Big Vince 318 Posted June 14, 2019 Now that the club is back in the EPL the issue of the stadium being far too small once again comes under scrutiny. Supply stands no chance of matching demand once again and the Canary Board is noticeably reticent in doing anything about it. It seems to me there are various options that could be taken up without jeopardising the long-term financial viability of the club: 1. The Suffolk Socialists could sell the club to wealthier backers who will spend a lot of money on football and infrastructure. 2. If the club is due to get £170m over the next 3 years then £10m per year could be fence-ringed to get up to the £30m required to replace the City stand with a new 12-13,000 seater stand to get the capacity up to 35,000. 3. The club has just had a successful bond scheme to do the training ground. Why not try something similar to do the City Stand? 4. A combination of 2 and 3 above. 5. A combination of 2 and 3 above plus a modest bank loan. People on this board have previously stated that extra capacity would help close the financial gap with some of the more modest EPL rivals, thus increasing City's competitiveness at this level. It would also be nice to think that the east of England would have a suitable venue that is certain to be chosen when England finally gets to host a World Cup in 2030. The Board needs to stop being so timid and finally bite this bullet. Bums off missing seats makes no financial sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted June 14, 2019 "Bums off missing seats" mmm..... Struggling to get my head round that at the moment Vince. The ladies toilets spring to mind! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,395 Posted June 14, 2019 We don't need 35k capacity because we wouldn't fill it on any regular basis even with long term Premier League membership. The economics just don't stack up. Perhaps getting the capacity up to 30k/32k might be logistically possible in the future but I'm not expecting it to happen in any realistically medium term timeframe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted June 14, 2019 Sorting out the ladies toilets might be welcomed by quite a lot of our supporters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,395 Posted June 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Van wink said: Sorting out the ladies toilets might be welcomed by quite a lot of our supporters. A toilet duck and a bottle of Domestos shouldn't break the bank. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivvo 257 Posted June 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, ricardo said: We don't need 35k capacity because we wouldn't fill it on any regular basis even with long term Premier League membership. The economics just don't stack up. Perhaps getting the capacity up to 30k/32k might be logistically possible in the future but I'm not expecting it to happen in any realistically medium term timeframe. Unfortunately long term premier league membership for a club our size is likely to result in mid table to flirting with relegation season on and out, not sexy enough to fill an enlarged stadium in my view, of course we could survive and prosper ah la Watford, Wolves and Leicester. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeiranShikari 1,420 Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) Ben Kensell touched upon the topic in an interview the other day. Basically they review it on an annual basis, they would like to do it but only when it makes sense financially. Edited June 14, 2019 by KeiranShikari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shefcanary 2,410 Posted June 14, 2019 Big Vince In (near 100%l sensible post for once (point 1 is truly wishful thinking) . Peace breaks out? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,395 Posted June 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rivvo said: Unfortunately long term premier league membership for a club our size is likely to result in mid table to flirting with relegation season on and out, not sexy enough to fill an enlarged stadium in my view, of course we could survive and prosper ah la Watford, Wolves and Leicester. Apart from the big six or seven everyone else is destined for the exit at some time or other. Look at the history, we are one of twenty plus clubs that constantly recycle. Nothing terrible in that but it is as well to accept the reality if you want to enjoy the future. Hopefully we will linger a bit longer than normal this time but I am not counting on it. There's another Championship promotion season somewhere not too far down the line to look forward to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,395 Posted June 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, KeiranShikari said: Ben Kensell touched upon the topic in an interview the other day. Basically they review it on an annual basis, they would like to do it but only when it makes sense financially. That's code for " Somewhere over the Rainbow" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rivvo 257 Posted June 14, 2019 Yep, that’s about the size of it Ricardo, buckle up and enjoy the ride. Anyway I’m off to the church for some fence ringing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 4,750 Posted June 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, Van wink said: Sorting out the ladies toilets might be welcomed by quite a lot of our supporters. For goodness sake don't mention sanitory towels. 😜 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,395 Posted June 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Rivvo said: Yep, that’s about the size of it Ricardo, buckle up and enjoy the ride. Anyway I’m off to the church for some fence ringing. Don't be too noisey, Mrs R is watching the telly.😀 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ricardo 7,395 Posted June 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said: For goodness sake don't mention sanitory towels. 😜 It's a signof the times when this sort of thing gets raised at AGM's Til. I blame the bog roll accountants. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Redders Right Foot 22 Posted June 14, 2019 10 minutes ago, ricardo said: Apart from the big six or seven everyone else is destined for the exit at some time or other. Look at the history, we are one of twenty plus clubs that constantly recycle. Nothing terrible in that but it is as well to accept the reality if you want to enjoy the future. Hopefully we will linger a bit longer than normal this time but I am not counting on it. There's another Championship promotion season somewhere not too far down the line to look forward to. The life of not being a glory hunter is sure fun 😁 😭 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,334 Posted June 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said: For goodness sake don't mention sanitory towels. 😜 Crikey!!! Years of filling out forms and you still can't spell sanitary. I would have thought that word would have cropped up a few times during your inspections of N Walsham and Wroxhams train station toilets. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeiranShikari 1,420 Posted June 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, ricardo said: That's code for " Somewhere over the Rainbow" Pretty much, yeah. He used the phrase master plan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 4,750 Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said: Crikey!!! Years of filling out forms and you still can't spell sanitary. I would have thought that word would have cropped up a few times during your inspections of N Walsham and Wroxhams train station toilets. That is the second post where you have made reference to train stations when attempting to have a snidey little dig at me.Billy Bragg and fare dodging last time so maybe you could explain further because it is lost on me ? Edited June 14, 2019 by TIL 1010 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,995 Posted June 14, 2019 Leicester have averaged around 32,000 since promotion last. In the Championship their attendances were below ours every season in the last decade plus . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,562 Posted June 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Big Vince said: Now that the club is back in the EPL the issue of the stadium being far too small once again comes under scrutiny. Supply stands no chance of matching demand once again and the Canary Board is noticeably reticent in doing anything about it. It seems to me there are various options that could be taken up without jeopardising the long-term financial viability of the club: 1. The Suffolk Socialists could sell the club to wealthier backers who will spend a lot of money on football and infrastructure. 2. If the club is due to get £170m over the next 3 years then £10m per year could be fence-ringed to get up to the £30m required to replace the City stand with a new 12-13,000 seater stand to get the capacity up to 35,000. 3. The club has just had a successful bond scheme to do the training ground. Why not try something similar to do the City Stand? 4. A combination of 2 and 3 above. 5. A combination of 2 and 3 above plus a modest bank loan. People on this board have previously stated that extra capacity would help close the financial gap with some of the more modest EPL rivals, thus increasing City's competitiveness at this level. It would also be nice to think that the east of England would have a suitable venue that is certain to be chosen when England finally gets to host a World Cup in 2030. The Board needs to stop being so timid and finally bite this bullet. Bums off missing seats makes no financial sense. Since there is no serious transfer gossip… Six years ago Alan Bowkett came up with the following calculations. To rebuild the main stand with a capacity of 12,000 to increase overall capacity to 35,000 would cost £30m. The necessary loan would be paid off at the rate of £2.5m a year over 20 years, putting the total cost at £50m. And to cover that £2.5m a year from ticket sales the new stand would need to be 94 per cent sold out. There is an immediate problem, which is that Bowkett’s figure of 35,000 was in a direct quote, but the BBC reported the same financial figures, but for an increase in capacity only to 32,000. Which would make more sense to me, in terms of the extra seats we might reasonably expect to fill, or mainly fill. Actually I would argue for 31,000, but then. Possibly Bowkett said the wrong figure, or the reporter got it wrong. My suspicion is the BBC figure was correct. Either way, this was said, and Bowkett stressed this in his remarks, at a time when the mantra was “Every penny goes into the footballing side.” Either to keep us in the Premier League or to get back there. Supposedly that attitude has been dumped in favour of a more financially circumspect approach. Particularly in terms of not getting lumbered with expensive long-term contracts. Now that is not mainly aimed at providing money for stadium expansion, but it might be partly used that way. A possible scenario is that despite not spending to stay up, we do, into a second season, giving us three seasons of parachute payments if we get relegated. All enabling us to put some millions away over at least five seasons for rebuilding, reducing the amount we eventually have to borrow. Or indeed there might be anotherr bond issue, or something of that kind.. Assuming the BBC figure of 5,000 extra seats is right, once built, as Bowkett, said filling them would bring in revenue to help pay off the debt. Now his figures assumed all the debt would be paid off that way, needing close to 100 per cent usage. But that would not have to be the case, given the new financial attitude. This is extremely rough and ready, but inflate Bowkett’s figure of £2.5m a year repayments up to £3m. With a main stand season ticket of, say, £650 a year (which does not allow for inevitable inflation) you would only need to have an average of 3,000 of those seats taken up a season to raise £2m. I am not suggesting this is imminent, but if we were to stay up for at least a second season then the numbers, particularly given the new financial attitude, might just start to look doable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barbe bleu 827 Posted June 14, 2019 Great post by Big Vince. Build it and they will come. Let's not settle for what we have, let's build (pun intended) on it for the greater glory of the club, the city and the region Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,322 Posted June 14, 2019 I think the current membership/supply and demand situation shows it’s important we do expand the capacity if we are able to stay up for a couple of seasons. its going to be more or less impossible to take my sons to Carrow Road next season. And I’ve ditched the junior canaries membership because it’s not worth it with the price increase and reduction in chances of actually getting tickets. If this situation continues long term it will damage the club. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lappinitup 629 Posted June 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said: Build it and they will come. A few seasons back in the Championship and they won't. In fact, a few seasons struggling in the Prem and they will thin out. For sure.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,189 Posted June 14, 2019 Here is an article relating to current/proposed/desired extensions (and new builds) to current grounds. Can´t verify the accuracy of all the details, but it feels about right I´m sure you will all be aware of the proposals detailed for NCFC in this article, but the Ipswich section is interesting Football Ground Guide Developments "Ipswich Town The Club would at some point like to re-develop the Cobbold Stand and boost the capacity of the ground to 40,000. However, this is unlikely to happen unless the Club established itself once again as a Premier League Club." 🤪 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,539 Posted June 14, 2019 31 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: I think the current membership/supply and demand situation shows it’s important we do expand the capacity if we are able to stay up for a couple of seasons. its going to be more or less impossible to take my sons to Carrow Road next season. And I’ve ditched the junior canaries membership because it’s not worth it with the price increase and reduction in chances of actually getting tickets. If this situation continues long term it will damage the club. Nothing ever continues long-term Jim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thirsty Lizard 3,165 Posted June 14, 2019 1 hour ago, nutty nigel said: Nothing ever continues long-term Jim. Dinosaurs might take issue with that comment Nutty - they roamed the earth for 165 million years you know! Some of them could even remember when Ipswich won the League. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,539 Posted June 14, 2019 I can't begin to comprehend such a long period of time! In football we go from "Norwich will never play in the PL with this model and people won't renew their season tickets." To "we need to expand the stadium to fit in thousands more fans" in less than a year. Imagine the global warming with those creatures farting around the world for 165 million years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barbe bleu 827 Posted June 15, 2019 There appears, even from this total non representative board, to be a divide between season ticket holders and those that do not have one. Season tickets holders say "dont bother, we'll probably not fill it after a couple of years so its money down the drain, and anyway I dont need more than one seat" Non holders say "I wish I could go to see the top games with my family". Club probably has to decide which group it wants to please most. I dont see this as an economic question. Construction costs are not a big proportion of the income well get over a 5-10 year period, even if we fall back into the second tier. Expansion means more credibility, more attraction to potential players, increased prestige and better accessibility. Non expansion means we can afford Naismith. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,562 Posted June 15, 2019 12 hours ago, PurpleCanary said: Since there is no serious transfer gossip… Six years ago Alan Bowkett came up with the following calculations. To rebuild the main stand with a capacity of 12,000 to increase overall capacity to 35,000 would cost £30m. The necessary loan would be paid off at the rate of £2.5m a year over 20 years, putting the total cost at £50m. And to cover that £2.5m a year from ticket sales the new stand would need to be 94 per cent sold out. There is an immediate problem, which is that Bowkett’s figure of 35,000 was in a direct quote, but the BBC reported the same financial figures, but for an increase in capacity only to 32,000. Which would make more sense to me, in terms of the extra seats we might reasonably expect to fill, or mainly fill. Actually I would argue for 31,000, but then. Possibly Bowkett said the wrong figure, or the reporter got it wrong. My suspicion is the BBC figure was correct. Either way, this was said, and Bowkett stressed this in his remarks, at a time when the mantra was “Every penny goes into the footballing side.” Either to keep us in the Premier League or to get back there. Supposedly that attitude has been dumped in favour of a more financially circumspect approach. Particularly in terms of not getting lumbered with expensive long-term contracts. Now that is not mainly aimed at providing money for stadium expansion, but it might be partly used that way. A possible scenario is that despite not spending to stay up, we do, into a second season, giving us three seasons of parachute payments if we get relegated. All enabling us to put some millions away over at least five seasons for rebuilding, reducing the amount we eventually have to borrow. Or indeed there might be anotherr bond issue, or something of that kind.. Assuming the BBC figure of 5,000 extra seats is right, once built, as Bowkett, said filling them would bring in revenue to help pay off the debt. Now his figures assumed all the debt would be paid off that way, needing close to 100 per cent usage. But that would not have to be the case, given the new financial attitude. This is extremely rough and ready, but inflate Bowkett’s figure of £2.5m a year repayments up to £3m. With a main stand season ticket of, say, £650 a year (which does not allow for inevitable inflation) you would only need to have an average of 3,000 of those seats taken up a season to raise £2m. I am not suggesting this is imminent, but if we were to stay up for at least a second season then the numbers, particularly given the new financial attitude, might just start to look doable. This was what he said at the time; “Now the key thing for us is staying in the Premier League, what keeps us in the Premier League is investment in what I term the software, back office, football management, football players, and I cannot guarantee that we are going to be in the Premier League for the next 20 years, no one can. So that’s the big question we have to face ourselves with and I think having just taken a huge burden away from the football club, probably the board would prefer to invest in the software rather than the hardware at the moment and that’s what we are doing.” Share this post Link to post Share on other sites