isn't to say that he's never made a mistake or doesn't still have things to improve upon and learn)

And that’s fair enough. As said above, I don’t think anyone has said he can’t defend at all. But I don’t think he’s a great defender. He’s not a natural defender - he started his career in midfield and it shows. He’s often half a yard out of position or gets caught out. 

Look at David Luiz. He hasn’t played at some of the world’s biggest clubs because he’s one of the world’s most solid defenders. He’s played at some of the world’s biggest clubs because he’s usually pretty good defensively and his ability with the ball outweighs the defensive errors he will make (usually!).

So I don’t buy the idea that just because Everton/Ancelotti like Godfrey it means he is a top quality “defender” or that those who say he isn’t the best defensively are incorrect.

If Everton wanted an out and out defender, they wouldn’t have gone for Godfrey - I don’t think anyone would argue with that statement would they?

Edit: and personally I think you could extend that to any premier league club - if any premier league club wanted an out and out solid defender, would they go for Godfrey?

Edited October 2, 2020 by Aggy

[seanthecanary 168]

1 minute ago, Aggy said:

And that’s fair enough. As said above, I don’t think anyone has said he can’t defend at all. But I don’t think he’s a great defender. He’s not a natural defender - he started his career in midfield and it shows. He’s often half a yard out of position or gets caught out. 

Look at David Luiz. He hasn’t played at some of the world’s biggest clubs because he’s one of the world’s most solid defenders. He’s played at some of the world’s biggest clubs because he’s usually pretty good defensively and his ability with the ball outweighs the defensive errors he will make (usually!).

So I don’t buy the idea that just because Everton/Ancelotti like Godfrey it means he is a top quality defender or that those who say he isn’t the best defensively are incorrect.

If Everton wanted an out and out defender, they wouldn’t have gone for Godfrey - I don’t think anyone would argue with that statement would they?

Look, I would agree he still has a lot to learn defensively but Ancelotti clearly thinks there is something to work with to begin with.  I think the point you make about him starting as a midfielder is very relevant.  What you had last season with Godfrey was a player playing at the highest level who had previously had half a season of experience in the role at Championship level in a side that had most of the ball.  Not only did he not have huge experience, he was constantly playing with different partners, sometimes from game to game and even played a few games paired with midfielders.  All the time he was being constantly exposed by a midfield that offered little protection.  He was by no means faultless but I also don't think he is a bad defensively as some would say.  He is due some criticism, no doubt about that and I certainly didn't mean he should be immune to any criticism either.  That said, I will forever stand by my belief that our defensive record last season is more complicated than just the back four couldn't defend.

[Aggy 755]

13 minutes ago, seanthecanary said:

Look, I would agree he still has a lot to learn defensively but Ancelotti clearly thinks there is something to work with to begin with.  I think the point you make about him starting as a midfielder is very relevant.  What you had last season with Godfrey was a player playing at the highest level who had previously had half a season of experience in the role at Championship level in a side that had most of the ball.  Not only did he not have huge experience, he was constantly playing with different partners, sometimes from game to game and even played a few games paired with midfielders.  All the time he was being constantly exposed by a midfield that offered little protection.  He was by no means faultless but I also don't think he is a bad defensively as some would say.  He is due some criticism, no doubt about that and I certainly didn't mean he should be immune to any criticism either.  That said, I will forever stand by my belief that our defensive record last season is more complicated than just the back four couldn't defend.

Would agree with all of that and at a top club where they don’t have to defend as much as we had to last year, he’ll probably look a lot better than he was made to look with us.

We don’t know how good he would have been as a midfielder - and that boat has long since sailed. But I do still wonder whether he might have gone on to be a real top top holding midfielder and might only end up at a “second tier” Everton / 6th-10th Prem type club as a defender. I’m not sure you can teach that natural defensive “instinct” and a lack of it will be more exposed in the centre than it will on the flanks - which is why I think Aarons will eventually go on to play for bigger clubs than Godfrey, despite me having equal doubts about Aarons’ defensive abilities.

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Aggy

[Number9 272]

4 hours ago, Yorkshire Canary said:

Given our relegation and the amount of goals that we have shipped in the last two seasons and the start of this i find it quite ironic that the most sought after players by bigger clubs are 3 of our back 4 for most of this period. , particularly when they have had such a fantastic goal keeper behind them. This raises a number of questions, that are all just about opinions

a] Are these players as good as we and other clubs think

b] If they are as good as we and others think was our defensive coaching poor?

c] Have our general team tactics been such that the back 4 have been left too exposed

d] have we been short of a decent defensive midfielder

I suspect it has been a mixture of b to d and that these players will go on to have very good careers elsewhere, whilst clearly due to their age still being on a learning curve.  If it has been b to d then if nothing changes then we will continue to let in in my opinion an unacceptable amount of goals which in turn puts so much pressure on the forward line to score the volume of goals to win points

b & c

 

I'm convinced that many of our players haven't reached their potential because of tactics and coaching errors. 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

2 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Have we got a defensive coach ?

We don't have a specific coach for any position other than goalkeeper. Farke and Riemer played together at Lippstadt; Farke was a forward, Riemer a defender. Whether that means Riemer is responsible for the defensive side of the coaching, or whether they both try to coach with a balance between the two, I don't know. But having played in defence, one would assume Riemer at least has some insight into the intricacies of playing in that position.

[Chelm Canary 404]

This theory about the coaches not being good enough is nothing short of ridiculous. 

Let's just sack all the coaches then and get some new ones because that was the problem all along. 

If you can play football you can play football. The coaching is a part of it but not a huge part. 

Come on. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Chelm Canary

[seanthecanary 168]

1 minute ago, Chelm Canary said:

This theory about the coaches not being good enough is nothing short of ridiculous. 

Let's juat sack all the coaches then and get some new ones because that was the problem all along 😂

If you can play football you can play football. The coaching is a part of it but not a huge part. 

Come on. 

Bill Nicholson, after holding a team meeting about tactics etc asked Jimmy Greaves if he had anything to say.  He responded along the lines of.... you can either play or you can't, talking about it won't change much.

[mannings bandy legs 388]

Better players,better coach ,maybe,just maybe,he may turn out to to be a better CDM than he was thought to be. I for one think he will be.