New Tory Leader

[horsefly 4,301]

2 hours ago, Aggy said:

On the second point, I have no issue with the referendum result being followed through per se. But our system works on the basis that if the party / thing you vote for doesn’t win, you accept it, suck it up and vote for something different next time.  When “next time” came around (ie first general election after brexit referendum), neither main party campaigned on a promise to do what they could to rewind brexit. Had they done so, and won the election on that promise, they would have had a mandate to do exactly that (and which would have been entirely democratic).

Entirely false comparison. The referendum was a single issue vote. The 2019 general election was a vote on the entire tranche of policies contained in each Party's manifesto. There would have been no genuine democratic mandate from a general election vote to undo the Brexit vote. The Labour Party recognised this very obvious fact and offered a further single-issue vote on a renegotiated Brexit deal had they been elected. The LibDems' 2019 manifesto promised immediately to revoke Article 50 and run another Brexit referendum. Thus two major parties offered an opportunity for a way in which Brexit could be reversed. Importantly, both recognised it would be entirely undemocratic to attempt such a reversal without resorting to another single-issue referendum.

Edited January 13, 2023 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,301]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

It is Switzerland that has regular referendums, but they also have PR. It is efficient, but a common complaint is that reform tends to be slow. That said, in Switzerland you can have referendums via popular initiative but also if a law is passed, so this does slow down reform and also mean that politicians work together more effectively as ultimately - it's pretty embarrassing if you pass a law then it goes to referendum as enough people signed in a short period of time after it became law.

Some would rightly argue that reform is slow. Others would also rightly argue that it means the political work done is more thorough, and I've said on this board that I'm very much a fan of how the Swiss handle their political affairs.

Could you honestly see the Swiss system working in the UK? The Swiss population is only circa 8m and 25% of that is made up of foreigners without the right to vote. The referendum on Brexit was massively divisive and mired successive governments in infighting over that single issue at the expense of dealing with the many problems they should have been confronting (the dire results of which we can see only too clearly today). The thought of the near 70m population of the UK being called regularly to vote in referendums fills me with dread. 

[horsefly 4,301]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boris-johnson-s-partygate-testimony-to-be-shown-in-full-on-live-tv/ar-AA16l3a6?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=07eb17909557471ab04fd0cf9aeaed42

So looking forward to the nail in Johnson's coffin being firmly hammered home. Great to know we'll be able to witness it live on TV:

Boris Johnson’s Partygate testimony to be shown in full on live TV

 

In what will be a high-stakes spectacle, major broadcasters are planning to air the entirety of the former prime minister’s testimony to parliament’s privileges committee, which is examining whether he misled MPs about law-breaking parties during the Covid pandemic.

So much sensitive evidence has been submitted to the inquiry that the Observer has been told it is being kept in a “strong room”. Only those with proper passes and reasons for access are allowed in and out. One source said some of the claims about parties were “decidedly weird”, and that new information would come to light.

Meanwhile, Johnson’s eagerly anticipated appearance – which could be one of only a small number of public hearings – will happen later than originally planned as a result of the quantity of documents the committee has been given. He is now expected to appear before the cameras next month. This will be broadcast live on parliament’s televised feed, and Sky News is already understood to have decided to show his whole evidence session.

The events that took place in Whitehall during the pandemic are already being raised ahead of the privileges committee examination. Last week, Johnson was accused of joking at one leaving party during lockdown that “this is the most unsocially distanced party in the UK right now”. He repeatedly told MPs that he did not know gatherings broke Covid laws in place at the time.

A spokesperson for Johnson did not deny the comment but said the then prime minister had “worked constantly” to ensure the government did all it could to save lives and protect livelihoods during the pandemic.

Whatever happens during the live questioning of Johnson during the inquiry, some MPs believe there is also a serious problem ahead for Rishi Sunak over the parties inquiry. MPs will have to vote on any sanction on Johnson recommended by the cross-party committee. While it is likely to be a “free” unwhipped vote, some MPs said that, in reality, Tories would seek advice over how they should vote.

One Labour MP predicted the event would end up being a “win-win” for Keir Starmer. “Let’s say that the committee decides the House was misled and Johnson is either forced to apologise to the House or suspended,” they said. “The government has to table a motion on that. Will they be whipping people to support it, or to vote down a Labour amendment designed to increase the sanction against him? They will be terrified about what to do. If he doesn’t defend Johnson, Johnson could try to take Sunak down. If he does defend him, the voters will take a dim view.”

[horsefly 4,301]

So, a Tory Party donor who was handed millions of taxpayers' money to supply PPE is now being given millions more taxpayers' money to burn it. Nothing remotely corrupt about that of course: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tory-donor-s-firm-behind-ppe-delivery-now-to-be-paid-millions-to-burn-it/ar-AA16mdTg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=295af9a4d60c40a9a4221158a8913825 

Surely, it's time to ban any political party donor from bidding for, or receiving, government contracts. Similarly it's time to ban any political party donor receiving any kind of government honour (knighthoods, elevation to the Lords etc). 

Tory donor’s firm behind PPE delivery now to be paid millions to burn it

A company founded by a top Conservative Party donor that was paid £11m to deliver PPE kits during the pandemic will now be paid millions more to destroy them, it has been reported.

 

Clipper Logistics, founded by Tory donor Steve Parkin, will now receive £4.5m to burn PPE including gowns, and surgical gloves that did not meet NHS standards, sparking criticism from opposition parties over alleged contract cronyism in the country.

Two years ago, Clipper Logistics, one of the UK’s leading storage and delivery groups, received £11m of taxpayer money to deliver PPE kits, among £3.5bn-worth of emergency Covid contracts that went to Tory-linked firms, according to Labour.

The manner in which the government fast-tracked applications for Covid contracts from suppliers with connections to ministers and officials has since been ruled unlawful by the High Court.

Clipper Logistics has been handed a £4.5m contract to incinerate gowns, goggles and gloves that are among an estimated £4bn worth of PPE gear deemed too ineffective to be used, according to the Mirror.

r Parkin, 62, is no longer involved in the running of Clipper after it was acquired by US logistics giant GXO in an almost £1bn deal, but he remains a shareholder. He has reportedly donated £730,000 to the Conservatives since 2017.

 

[horsefly 4,301]

Nadhim Zahawi claimed that allegations he had fiddled his taxes were nothing more than scurrilous political smears. So I presume he wants us to believe that the millions he has just paid to the IR is nothing more than a generous unsolicited donation from a patriotic philanthropist.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/former-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-pays-millions-to-settle-tax-row-after-probe-into-family-business/ar-AA16mIDL?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=06bcc73fe23c4df8854722906c7391f6

[Herman 9,777]

People still clapped Bravermann, even after she got a telling off from a Holocaust survivor. Something dark and mean within some of our fellow countrymen. 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,188]

John$on to relea$e memoir$

I wonder what hi$ motivation for thi$ could be?

Edited January 16, 2023 by How I Wrote Elastic Man

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

39 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

John$on to relea$e memoir$

I wonder what hi$ motivation for thi$ could be?

How much does it cost to own an MP these days ? Is there a published price list somewhere in SW1 ?

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

On 13/01/2023 at 23:13, horsefly said:

Could you honestly see the Swiss system working in the UK? The Swiss population is only circa 8m and 25% of that is made up of foreigners without the right to vote. The referendum on Brexit was massively divisive and mired successive governments in infighting over that single issue at the expense of dealing with the many problems they should have been confronting (the dire results of which we can see only too clearly today). The thought of the near 70m population of the UK being called regularly to vote in referendums fills me with dread. 

Yes, I could but it would need to be a gradual transition and not imposed in one fell swoop. Don't forget that the Swiss Confederation is highly regionalised with 26 cantons so I don't really see any reason why it wouldn't upscale (you could readily argue in some ways that the United States is a far larger version regarding the granting of state rights within a federal, overarching network even if their electoral models are wildly different). It would just take longer to tot up the votes, but we do that in General Elections anyway.

In Switzerland you generally need a double majority - so over 50% of voters have to agree, and over 50% of the cantons have to agree (this prevents cases where a large number of voters in a densely populated region carry a vote and is designed to work a bit like the Electoral College in the USA regarding allowing more rural areas not to be completely drowned out in voting terms) to boot. Furthermore, in Switzerland, they're used to referendums so they're nowhere near as divisive as Brexit was - not to mention I doubt there was a referendum with so much at stake. Possibly the only one that got even close was the famous minaret ban in a 2009 vote and that certainly led to a prolonged period of mulling over and critiquing amongst German-language media.

Also don't forget that the Swiss have PR too, and they've had coalition governments since certainly the end of WW2, so their politicians are naturally more predisposed to compromise. It's more divisive in the UK due to our FPTP model again, and the inherent "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality it inevitably fosters.

[sonyc 5,526]

Just a few thoughts reading about inequality across a few threads.

....and watching that BBC advert tonight (on most nights) - the one where the message is that it belongs to "all of us". You get a sense that after a few attacks by this administration in the recent past that the BBC felt like it had to be done? And that got me thinking about failed states and how they want to control the press and media.

Then, of course this government is advancing towards restricting the right to protest and initiating legislation on the right to strike. 

Finally, in stark juxtaposition to all the above, I think of all the crap talk about freedom - to trade, our 'Brexit freedoms' etc. Like advertisers do, there appears an attempt to make a core weakness appear a strength.

We've already lost a right of free movement. We've also seen how the ideological madness of letting the markets run free has dented the economy under Truss.

'Free' countries don't act by passing legislation to control free speech or action. We have moved so much more to the right. 

Anyway, freedom eh?! Freedom 'to' or 'from'? Or freedom for the rich whilst the rest of society lose their rights.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Keegan saying that Scotland's trans gender laws will be repealed because we can't have two tier systems.

So are they repealing all those already in existence?

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

13 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Keegan saying that Scotland's trans gender laws will be repealed because we can't have two tier systems.

So are they repealing all those already in existence?

Putting aside this spat between siblings I do think we need to rationalize all the various conflicting 'ages' of consent - marriage, driving, voting, criminal, alcohol and so on. What we have at present is an irrational mishmash of various ages of responsibility which are frankly inconsistent amongst themselves and would seem to have grown haphazard out of small c conservative thinking. If you can join the army, you can vote and get married and yes change your sexuality. You are either responsible or not.

Make everything 17 if you wish to compromise.  

[horsefly 4,301]

12 hours ago, sonyc said:

Just a few thoughts reading about inequality across a few threads.

....and watching that BBC advert tonight (on most nights) - the one where the message is that it belongs to "all of us". You get a sense that after a few attacks by this administration in the recent past that the BBC felt like it had to be done? And that got me thinking about failed states and how they want to control the press and media.

Then, of course this government is advancing towards restricting the right to protest and initiating legislation on the right to strike. 

Finally, in stark juxtaposition to all the above, I think of all the crap talk about freedom - to trade, our 'Brexit freedoms' etc. Like advertisers do, there appears an attempt to make a core weakness appear a strength.

We've already lost a right of free movement. We've also seen how the ideological madness of letting the markets run free has dented the economy under Truss.

'Free' countries don't act by passing legislation to control free speech or action. We have moved so much more to the right. 

Anyway, freedom eh?! Freedom 'to' or 'from'? Or freedom for the rich whilst the rest of society lose their rights.

Just to add to your list, the Tory legislation requiring photo ID to vote is perhaps the most sinister of all. There is a miniscule amount of voter fraud in this country, all of which can be dealt with perfectly well by existing legislation. This  requirement will disenfranchise many people, the vast majority of whom will come from the more disadvantaged sections of society. No coincidence, of course, that they are the people least likely to vote Tory.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/biggest-change-to-how-we-vote-in-a-generation-criticised-as-new-free-id-scheme-launched/ar-AA16p7Gx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dfd53a5abc5440cf8060be10aaf19874

Edited January 17, 2023 by horsefly

[Herman 9,777]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Keegan saying that Scotland's trans gender laws will be repealed because we can't have two tier systems.

So are they repealing all those already in existence?

SNP playing the tories like a fiddle. 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

14 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

John$on to relea$e memoir$

I wonder what hi$ motivation for thi$ could be?

I hope one of his many benefactors will give him enough money to hire a good libel lawyer to read through the draft...

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

Another part of the levelling up process crumbles.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

27 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Another part of the levelling up process crumbles.

 

If we don't have a battery factory then we cannot produce electric cars.

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

He'll need a lot of help climbing onto a soapbox.

 

[Well b back 3,208]

6 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

He'll need a lot of help climbing onto a soapbox.

 

Bet Tory voters like me that now think they should be ousted won’t be getting an invite.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

If its Connect it must be an Xbox not Soapbox.

[king canary 7,609]

22 hours ago, Herman said:

SNP playing the tories like a fiddle. 

Maybe. The law they are trying to push through is deeply unpopular in both Scotland and the UK though so it can actually make the Tories look sensible.

[Herman 9,777]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Maybe. The law they are trying to push through is deeply unpopular in both Scotland and the UK though so it can actually make the Tories look sensible.

Aye, a small, niche, wedge issue that both sides are trying to use to appeal to their bases. It's not pretty and I feel that Labour should take the best option and sit this one out.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

Aye, a small, niche, wedge issue that both sides are trying to use to appeal to their bases. It's not pretty and I feel that Labour should take the best option and sit this one out.

Yes - Its a trap for SKS to get overtly involved caught between the SNP using it (understandably) an an independence stick and the Tories as a culture war issue. A plague on both their houses in this instance.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

the latest red Tory and his side kick is getting his very deserved comeuppance. From his own MP's. Labour is dead great coalition coming up to beast us some more.

Craig Murray -

@CraigMurrayOrg

·

21h

Starmer and Streeting are bought by the private healthcare lobby. NHS privatisation will progress still quicker under Starmer than under the blue Tories. Diane is absolutely right to call this out. So should everyone who genuinely cares about the NHS.

[Herman 9,777]

15 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

the latest red Tory and his side kick is getting his very deserved comeuppance. From his own MP's. Labour is dead great coalition coming up to beast us some more.

Craig Murray -

@CraigMurrayOrg

·

21h

Starmer and Streeting are bought by the private healthcare lobby. NHS privatisation will progress still quicker under Starmer than under the blue Tories. Diane is absolutely right to call this out. So should everyone who genuinely cares about the NHS.

This is the sort of stupid, lazy thinking that keeps the bloody tories in power all the time. The Labour left spend too much energy fighting for idealogical purity amongst themselves than targeting the clear and obvious problems. Fools.

[horsefly 4,301]

21 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

the latest red Tory and his side kick is getting his very deserved comeuppance. From his own MP's. Labour is dead great coalition coming up to beast us some more.

Craig Murray -

@CraigMurrayOrg

·

21h

Starmer and Streeting are bought by the private healthcare lobby. NHS privatisation will progress still quicker under Starmer than under the blue Tories. Diane is absolutely right to call this out. So should everyone who genuinely cares about the NHS.

Would that be the same red-blooded socialist Dianne Abbott who went to a private school and sent her own son to one too?

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/diane-abbott-sparks-fury-from-labour-mp-after-attacking-starmers-nhs-reforms/425908

Edited January 18, 2023 by horsefly

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Would that be the same red-blooded socialist Dianne Abbott who went to a private school and sent her own son to one too?

https://www.gbnews.uk/news/diane-abbott-sparks-fury-from-labour-mp-after-attacking-starmers-nhs-reforms/425908

She went to grammar school, not private school. But you're right about her son going. Not a great look.

[horsefly 4,301]

An astonishingly stark assessment of the state of the UK economy by the chief of the CBI:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/the-world-is-giving-up-on-britain-warns-cbi-chief/ar-AA16tZsj?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4f4a60aa81de4a0aaaae103921cb005e

The world is giving up on Britain, warns CBI chief

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

5 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

the latest red Tory and his side kick is getting his very deserved comeuppance. From his own MP's. Labour is dead great coalition coming up to beast us some more.

Craig Murray -

@CraigMurrayOrg

·

21h

Starmer and Streeting are bought by the private healthcare lobby. NHS privatisation will progress still quicker under Starmer than under the blue Tories. Diane is absolutely right to call this out. So should everyone who genuinely cares about the NHS.

I thought Starmer took a bit of a beating today by Sunak. What he came out with was something current but lets not forget, Labour Governments haven't exactly made the NHS fit for use. Blair who proposed the market serving the public did the opposite with the NHS and his use of the private sector in 1999 meant the public was serving the market. And all the good he had done by funding the NHS to a greater extent than any other Government was now just history.

The NHS was the greatest gift to this nation, Treatment at source was the real levelling up. That successive Governments just filled in the potholes has led to where we are now. That and Major introducing Trusts, have undermined the foundations of it and it is going to take a revolution to get it to where Atlee and Bevan would have wished.