Sack Farke Now?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Just now, Mason 47 said:

Did the rest of your post fall off there?

Yes actually haha

[Midlands Yellow 3,984]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We aren't doing anything special.

We just had a good crop of youngsters, like we did in the 90's, and now we've got a few people who think we are Ajax. 

Cash in on our assets (which I'm sure we'll do soon) and the similarities with the Megson/Hamilton/Rioch years are startling with the constant churn of average players from the continent with a few coming good.

Rupp, Drmic, Duda, all sh*t. That's the latest three. 

There is nothing more to "the project" other than refunding an academy which had to recover from a decade of neglect from the late 90's to the point where McNally took over. We had a very good academy before Delia closed the satellite's. 

Webber has been able to afford this constant churn of dross like Heise, Franke, Husband, Raggett, Srbeny, Passlack because he walked into a club with almost £60m worth of talent to cash in on. A very fortunate set of circumstances. 

I've asked you about 10 times to explain what you believe to be "the project" and, well, you don't really seem to know. If it is simply to try and produce more of our own players then I'm afraid I don't see how that sets us apart. 

If it is to try and move up the published lists of academy productivity rankings then that is great, but that's from a base point of starting behind Coventry and Leeds. 

Our model seems to amount to produce more top level players to help ensure we are self sufficient and try and get value on the transfer market for first team players. Don't most clubs have similar aims? 

Rupp, Heise and Drmic.... are we getting value on the transfer market? Or are we loading ourselves up with deadwood again?

If we are the new Ajax then trophies are on the horizon. 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

I don't want Farke sacked despite the fact I think he's had a really disappointing season in terms of the tactics and some of the selections this season plus the failure to resolve defensive issues.

I don't want Webber out either.

I have no desire for yet another re-build - we need to carry on down the path we have chosen which served us well last season.

I suppose my doubts about the whole "project" really is how do we get to this position that many seem to assume will happen, whereby we go back up to the premier league better equipped to stay up? I suppose Farke learning and improving his tactics is one way and also perhaps not having such horrendous luck with injuries. But be under no illusion we will lose several of our best players this summer. Are we going to have a better side next season than we had last year when we won the championship? Are we going to get promoted with a better striker than Pukki or with a better attacking midfielder than Aarons or indeed a better pair of fullbacks?

I think that even if we lose to 6 or 7 of our players likely to attract bids/attention (which I would very much hope is not realistic) then we will have enough in the squad to challenge at the top end next season. A defence of Byram, Hanley, Zimm/Klose and A.N Other might even be more solid. But I can't see us going up with a better team than last time or having any more resources to compete should we get there than we did this time and in a worst case scenario (and we all know how things can go wrong in the championship) we don't get promoted and the team gets gradually weakened.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

29 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

11 mins now.

 

24 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

7 mins and counting

 

Furlough getting to you? 

[hogesar 9,671]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

I don't want Farke sacked despite the fact I think he's had a really disappointing season in terms of the tactics and some of the selections this season plus the failure to resolve defensive issues.

I don't want Webber out either.

I have no desire for yet another re-build - we need to carry on down the path we have chosen which served us well last season.

I suppose my doubts about the whole "project" really is how do we get to this position that many seem to assume will happen, whereby we go back up to the premier league better equipped to stay up? I suppose Farke learning and improving his tactics is one way and also perhaps not having such horrendous luck with injuries. But be under no illusion we will lose several of our best players this summer. Are we going to have a better side next season than we had last year when we won the championship? Are we going to get promoted with a better striker than Pukki or with a better attacking midfielder than Aarons or indeed a better pair of fullbacks?

I think that even if we lose to 6 or 7 of our players likely to attract bids/attention (which I would very much hope is not realistic) then we will have enough in the squad to challenge at the top end next season. A defence of Byram, Hanley, Zimm/Klose and A.N Other might even be more solid. But I can't see us going up with a better team than last time or having any more resources to compete should we get there than we did this time and in a worst case scenario (and we all know how things can go wrong in the championship) we don't get promoted and the team gets gradually weakened.

What, you mean apart from the parachute payments and the likely 60-100m additional income if we were to lose all our best players? And i'm being conservative?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

1 hour ago, Mason 47 said:

The project is to establish Norwich City long-term as a regular Premier League club.

We are doing this by investing in the youth side, buying a great many young prospects in the hopes one or two turn into a Maddison or a Godfrey and cash a big profit. This money will then be used to build a side of more established players capable of sustaining a Premier League existence. I believe there's also a 'moneyball' factor in our recruitment where we try and find good players others have dismissed and get them firing again.

I think the hard part for most fans is that although it would be grand, Norwich City evolving into a PL team was never, ever going to be with Ben, Max and Jamal playing in defence. We're playing a much longer game than that. 

We must be the only business in the world for whom part of the strategy of trying to establish yourself at a level or in a market involves getting yourself relegated from that level/market without really trying to stay there. The best way to establish ourselves as a premier league club is to stay in the premier league because there is absolutely no guarantee that we will get back there as many seem to just assume. 

So whilst I get the strategy with buying promising young players to try and ensure we have a conveyor belt of talent, I would still have preferred for us to have given it more of a crack this season. 

[king canary 7,606]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Webber has been able to afford this constant churn of dross like Heise, Franke, Husband, Raggett, Srbeny, Passlack because he walked into a club with almost £60m worth of talent to cash in on. A very fortunate set of circumstances.

I, in part, agree with you saying that the 'project' part of what we're doing can be overplayed by some on here. However the above is a hugely one eyed way of looking at Webber's record.

Yes he walked into a club that had a few decent players coming through the acdaemy but...

1) He appointed a Head Coach who was willing to use and develop those players- absolutely not a given.

2) He supplemented those players with some amazing deals for talents last season- a 30 goal striker on a free, a first choice keeper on a free, an unknown playmaker from the Spanish second tier for minimal outlay. You can get away with signing a few **** fullbacks if you pull off miracles like that.

[Mason 47 1,379]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

We must be the only business in the world for whom part of the strategy of trying to establish yourself at a level or in a market involves getting yourself relegated from that level/market without really trying to stay there. The best way to establish ourselves as a premier league club is to stay in the premier league because there is absolutely no guarantee that we will get back there as many seem to just assume. 

So whilst I get the strategy with buying promising young players to try and ensure we have a conveyor belt of talent, I would still have preferred for us to have given it more of a crack this season. 

For me, if you take emotion out of it, the odds were going to be against us staying up this year unless we spent upwards of 30-40 million on proven PL players- and even then it isn't a guarantee. Evidently we haven't taken that risk- probably couldn't.

It's certainly not a given that we will come back up, no, but the unexciting truth of the matter is our club will be in a much healthier environment as a result of these decisions.

Whatever the ulterior arguments are here, bottom line is I can't see that sacking the manager is going to make us any better off. 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

What, you mean apart from the parachute payments and the likely 60-100m additional income if we were to lose all our best players? And i'm being conservative?

Our parachute payments are likely to be reduced due to coronavirus. We mat have no ticket revenue for a significant chunk of the season. Ok we may be better off than many other championship clubs but I will bet you that the clubs will say they have to sell players to cover the financial hit once this miserable season is out of the way and we are confirmed as relegated.

Yes we should be able to sell players for some decent money but we are not going to be able to buy better players to join us in the championship than the players we will be losing. We didn't buy any players this summer who were better than what we already have and we will have been offering premier league wages.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

7 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

We must be the only business in the world for whom part of the strategy of trying to establish yourself at a level or in a market involves getting yourself relegated from that level/market without really trying to stay there. The best way to establish ourselves as a premier league club is to stay in the premier league because there is absolutely no guarantee that we will get back there as many seem to just assume. 

So whilst I get the strategy with buying promising young players to try and ensure we have a conveyor belt of talent, I would still have preferred for us to have given it more of a crack this season. 

We wave goodbye to prob £100m upon relegation only to have to go and sell probably £50m worth of talent again to fund the next promotion. 

This is why it is odd that we wouldn't spend £30m trying to upgrade the squad and give staying up a real go. 

If that £30m didn't provide the required difference (I think a younger Tettey would have made a world of difference) then you do exactly the same upon relegation, sell to claw this investment back. 

 

[Mason 47 1,379]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We wave goodbye to prob £100m upon relegation only to have to go and sell probably £50m worth of talent again to fund the next promotion. 

This is why it is odd that we wouldn't spend £30m trying to upgrade the squad and give staying up a real go. 

If that £30m didn't provide the required difference (I think a younger Tettey would have made a world of difference) then you do exactly the same upon relegation, sell to claw this investment back. 

 

It could have made a difference, but you can't buy a guarantee. Aston Villa spent around €75 million on defensive midfield and centre backs alone- and have conceded more goals than we have.

It's tough to take in the modern world of instant gratification, but we didn't 'give it a real go' this season to make it more likely we can do so next time. 

[king canary 7,606]

6 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

It could have made a difference, but you can't buy a guarantee. Aston Villa spent around €75 million on defensive midfield and centre backs alone- and have conceded more goals than we have.

It's tough to take in the modern world of instant gratification, but we didn't 'give it a real go' this season to make it more likely we can do so next time. 

I think it is understandable some sit in the 'believe that when I see it' camp.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

I have many things to say on this subject. Firstly, for anyone who still isn't quite sure about the 'project', our 'journo du jour' Connor Southwell did an interview with Webber for MFW back in February 2019. This neatly summarises the holistic approach to the club that turned it around since he took over in 2017: https://trainingground.guru/articles/stuart-webber-climb-of-the-canaries

Secondly, we know Webber is likely to leave at the end of his contract in 2022. This means he has two years left to complete his work here; I am convinced that he is a ruthless enough operator that he would dispense with Farke if he felt there was a better head coach who could get more out of these players without having to totally overhaul the playing style. Webber is a career man and will do whatever it takes to be successful.

Yes, Farke has tactical shortcomings, and some of those have been brought front and centre due to the exponentially higher level of opposition (of both players and coaching staff) in the PL. I would argue that we have a lot more to lose than to gain by rolling the managerial dice at this juncture; I think it's more likely that Farke's head might be turned by a Bundesliga job in the summer, possibly replacing the failing Wagner at Schalke. He'd be dealing with bigger budgets, 50k+ fans every week, and the real possibility of Champions League football inside a couple of years. That would surely be tempting.

Personally, I would be hugely surprised and disappointed if the club chose to dismiss Farke between seasons. Of course he will be expected to succeed in the Championship next season, but to deny him the opportunity to do that would be grossly unfair given the paucity of budget he's had to work with.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

34 minutes ago, king canary said:

I, in part, agree with you saying that the 'project' part of what we're doing can be overplayed by some on here. However the above is a hugely one eyed way of looking at Webber's record.

Yes he walked into a club that had a few decent players coming through the acdaemy but...

1) He appointed a Head Coach who was willing to use and develop those players- absolutely not a given.

2) He supplemented those players with some amazing deals for talents last season- a 30 goal striker on a free, a first choice keeper on a free, an unknown playmaker from the Spanish second tier for minimal outlay. You can get away with signing a few **** fullbacks if you pull off miracles like that.

Yes but how long can he dine out on that great summer transfer window, when the last three transfer windows have been very poor? 

That's what I said up thread, I wouldn't be worried about 20th if I hadn't lost confidence in our decision making with transfers. Or rather, the success rate. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

29 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

It could have made a difference, but you can't buy a guarantee. Aston Villa spent around €75 million on defensive midfield and centre backs alone- and have conceded more goals than we have.

It's tough to take in the modern world of instant gratification, but we didn't 'give it a real go' this season to make it more likely we can do so next time. 

Right so, we sign a Tettey replacement in the summer, we get relegated. We still have a Tettey replacement to show for it, one who is bedded into the squad and knows his team mates.

Or we don't sign a Tettey replacement, we get relegated. We still need to sign a Tettey replacement, only we'll find it a bit harder to attract talent as a second tier side and that player may not make an instant impact in August as he's likely come from overseas and needs time to adapt to English football.

This isn't "instant gratification", its identifying a clear need to recruit for a specific position and then filling that position. Your thinking is the short term way, my one a player gets a year to develop and embed himself, like Vrancic's average first season.

Sorry but what could possibly have been lost by signing a player that everybody can see that we desperately need, which is a successor to the great Sir Alex? 

Alex Tettey is 34. 

We need a new Alex Tettey.

We need a new Alex Tettey whether we are in this league or the league below. 

What was stopping us?

Edited June 25, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Sacking Farke now would be a complete disaster though OP.

He's the best chance we have of convincing our best talent to stay beyond the summer.

Keeping hold of our nucleaus is essential to our chances of getting back up next year. I'm talking about players like Krul, Zimmermann, Pukki, the spine. 

So no, don't sack Farke. But we do need to back him financially and get the summer window right otherwise he may decide to sack us.

Sacking Farke would be a convenient way for Webber to pass the buck, make him the fall guy.

What we really need is for Webber to get the transfer business right in the summer. If he doesn't then we need to be talking about him and the entire footballing structure, not making the head coach the fall guy.

Edited June 25, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

Careful what you wish for. Farke has brought through youth and developed them into assets that the club will benefit from, i am sure he will continue to do this. He has had one season in the top flight and to be honest i would give him a 5/10 but you could say the same about Warnock. Let him continue doing what he is good at next season. There will have to be a significant squad rebuild as our young assets will be sold and others older players moved on. We need good championship players next season because that is where we will be playing and even if we go up again nothing will greatly change unless we have significant outside investment which is probably unlikely. Enjoy the Championship, make sure we do not finish up in league 1 and enjoy the short visits to the PL when they come along

[jaberry2 550]

Very frustrated with Farke the last couple of games due to formations and wrong selections in my view. He has shown complete naivety. Like others have said he is still a reasonably young manager and should learn. The last games remaining all being played like cup finals was utter nonsense. We are going out on a whimper once again, which is a real shame and an embarrassment. 

He does however deserve another chance to get us up, if he indeed stays put.

It may be time to get rid of the likes of Tettey and start investing in players coming through like Sitti. Its quite clear our central midfielders aren't up to scratch, exposing an already fragile defence and the areas we need to improve on next season, albeit not playing against such good teams.

Edited June 25, 2020 by jaberry2

[Mason 47 1,379]

18 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Right so, we sign a Tettey replacement in the summer, we get relegated. We still have a Tettey replacement to show for it, one who is bedded into the squad and knows his team mates.

Or we don't sign a Tettey replacement, we get relegated. We still need to sign a Tettey replacement, only we'll find it a bit harder to attract talent as a second tier side and that player may not make an instant impact in August as he's likely come from overseas and needs time to adapt to English football.

This isn't "instant gratification", its identifying a clear need to recruit for a specific position and then filling that position. Your thinking is the short term way, my one a player gets a year to develop and embed himself, like Vrancic's average first season.

Sorry but what could possibly have been lost by signing a player that everybody can see that we desperately need, which is a successor to the great Sir Alex? 

Alex Tettey is 34. 

We need a new Alex Tettey.

We need a new Alex Tettey whether we are in this league or the league below. 

What was stopping us?

I'm not disagreeing that our recruitment for the Premier League was poor. In fact, I've been quote vocal about it.

The short answer is, none of us know why that player wasn't signed. I imagine we couldn't find one that was close enough on wages & fee to represent any value, which is why Amadou rocked up on loan. Still not really clear for me what happened there.

You can't just drop stacks of cash on players and say 'we can just sell them if we go down'. That's how you end up with Steven Naismith.

[king canary 7,606]

31 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

I'm not disagreeing that our recruitment for the Premier League was poor. In fact, I've been quote vocal about it.

The short answer is, none of us know why that player wasn't signed. I imagine we couldn't find one that was close enough on wages & fee to represent any value, which is why Amadou rocked up on loan. Still not really clear for me what happened there.

You can't just drop stacks of cash on players and say 'we can just sell them if we go down'. That's how you end up with Steven Naismith.

Not really- you end up with Naismith when you sign players who are 29/30 for high money and wages. Webber isn't that stupid and short termist.

[Canary dwarf 221]

The sign of a top manager is getting the best from your players,is farke really doing that now? 😂

[king canary 7,606]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Yes but how long can he dine out on that great summer transfer window, when the last three transfer windows have been very poor? 

That's what I said up thread, I wouldn't be worried about 20th if I hadn't lost confidence in our decision making with transfers. Or rather, the success rate. 

I don't think he's just dining out on that though.

The January before hand he moved early to get Onel and Leitner in, both who played important roles in our promotion, along with signings from his first summer panning out longer term, like Vrancic, Trybull and Zimmerman.

To say 'the last three windows' is a bit unfair also as in that January window he only signed us a backup left back because we didn't really need anything else. Heise not proving to be all that wasn't exactly a big issue.

This summer has been poor no doubt- but January was a bit of a rock and a hard place in terms of who you bring in- we clearly didn't have the budget to go all out for staying up and it could be that Rupp proves valuable next season. Duda has been a waste though.

We also need to see how the recruitment of Sitti and McCallum particularly play out next season- those two were clearly bought in to be involved. 

[Uncle Fred 526]

Would prefer a new manager with a proven track record of delivery, it would have to be Chris Hughton with Ian Culverhouse for me a virtually guaranteed management formula 

[Mason 47 1,379]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not really- you end up with Naismith when you sign players who are 29/30 for high money and wages. Webber isn't that stupid and short termist.

Probably more accurate to say that's how you end up like Sunderland, in hindsight

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

Wonderful stuff, you’re so funny 😕

[Uncle Fred 526]

2 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

Wonderful stuff, you’re so funny 😕

Ssssshhhhhhh 

[king canary 7,606]

2 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Probably more accurate to say that's how you end up like Sunderland, in hindsight

I think Sunderland had a fairly unique set of circumstances that show the weakness of the traditional 'manager controls everything model.' 

They would bring in a manager for short term success, give him a long contract and let him spend. When he inevitably got sacked 9 months later, the new manager would come in, want to bring in 5 or 6 of his own players while they couldn't shift the ones the old manager wanted, so on and so forth. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Oh right, well I hope you didn't lose any sleep over being left hanging. How many times did you press refresh? 

Of course not, silly man. I dont press refresh as when you answered( which of course you never did) the forum would have notified me . I have noticed that when you are posting you usually quote the person you are responding to. .... its not rocket science. Enough of this evasion of a straight answer shoite, would you care to tell us not very well informed minions who you would put in your first eleven given your comments the other day.  Like I said, it would be very interesting ......indeed.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Of course not, silly man. I dont press refresh as when you answered( which of course you never did) the forum would have notified me . I have noticed that when you are posting you usually quote the person you are responding to. .... its not rocket science. Enough of this evasion of a straight answer shoite, would you care to tell us not very well informed minions who you would put in your first eleven given your comments the other day.  Like I said, it would be very interesting ......indeed.

Mate I have no idea what you are going on about, still don't know what post you are talking about, but to get this upset that some randomer didn't reply to you on a forum indicates that you may have some severe underlying emotional problems which you perhaps need to attend to. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by TeemuVanBasten

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

35 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Mate I have no idea what you are going on about, still don't know what post you are talking about, but to get this upset that some randomer didn't reply to you on a forum indicates that you may have some severe underlying emotional problems which you perhaps need to attend to. 

First, not upset, just looking for a straight answer to a straight question.

Second, couldnt be a mate of someone who wont answer a straight question, just question the emotional stability of the asker. Childish.

Third, dont try the old 'getting upset at some randomer' garbage . We all can see by your online persona that your opinions are way too important to be described as 'some randomer'....im pretty sure you secretly agree with me on that point.

Finally, give us your line up , what's the biggie?