New Tory Leader

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

On 28/12/2022 at 08:04, horsefly said:

What we've always known to be true:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/study-conservatives-are-less-intelligent/ar-AA15IM4j?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=44f11642a7304fb2b1abb9b7338c504e

Study: Conservatives are less intelligent

 

Various studies have been trying for a long time to find out which group of voters – conservative or liberal, for example – is „smartest“ on average. Mostly measured by the so-called intelligence quotient. In long-term studies in particular, the results are the same – regardless of the countries in which the studies were conducted. In America, for example, it was found that young people who described themselves as „very conservative“ had an average IQ of 95 – five points below the average 100. By contrast, their peers who described themselves as „very liberal“ had an average IQ of 106. According to psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa, writing in the journal Social Psychology Quartlery, this is mainly due to the fact that more intelligent people find it easier to behave differently than evolution has imposed.

The results are consistent with two other British long-term studieswhich were evaluated by a group of Canadian scientists from Brock University in Ontario. The intelligence of around 9,000 children aged ten to eleven was determined. More than twenty years later, the test subjects were surveyed again.

It was found that participants tended to hold right-wing views because it gave them a sense of „order“ or „preserving the status quo.“

 

Overall, it could be concluded that smart young people tend to vote Green or Liberal, whereas rigid mindsets that entail a desire for order tend to vote for more tradition-oriented parties.

As much as I'd like to agree here, watch out if you see the name Satoshi Kanazawa - he's had some humdingers over the years where he's tried drawing some pretty hair-brained conclusions.

The Data Are In Regarding Satoshi Kanazawa - Scientific American Blog Network

[sonyc 5,519]

On 04/01/2023 at 16:33, Well b back said:

I see since Sunaks speech, his ratings have fell even further. They really do not get Trumpism no longer works, those days are gone and people now look at ‘ does that actually mean what you just said.

1. Halving inflation to ease the cost of living and give people financial security
2. Growing the economy, creating better-paid jobs and opportunity across the country
3. Ensuring our national debt is falling to secure the future of public services
4. Cutting NHS waiting lists so that people get the care they need more quickly
5. Passing new laws to stop small boats, making sure that those who come to the UK illegally are detained and swiftly removed

1. Of course inflation will halve, ****, we all know they won’t increase to 26% as prices can’t continue to increase as they are worked out against the previous month a year ago, so of course it will come down. 

2. Does not better paid jobs result in an increase in inflation ? If not why did you tell us that a month ago. Wouldn’t it be best to sort the NHS and Social Care out, before they all leave for these better paid jobs.

3. So what the f*** does that mean, you are going to hang the poorer in society out to dry ?

4. So you are going to remove people from the list, by regrading and getting some to say they no longer want the treatment and of course those that die waiting for the treatment.

5. Those that come to the U.K. ‘ Illegally ‘ are a small % of the total number. 
So nice Trumpism Sunak. Your own party supporters don’t even believe you. You have mentioned 5 things that are nonsense, but because of Johnson and Trump, us mere mortals can now see the complete picture.

Still no sign of the £350 million a week going into the NHS, O well. Those that you are insulting such as the nurses are the same people that are going to bring you down.

Listening to Starmer today (taking back control...not out of Europe but out of Westminster) was so different to Sunak's vacuous words. As someone stated on Twitter Sunak is a kind of Linkedin PM. 

Starmer has been listening and travelling round the UK. He knows he will be inheriting a ***storm of problems. His words were thoughtful, honest and there was an absence of the crap we've been hearing about Global Britain or anything ground breaking. More like honest and grounded ideas, formed by listening to grassroot frustration.

Like you I wonder whether the NHS night actually break this Tory government. Each day that passes makes me feel more that this could happen. Almost 3 years ago on a football / coronavirus thread I asked the question about our struggling NHS under the Tories. I thought that Covid would be a massive factor but actually it's this government that is the biggest threat. It's taken a once in a lifetime strike to bring this issue to the forefront. And we all know that the Care sector is broken. Completely broken. Speak to anyone who has had experience, either through relatives or workers.

People will vote this shocking government out. 

[benchwarmer 625]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Listening to Starmer today (taking back control...not out of Europe but out of Westminster) was so different to Sunak's vacuous words.

 

He told us what we already know: that Labour has thrown the 48% under the bus.  That's politics. 

 

 

[sonyc 5,519]

29 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

He told us what we already know: that Labour has thrown the 48% under the bus.  That's politics. 

 

 

Probably until 2024 / 2025.

67% plus now support a new referendum....a movement is building 🙏

And if we weren't lied to about Brexit but people were asked at the time of the vote whether they wanted more local control - about their jobs and away from everything London and home counties-centric government policy - then who knows what people might have voted for. What they did vote for they certainly never got anyway!

[Well b back 3,207]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Listening to Starmer today (taking back control...not out of Europe but out of Westminster) was so different to Sunak's vacuous words. As someone stated on Twitter Sunak is a kind of Linkedin PM. 

Starmer has been listening and travelling round the UK. He knows he will be inheriting a ***storm of problems. His words were thoughtful, honest and there was an absence of the crap we've been hearing about Global Britain or anything ground breaking. More like honest and grounded ideas, formed by listening to grassroot frustration.

Like you I wonder whether the NHS night actually break this Tory government. Each day that passes makes me feel more that this could happen. Almost 3 years ago on a football / coronavirus thread I asked the question about our struggling NHS under the Tories. I thought that Covid would be a massive factor but actually it's this government that is the biggest threat. It's taken a once in a lifetime strike to bring this issue to the forefront. And we all know that the Care sector is broken. Completely broken. Speak to anyone who has had experience, either through relatives or workers.

People will vote this shocking government out. 

Bet you don’t even know there’s a new variant currently ? Doesn’t show much on tests either, so lots of those with ‘ I haven’t got covid ‘ actually have. It’s been nicknamed ‘ Kraken ‘. It’s being kept nice and quiet, as we are not adult enough to be told and like everything else it’s a big secret that they can use to beat the nurses up.

[Well b back 3,207]

7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Probably until 2024 / 2025.

67% plus now support a new referendum....a movement is building 🙏

And if we weren't lied to about Brexit but people were asked at the time of the vote whether they wanted more local control - about their jobs and away from everything London and home counties-centric government policy - then who knows what people might have voted for. What they did vote for they certainly never got anyway!

Can a movement in the South particularly, saying they would have a new vote ( a bit like the SNP ) ever get enough seats to make a difference.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

8 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

He told us what we already know: that Labour has thrown the 48% under the bus.  That's politics. 

 

 

Wouldn't agree with that at all - the 48% are already under the bus and have been from the moment that Theresa May drew up her ridiculous red lines which meant her only choices were a hard Brexit or a no-deal Brexit - at no time during what seemed her interminable and amateurish attempts to get a deal did she pay any regard whatsoever to the 48%

Johnson then drove the bus over the 48% in double quick time with his spectacularly inept hard Brexit deal.

Starmer is only at fault, as far as I can see, in being too timid to propose any real remedy not just for the original 48% but for the additional 15-20% of voters who've come to share their view of Brexit.

That fault is a big one IMO, but still not remotely comparable with the corrupt incompetent Tory b@stards that actually have screwed the country over and have absolutely no ideas whatsoever as to how to improve the situation - their only concern is a desperate and rather pathetic effort to shift the blame for their own failings.

 

[benchwarmer 625]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

Probably until 2024 / 2025.

67% plus now support a new referendum....a movement is building 🙏

And if we weren't lied to about Brexit but people were asked at the time of the vote whether they wanted more local control - about their jobs and away from everything London and home counties-centric government policy - then who knows what people might have voted for. What they did vote for they certainly never got anyway!

Exactly.  But by using the Leave slogan "Take back control" Starmer is talking to Brexiteers and is encouraging them to think that devolved control is a benefit of Brexit when there is in fact no connection.  He's distancing himself from Remainers, including those that he most needs - Scottish SNP voters.  Not clever.

Edited January 5, 2023 by benchwarmer

[horsefly 4,300]

12 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

Exactly.  But by using the Leave slogan "Take back control" Starmer is talking to Brexiteers and is encouraging them to think that devolved control is a benefit of Brexit when there is in fact no connection.  He's distancing himself from Remainers, including those that he most needs - Scottish SNP voters.  Not clever.

I completely get your frustration benchwarmer, Brexit has been a colossal disaster for the country, and "making the best of it" won't come close to the benefits of having remained within the EU. However, sadly I think Starmer has got this one completely right. 

The time to push for a second referendum was clearly before Brexit had happened, but through vanity and hubris Corbyn and Swinson refused to unite in common cause for the good of the country. Instead, they committed one of the most foolish errors in modern political  history and granted Johnson an election which ensured victory both for Brexit and the Tories. To this day I am left utterly bewildered by the question regarding what kind of delusional narrative was going on inside Corbyn's head at that time.

The next government will inherit a set of crises worse than any in recent living memory. The collapse of the NHS, education, social care, housing, cost of living etc, etc, etc, are all existential issues that will require the most urgent dedication of attention. The idea that Starmer should run his election campaign on a promise to spend the first year of a Labour administration re-running a divisive Brexit referendum, followed by a couple of years negotiating re-entry to the EU and single market (on terms that would inevitably be worse than those we had previously), would be a manifesto every Tory strategist would give their right arm to see Labour commit. It would be a folly up there with Corbyn's granting to Johnson an election that he couldn't have otherwise had.

As much as I would love to see the UK return to the EU fold I sincerely believe the country would not elect Labour if it were to ignore putting its entire effort into addressing the seriously urgent issues affecting their everyday battles for survival. I suspect that there will come a point in recovery when Labour can again make the case for the clear benefits of re-joining the EU, I just don't see that case being electorally plausible for some time, and certainly not before the next general election.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

30 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I completely get your frustration benchwarmer, Brexit has been a colossal disaster for the country, and "making the best of it" won't come close to the benefits of having remained within the EU. However, sadly I think Starmer has got this one completely right. 

The time to push for a second referendum was clearly before Brexit had happened, but through vanity and hubris Corbyn and Swinson refused to unite in common cause for the good of the country. Instead, they committed one of the most foolish errors in modern political  history and granted Johnson an election which ensured victory both for Brexit and the Tories. To this day I am left utterly bewildered by the question regarding what kind of delusional narrative was going on inside Corbyn's head at that time.

The next government will inherit a set of crises worse than any in recent living memory. The collapse of the NHS, education, social care, housing, cost of living etc, etc, etc, are all existential issues that will require the most urgent dedication of attention. The idea that Starmer should run his election campaign on a promise to spend the first year of a Labour administration re-running a divisive Brexit referendum, followed by a couple of years negotiating re-entry to the EU and single market (on terms that would inevitably be worse than those we had previously), would be a manifesto every Tory strategist would give their right arm to see Labour commit. It would be a folly up there with Corbyn's granting to Johnson an election that he couldn't have otherwise had.

As much as I would love to see the UK return to the EU fold I sincerely believe the country would not elect Labour if it were to ignore putting its entire effort into addressing the seriously urgent issues affecting their everyday battles for survival. I suspect that there will come a point in recovery when Labour can again make the case for the clear benefits of re-joining the EU, I just don't see that case being electorally plausible for some time, and certainly not before the next general election.

However, if he wanted to convince the electorate how bad Brexit has been for the country, he could do so with just facts and data. It wouldn't need opinion.

[horsefly 4,300]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

However, if he wanted to convince the electorate how bad Brexit has been for the country, he could do so with just facts and data. It wouldn't need opinion.

Indeed! But what would Labour gain from that? He's already committed to not spending years re-running the referendum and negotiating re-entry. It would be shooting himself in the foot to saying anything else than that he will make Brexit work with a more cooperative relationship with the EU.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

35 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! But what would Labour gain from that? He's already committed to not spending years re-running the referendum and negotiating re-entry. It would be shooting himself in the foot to saying anything else than that he will make Brexit work with a more cooperative relationship with the EU.

Yes but whether or not its impractical to rejoin, its about time that he convinced the world that the one bleddy thing the Tories aren't mentioning is Brexit when it comes to explaining the mess we are in.

Cleverley had the nerve to stand up and defend their record back 10 year and the first points he made why it was in a mess was Ukraine. Fcuk off about Ukraine. Brexit is the biggest cause different from any other nation. We all had a pandemic and we all are involved directly or indirectly with Ukraine. But no other nation left the EU except us.

[horsefly 4,300]

19 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yes but whether or not its impractical to rejoin, its about time that he convinced the world that the one bleddy thing the Tories aren't mentioning is Brexit when it comes to explaining the mess we are in.

Cleverley had the nerve to stand up and defend their record back 10 year and the first points he made why it was in a mess was Ukraine. Fcuk off about Ukraine. Brexit is the biggest cause different from any other nation. We all had a pandemic and we all are involved directly or indirectly with Ukraine. But no other nation left the EU except us.

I can't see how that's going to help Labour get elected. Saying on the one hand it's the fault of Brexit but we won't do anything about it is hardly a winning message.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, horsefly said:

I can't see how that's going to help Labour get elected. Saying on the one hand it's the fault of Brexit but we won't do anything about it is hardly a winning message.

Yes, it probably wouldn't but its a long way off to the next election and what he says today will have little or no impact in two years. Whilst The Sunak Kid and Butch Cleverley keep the mantra about Ukraine in the spotlight, it becomes an opportune time to bury the Brexit problem. And in two more years, I doubt many will care. Particularly the extra 30% who vote in GEs.

To be honest, I don't think what he said yesterday is going to boost their election hopes.

[horsefly 4,300]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

To be honest, I don't think what he said yesterday is going to boost their election hopes.

Maybe not! But it was a very wise step in  making sure he controls the narrative rather than his opponents. The Tories will not be able to run the line that Starmer would waste years of precious time re-running the divisive Brexit campaign. The debate re Brexit will concern who can make a better job of dealing with its legacy. Starmer will be able to claim that Labour will make a much better job of forging a constructive relationship with the EU because unlike the Tories it is not a party in hoc to a bunch of MPs with an ideological hatred of Europe.

[sonyc 5,519]

16 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

Exactly.  But by using the Leave slogan "Take back control" Starmer is talking to Brexiteers and is encouraging them to think that devolved control is a benefit of Brexit when there is in fact no connection.  He's distancing himself from Remainers, including those that he most needs - Scottish SNP voters.  Not clever.

Just seen this Benchwarmer. And looking at Horsefly's reply below I don't think I can respond any better as it summarises so well. I'm in agreement that he has left Remainers hanging on the outside.

There's very few so pro EU than me too but I think he is responding to the absolute carnage of this current government - not to mention the stewardship of the last 12 , soon 13 years. We've seen our economy trashed and public services very badly broken and even a fall in life expectancy. He will have to try and respond to these things. It will take a lot of time to turn round the oil tanker too. I would love to have seen him tackle Brexit full on now but electorally it wouldn't play well. He knows it. Give him a couple of years (assuming a Labour victory) and he may get the whole country behind him. So much easier to have that debate and argument when wages, industrial strife, living standards start to rise again rather than against the backdrop of the current situation.

Politics is about mediating on positions and therefore some compromises have to be made. He wants also to appeal to as wide a base as he can. He won't need the remainer vote. In my view he will be given it anyway.

 

[Herman 9,765]

One for you @sonyc 😬

 

[sonyc 5,519]

11 minutes ago, Herman said:

One for you @sonyc 😬

 

Not at all surprising. I wrote to him about Channel 4 and you can imagine his reply. With Davies I will give him one thing - he always replies and gives a substantive response. And I believe he writes them too. Unlike MPs in Norfolk it seems. To read about the diversity posts reminds me of a certain poster here (seldom these days). So typical. The fact remains that the job of government is to fund and it hasn't done enough. It hasn't ever tackled the social care issue despite promising to. May backed off on her dementia tax. One big problem of the NHS is social care. He didn't even respond to that!

Yet, I can't imagine he would get a job in the private sector either! He is a strange fish but as a constituency MP he does at least face up. Some of his views are very odd and contentious. Thankfully I've now got another Tory as my MP (Robbie Moore) after moving. Who knows whilst Shipley may still keep voting Davies in, I may, just may, see a change in the next election.🎊

Edited January 6, 2023 by sonyc
Typo

[benchwarmer 625]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

The next government will inherit a set of crises worse than any in recent living memory. The collapse of the NHS, education, social care, housing, cost of living etc, etc, etc, are all existential issues that will require the most urgent dedication of attention. The idea that Starmer should run his election campaign on a promise to spend the first year of a Labour administration re-running a divisive Brexit referendum, followed by a couple of years negotiating re-entry to the EU and single market (on terms that would inevitably be worse than those we had previously), would be a manifesto every Tory strategist would give their right arm to see Labour commit. It would be a folly up there with Corbyn's granting to Johnson an election that he couldn't have otherwise had.

As much as I would love to see the UK return to the EU fold I sincerely believe the country would not elect Labour if it were to ignore putting its entire effort into addressing the seriously urgent issues affecting their everyday battles for survival. I suspect that there will come a point in recovery when Labour can again make the case for the clear benefits of re-joining the EU, I just don't see that case being electorally plausible for some time, and certainly not before the next general election.

I agree that a second referendum would be unhelpful to put it mildly, but we must avoid buying into the hard Brexit narrative that leaving the EU necessarily means leaving the customs union, single market and EEA too.

Both main parties know that membership of one or more of these organisations would benefit the economy, and for Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted Remain, failing to address this issue can only bring them closer to leaving the UK. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by benchwarmer

[horsefly 4,300]

16 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

I agree that a second referendum would be unhelpful to put it mildly, but we must avoid buying into the hard Brexit narrative that leaving the EU necessarily means leaving the customs union, single market and EEA too.

Both main parties know that membership of one or more of these organisations would benefit the economy, and for Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted Remain, failing to address this issue can only bring them closer to leaving the UK. 

Sadly, of course, we have already eschewed a customs union and/or EEA alternative, and have left the single market. By the time the next GE arrives this will be the well established reality. However, "commitment to making Brexit work" may just give him a chance to develop a genuinely constructive dialogue with the EU such that the case for re-joining something like the single market becomes irresistible. I think that might take some time, but it's a scenario that is not beyond possibility. For electoral purposes Starmer will have to deny he intends joining any of those institutions, but who knows how strong the case might be sometime in the future. I don't think for one minute the resolute nature of his statement at this stage demonstrates an implacable ideological opposition. It is fundamentally about establishing the clarity of purpose necessary in demonstrating Labour's fitness to govern the country at a time of genuine existential crisis. 

As a footnote: I don't think a day passes when at some point I don't experience that, "What the fu*ck were people thinking" moment of despair at the Brexit vote.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

Daily Express

"While Sir Keir's microphone went dead at one point he still appears to have made a better impression than Mr Sunak's five point plan."

That's funny and disturbing at the same time. What a sad state the government is in right now 

[Well b back 3,207]

This is how the government just can’t help lying using Trumpism.

In the meeting taking place today one of their major policies will be discussing as one of ‘ their ‘ policies the setting up of virtual wards. Now for those that may recall I told you about the virtual wards being set up during the last bit of bad covid. For those that don’t remember, let me assure you that currently, virtual wards are being tested to big scales.  
They are even f****** clueless or just lying, or of course both.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

This is how the government just can’t help lying using Trumpism.

In the meeting taking place today one of their major policies will be discussing as one of ‘ their ‘ policies the setting up of virtual wards. Now for those that may recall I told you about the virtual wards being set up during the last bit of bad covid. For those that don’t remember, let me assure you that currently, virtual wards are being tested to big scales.  
They are even f****** clueless or just lying, or of course both.

Virtual also means an essence of truth and morality. I leave it for those who think its a contraption on their face to try and contradict me.

[Herman 9,765]

Now this should be interesting.

https://news.sky.com/story/westminster-accounts-mps-earn-17-1m-on-top-of-their-salaries-since-the-last-election-with-tories-taking-15-4m-12758768

[horsefly 4,300]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Now this should be interesting.

https://news.sky.com/story/westminster-accounts-mps-earn-17-1m-on-top-of-their-salaries-since-the-last-election-with-tories-taking-15-4m-12758768

Over £15m of that £17m went to Tory MPs. I did rather enjoy the bit on the Sky News report which showed John Redwood singing the praises of the internet (Zoom etc) as being a way in which he could work so effectively from home fulfilling his role as an MP and employee for a financial company. I guess he can expect a call from Rees-Bogg sometime soon.

[Herman 9,765]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Over £15m of that £17m went to Tory MPs. I did rather enjoy the bit on the Sky News report which showed John Redwood singing the praises of the internet (Zoom etc) as being a way in which he could work so effectively from home fulfilling his role as an MP and employee for a financial company. I guess he can expect a call from Rees-Bogg sometime soon.

How is Mogg hiding his moneys earned? 

[horsefly 4,300]

10 minutes ago, Herman said:

How is Mogg hiding his moneys earned? 

The hand of God!

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Who in their right mind pays a fortune for Tessie May to bore you to death?

[horsefly 4,300]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Who in their right mind pays a fortune for Tessie May to bore you to death?

Apparently the Saudi regime for one. The very same regime she (as PM) banned her ministers from visiting because of its human rights record. 

[Captain Holt 522]

They're going to win the next election, the plebs will forgive and forget when the sun and the mail start pushing around election time. We are a country of brainless morons.