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8 hours ago, sonyc said:

A very good point there H about the level of debate and the dominant narrative (seems like years) has been about free market forces coupled with low taxes (encapsulating the ideas of individual freedom - also tapping into the idea of ambition and enterprise with a bit of spin).

It's time there was a renaissance for Keynes.

I may have posted before but my old lecturer used to say that one way of boosting growth - for the really long term - is to build something really important in each large town or city, on the scale of a cathedral. You use tons of labour creating the foundations and it takes decades to build. Benefits too for transport, the local economy etc. In the meantime you attract investors, government support and excitement about it. Employment is boosted. I suppose when cathedrals or railway stations or massive hotels were built in the past (with an accent on the building being beautiful in its design - that is a MUST) there was a lot of local pride. Once built, my lecturer argued, people would visit in their numbers for many years. 

I guess that was his idealistic vision (god rest his soul) for a better world. Building beautiful things - of use - involving thousands of people - over decades. 

It would just require some vision about what would be built. But I see his vision now ever clearer. As de-industrialisation has occured, especially in the north, places don't have a purpose anymore. Lancashire towns no longer are the cotton kings. Bradford no longer a woollen capital.  But, you can see the thrust of such an endeavour - essentially you'd be giving an area, a locality a purpose once again. A reason for it's being. Maybe Cambridge is the place for study but also it's a technological area of excellence. You might have another in say, Burnley. Why not? You get the idea anyway.

Anyway, you've just jogged a memory of my old teacher and his love of Keynes.

If you pay / invest for something important and lovely then there is value in doing so and you reap the reward...that seems a better economic blueprint for society. It's the same with our relationships, you give your love as fully and dedicatedly as possible and life is more fulfilled. In other words, you often get what you give! That's the kind of thing we need to hear from our politicians.

How about a bridge between Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

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33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

How about a bridge between Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Beaufort's D*ke was the engineering challenge too far at the time of debate (sheer depth and width) plus very dangerous currents. On top of that weren't munitions dumped there in their thousands? Or millions? Plus with the EU border being in the middle of the Irish Sea of course😅😂

But the idea of something seriously ambitious like that is one of those infrastructure projects Keynes would have liked (so long as it was also socially purposive), which transport is of course. If only they could join up Liverpool and Hull far more effectively (HS4) it would enable the import and export of goods from the US and Europe far more effectively. It would galvanise the whole of the north with economic 'nodes' all the way across the country (like a crossrail). 

Anyway...we dream on. Btw, the X Pennine train experience is appalling at the moment and has been for a long while. Feel sorry for the thousands that have to use it. It wouldn't be allowed to have deteriorated so badly if in the south one tends to believe.

Johnson was right in needing infrastructure investment but his policy was half baked and not nearly as ambitious or funded as it needed to be. Levelling Up was never properly thought through and was hastily put together. The idea was / is sound. But we need ways of properly funding (as some posters have stated) and that is not likely to happen soon.

Edited by sonyc
Cannot believe d y k e cannot be stated

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p-once, sponge, bludger, freeloader, loafer, ex-PM.

 

Edited by Herman

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4 hours ago, Herman said:

p-once, sponge, bludger, freeloader, loafer, ex-PM.

 

Yeah, fcuk the lazy bustards on strike. Give  'em a good whipping. I haven't asked for a pay rise. I'm thinking of the country. The bigger picture.

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5 hours ago, Herman said:

p-once, sponge, bludger, freeloader, loafer, ex-PM.

 

 

What is so daft is the people who pay him this  - they must have more money than sense.

What is he - some sort of comedy act ?

What can he talk about that might give insights?  -  How he took the British voters for mugs on Brexit and how to get away with it - Hey, perhaps they can do the same.

 

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

 

What is so daft is the people who pay him this  - they must have more money than sense.

What is he - some sort of comedy act ?

What can he talk about that might give insights?  -  How he took the British voters for mugs on Brexit and how to get away with it - Hey, perhaps they can do the same.

 

What I don't get is why someone like Bamford is subsidising him. He's clearly no mug but showing mug qualities. What are they up to? 

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31 minutes ago, Herman said:

What I don't get is why someone like Bamford is subsidising him. He's clearly no mug but showing mug qualities. What are they up to? 

Waiting in the wings. When Labour wins in two years. or sooner, he will step into the limelight again as an election winner.

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6 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

What is so daft is the people who pay him this  - they must have more money than sense.

 

Absolutely, much as I dislike Johnson and despite the multitude of things he can and should be blamed for, if people even now are still stupid enough to pay huge sums of cash to hear him talk total b*ll*cks then it certainly seems a major step forward from the days when it was costing the taxpayer huge sums of cash to have him talking total b*ll*cks as PM.

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2 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Absolutely, much as I dislike Johnson and despite the multitude of things he can and should be blamed for, if people even now are still stupid enough to pay huge sums of cash to hear him talk total b*ll*cks then it certainly seems a major step forward from the days when it was costing the taxpayer huge sums of cash to have him talking total b*ll*cks as PM.

These people are the business leaders of the world?

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15 hours ago, Herman said:

p-once, sponge, bludger, freeloader, loafer, ex-PM.

 

The VIP reception in India organised by the Hindustan Times stands out as being the most interesting speaking appointment to me.

One thing I learnt when I used to produce oil and gas conferences was that the interesting stuff was the conversations around the dinner tables; it wasn't spoken from the speaker's podium.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Interesting argument about the parameters used by Independent Review Boards.

Yes it is, and one that we would have heard far more about if we had news media in this country that was any good at its job.

Must admit that I've found it infuriating to listen to interview after interview with Tory ministers who have absolutely nothing useful to say and simply quote the feeble defence that they've implemented the recommendations of the independent pay review body with a strong emphasis on independent without any pushback from the interviewers when we all know they are independent in name only, and are just a very convenient shield for Tory governments who have spent the last decade or so running our public services, and the people that work in them, into the ground.

Time for these 'independent' bodies to be made genuinely independent or scrapped altogether - if I worked in a public service, which fortunately I don't although several of my family do, then I think I would prefer the latter.

 

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41 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Yes it is, and one that we would have heard far more about if we had news media in this country that was any good at its job.

Must admit that I've found it infuriating to listen to interview after interview with Tory ministers who have absolutely nothing useful to say and simply quote the feeble defence that they've implemented the recommendations of the independent pay review body with a strong emphasis on independent without any pushback from the interviewers when we all know they are independent in name only, and are just a very convenient shield for Tory governments who have spent the last decade or so running our public services, and the people that work in them, into the ground.

Time for these 'independent' bodies to be made genuinely independent or scrapped altogether - if I worked in a public service, which fortunately I don't although several of my family do, then I think I would prefer the latter.

 

I agree with most of the thrust of this, and I probably would agree with the sentiment of this statement, but I think we don't actually know that they're independent in name only, but we do tend to assume that from a cynical standpoint.

It does raise the question why nobody actually covers the people and processes involved in these reviews when they're the arbiters on such important issues. Why shouldn't the chair of that committee turn up on Newsnight and make an account of their reasoning in their recommendations? Wouldn't that, in turn, help the public get a better view of what's going on than asking them to trust opaque bodies that nobody does trust?

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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This was actually a vey good read. Nailed it.

It could be posted on several threads but perhaps here is apt as the issue seems largest in the last few years.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/22/politics-difference-between-lies-****

"Some enterprising future editor of a dictionary of political terms will carry the word “****” and cite as examples: writing two opposing columns on Brexit, claiming the NHS will be £350m a week better off and affecting a hurt expression when asked the whereabouts of your promised 40 new hospitals. Come on! Those little-doggy eyes beseech the hard-faced TV interviewer. Didn’t everyone know that was ****?"

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Sh*it government decides you should swim in shi*t until 2063. Thank the Lord that privatisation of our water put it in the hands of foreign corporations. Nothing like the efficiency of private business.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/dec/22/target-date-for-cleaning-up-waterways-in-england-is-moved-back-by-36-years

Target date for cleaning up waterways in England is moved back by 36 years

 

Targets to clean up the majority of England’s rivers, lakes and coastal waters suffering from a cocktail of agricultural and sewage pollution have been pushed back from 2027 to 2063.

Not one English waterway, including rivers, lakes, estuaries and coastal waters is in good ecological and chemical health at present, with pollution from water treatment plants and agriculture the key sources of the damage. The Environment Agency said on Thursday £5.3bn was being invested for the next five years to stop the further deterioration of waterways.

 

But the summary documents within the plan reveal the target for all 3,651 water bodies to achieve good chemical and ecological status – a state in which they are as close to their natural state as possible – was now decades away in 2063.

 

Until Brexit the UK government was signed up to the water framework directive, which required countries to make sure all their waters achieved “good” chemical and ecological status by 2027 at the latest. The UK government later reduced the target to 75% of waterways reaching the single test of good ecological status by 2027 at the latest. The target for the majority of waterways to achieve good status in both chemical and ecological tests has now been pushed back to 2063, according to the documents.

By 2027, only 4% of waters are currently on track to be in good overall condition.

The Wildlife Trusts said the new river basin management plans were the third instalment of proposals to restore nearly 5,000 rivers, lakes, estuaries and coastal waters across England. Both previous plans from 2009 and 2015 were supposed to oversee the recovery of a large proportion of these waters by 2015 and 2021 – but the targets were missed and pushed back.

Ali Morse, water policy manager for the Wildlife Trusts, said this new target of 2063 meant rivers, lakes and coastal waters would not be healthy within the lifetimes of many people. “For too long we have allowed our rivers and lakes to become poisoned, decimating aquatic wildlife and habitats.

 

“We need ambitious targets to repair the immense damage inflicted on our natural world. Instead, the government is comfortable with kicking action on rivers into the long grass. At this rate, a great deal of us will not see England’s rivers and lakes given a clean bill of health in our lifetimes – and that is nothing short of a tragedy.”

The latest state of rivers and lakes released by the Environment Agency in 2020 shows that only 16% meet the criteria for good ecological status and no surface water bodies are deemed to meet the criteria for achieving good chemical status. Both criteria are required for a waterway to be deemed as in a good state - thus no river, lake or coastal water is judged to be in a good state at present.

 

The Environment Agency said on Thursday the £5.3bn being invested in the river basement management plans into waterways over the next five years would help protect and enhance England’s waters, tackling the impacts of pollution and climate change. The plans are legally-binding and aimed at tackling the key threats to rivers and coastal waters which are water company pollution, agricultural pollution, climate change and population growth.

But if no progress is made the EA said only 6% of rivers, lakes and coastal waters would be in a good ecological state by 2043.

John Leyland, EA executive director said: “Whilst progress has been made to protect and enhance England’s waters, it is clear that considerable time and investment will still be needed if we are to see the further improvement in our water environment that we all want.”

The £5.3bn action plan to 2027 was already funded, the EA said. It included £4.3bn of action by water companies and more than £500m to mitigate the impacts of agriculture on the water environment.

The Wildlife Trusts said pressures from water demand and pollution were incessant; from record-breaking temperatures and low rainfall, to the overuse of storm overflows to release raw sewage into rivers, even at times of dry conditions. The latter, the trusts said, were a clear sign that investment in sewage infrastructure had not kept pace with what was needed.

Morse said the reason for what was an extremely long road to recovery of river health outlined in the new plans was in the majority of cases, chemical pollution. Waterways are polluted by chemicals from landfill sites, urban runoff or agriculture, and when these chemicals have already reached the environment, there was very little that could be done to remove them, she said.

 

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What we've always known to be true:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/study-conservatives-are-less-intelligent/ar-AA15IM4j?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=44f11642a7304fb2b1abb9b7338c504e

Study: Conservatives are less intelligent

 

Various studies have been trying for a long time to find out which group of voters – conservative or liberal, for example – is „smartest“ on average. Mostly measured by the so-called intelligence quotient. In long-term studies in particular, the results are the same – regardless of the countries in which the studies were conducted. In America, for example, it was found that young people who described themselves as „very conservative“ had an average IQ of 95 – five points below the average 100. By contrast, their peers who described themselves as „very liberal“ had an average IQ of 106. According to psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa, writing in the journal Social Psychology Quartlery, this is mainly due to the fact that more intelligent people find it easier to behave differently than evolution has imposed.

The results are consistent with two other British long-term studieswhich were evaluated by a group of Canadian scientists from Brock University in Ontario. The intelligence of around 9,000 children aged ten to eleven was determined. More than twenty years later, the test subjects were surveyed again.

It was found that participants tended to hold right-wing views because it gave them a sense of „order“ or „preserving the status quo.“

 

Overall, it could be concluded that smart young people tend to vote Green or Liberal, whereas rigid mindsets that entail a desire for order tend to vote for more tradition-oriented parties.

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So, as collapse seriously threatens all key aspects of normal life in the country, it's good to see that our PM has his finger on the pulse:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/rishi-sunaks-maths-to-18-proposals-get-shredded-341419/

I suppose if we all get better at maths we will be more able to calculate more accurately just how much debt we are in and are unable to pay back. Bravo Rishi! But perhaps it would have been more useful for you to offer your new £400,000 personal pool complex as a warm bank for your impoverished constituents.

 

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I see since Sunaks speech, his ratings have fell even further. They really do not get Trumpism no longer works, those days are gone and people now look at ‘ does that actually mean what you just said.

  1. Halving inflation to ease the cost of living and give people financial security
  2. Growing the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity across the country
  3. Ensuring our national debt is falling to secure the future of public services
  4. Cutting NHS waiting lists so that people get the care they need more quickly
  5. Passing new laws to stop small boats, making sure that those who come to the UK illegally are detained and swiftly removed

1. Of course inflation will halve, ****, we all know they won’t increase to 26% as prices can’t continue to increase as they are worked out against the previous month a year ago, so of course it will come down. 

2. Does not better paid jobs result in an increase in inflation ? If not why did you tell us that a month ago. Wouldn’t it be best to sort the NHS and Social Care out, before they all leave for these better paid jobs.

3. So what the f*** does that mean, you are going to hang the poorer in society out to dry ?

4. So you are going to remove people from the list, by regrading and getting some to say they no longer want the treatment and of course those that die waiting for the treatment.

5. Those that come to the U.K. ‘ Illegally ‘ are a small % of the total number. 
So nice Trumpism Sunak. Your own party supporters don’t even believe you. You have mentioned 5 things that are nonsense, but because of Johnson and Trump, us mere mortals can now see the complete picture.

Still no sign of the £350 million a week going into the NHS, O well. Those that you are insulting such as the nurses are the same people that are going to bring you down.

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Remind me, did Rishi win the World Hide and Seek Championships? it must be a record.

Think he came third, behind Barclay and Hunt ( did I spell that correctly ).

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Think he came third, behind Barclay and Hunt ( did I spell that correctly ).

No one from South Norfolk has seen Richard Bacon MP for a couple of years. In his case MP stands for missing person.

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More news on 2. 
It seems that if the economy grows by small amounts after the summer, we will still spend close on 2 years in recession as things now are so bad.

Trumpism no longer works, you will be called out now, and the caller outers will now be believed.

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14 hours ago, Well b back said:

I see since Sunaks speech, his ratings have fell even further. They really do not get Trumpism no longer works, those days are gone and people now look at ‘ does that actually mean what you just said.

  1. Halving inflation to ease the cost of living and give people financial security
  2. Growing the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity across the country
  3. Ensuring our national debt is falling to secure the future of public services
  4. Cutting NHS waiting lists so that people get the care they need more quickly
  5. Passing new laws to stop small boats, making sure that those who come to the UK illegally are detained and swiftly removed

1. Of course inflation will halve, ****, we all know they won’t increase to 26% as prices can’t continue to increase as they are worked out against the previous month a year ago, so of course it will come down. 

2. Does not better paid jobs result in an increase in inflation ? If not why did you tell us that a month ago. Wouldn’t it be best to sort the NHS and Social Care out, before they all leave for these better paid jobs.

3. So what the f*** does that mean, you are going to hang the poorer in society out to dry ?

4. So you are going to remove people from the list, by regrading and getting some to say they no longer want the treatment and of course those that die waiting for the treatment.

5. Those that come to the U.K. ‘ Illegally ‘ are a small % of the total number. 
So nice Trumpism Sunak. Your own party supporters don’t even believe you. You have mentioned 5 things that are nonsense, but because of Johnson and Trump, us mere mortals can now see the complete picture.

Still no sign of the £350 million a week going into the NHS, O well. Those that you are insulting such as the nurses are the same people that are going to bring you down.

Yep! most of his measures have already been predicted to happen by the BOE and every other economic organisation. Frankly if they didn't happen it would have to be because the country has been blown up in a nuclear war. Entirely vacuous! He might as well have said he would measure his premiership successful if robins were still visiting bird tables. Regarding the NHS and boat people, he had to say something but I suspect he has created a hostage to fortune there.

The whole speech reminded me of a sixth form head boy trying to please his tutors. Poor oratory skills marked by an over-the-top (fake) earnestness in tone that was entirely unconvincing and lacking in any substance. 

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12 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Brilliant idea, sack the nurses, that will put the NHS in a much better position.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rishi-sunaks-strike-law-to-let-bosses-sack-workers-and-sue-unions-fjkcr5rnq

Remember that promise from these lying Tory bas*tards, that Brexit would empower them to improve workers rights beyond EU levels. We all knew that the very opposite would be the case. Truss must have left her copy of "Britain Unchained" on the PM's desk.

If they do this the I for one would absolutely support the call for a general strike.

Edited by horsefly

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20 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Remember that promise from these lying Tory bas*tards, that Brexit would empower them to improve workers rights beyond EU levels. We all knew that the very opposite would be the case. Truss must have left her copy of "Britain Unchained" on the PM's desk.

If they do this the I for one would absolutely support the call for a general strike.

This was put up the other day. This is what Vote Leave were selling to people.

 

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And all Blair Starmer can do is pinch a Leave slogan, and prattle on about other slogans. Where is the substance? We had enough of Corbyn prevaricating now we have more piffle.

He says Labour needs to prepare to step into Government at any time. So what will you do with all the current problems. There is no "big Government chequebook" he says. So how will you solve the problems?

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