The Positive Brexit Thread

[BigFish 1,987]

For those of you still bothering with Swindo it is worth remembering Jonathan Swift:

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."

[SwindonCanary 455]

I REPEAT Just remember, Remoaners are not cleverer or more educated or more progressive than anyone else. They are simply twisted and bitter little children who are having a prolonged tantrum because they didn't get their own way.

[Barbe bleu 826]

1 hour ago, NFN FC said:

£6.50!!!! Ffs 

I for one think a free drinks policy is  highly irresponsible.  £6.50 for a cocktail won’t stop anyone enjoying the fun, of which there is plenty to go around, but will perhaps prompt people to think of their health.

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

5 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I for one think a free drinks policy is  highly irresponsible.  £6.50 for a cocktail won’t stop anyone enjoying the fun, of which there is plenty to go around, but will perhaps prompt people to think of their health.

How many Euro's is that? One or two.  Hard currency only soon looking at the markets today. 

[Surfer 1,547]

Ok well that’s a manifesto - we will be able to measure Brexit against those goals - fair? 

[A Load of Squit 5,164]

47 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

I REPEAT Just remember, Remoaners are not cleverer or more educated or more progressive than anyone else. They are simply twisted and bitter little children who are having a prolonged tantrum because they didn't get their own way.

You repeated the one with the error in it.

There's a metaphor for Brexit! 😀

 

[sonyc 5,518]

42 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

You repeated the one with the error in it.

There's a metaphor for Brexit! 😀

 

From a poster whose anagram might read...

"Con winds a yarn"

And I feel I have been wound a long story over all these pro Brexit posts this last year

Edited September 10, 2020 by sonyc

[SwindonCanary 455]

They are simply twisted and bitter little children who are having a prolonged tantrum because they didn't get their own way.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

The festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, AKA festival  of Brexit, first proposed by  Theresa May  is due in 2022, virus willing 

The organisers have begun their work  and the first details are announced Here

As a Brexit voter, what do you think @SwindonCanary ? Worth going?

[Jools 584]

9 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

Are you sure about that?

How recently have you informed yourself about the advance of the federalist ideal?

How aware are you of the true intentions of the Franco-Germany hegemony?

Have you properly taken into account the cost of the institution that calls itself "Brussels?" Everything from massive and unaccountable costs inputs which make our own MP's scandal of a few years ago seem like the local vicar pocketing the cake money from the village fete to the nonsense of hundreds of MP's, secretaries and all the others who sit comfortably on that particular ill-designed band wagon regularly upping sticks to move to Strasbourg from Brussels and back again  ... bothy expensively maintained buildings with a constant money sucking need?

Have you taken a great deal of interest recently in the recent in-fighting about financing the PIGS countries due to their high Covid infections? Did you like the hastily convened compromise that seemed to leave nobody that happy? Or the massive debt that the "newer" Eastern European entrants have been building up even prior to the pandemic. What did you think of the Dutch attitude to this?

Have you considered that the UK's contribution will escalate enormously in order to finance all this (if ever possible) whilst Germany benefits from a 50% reduction in the VAT rate it has always received  in order to assist it's export potential?

I could go on (and on.)

I'm not getting at you, I promise. Just asking and would appreciate your views on these very significant matters.

 

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/14/summary-of-allowances

Refreshing to get a sensible post, BroadstairsR 👍

Edited September 10, 2020 by Jools

[Jools 584]

The EU has published a statement following an extraordinary meeting of the EU-UK Joint Committee. Guido has pulled out the key excerpts:

“Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič stated that if the Bill were to be adopted, it would constitute an extremely serious violation of the Withdrawal Agreement and of international law.

“Violating the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement would break international law, undermine trust and put at risk the ongoing future relationship negotiations.

“Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič called on the UK government to withdraw these measures from the draft Bill in the shortest time possible and in any case by the end of the month. He stated that by putting forward this Bill, the UK has seriously damaged trust between the EU and the UK.

“He reminded the UK government that the Withdrawal Agreement contains a number of mechanisms and legal remedies to address violations of the legal obligations contained in the text – which the European Union will not be shy in using.

Read the statement in full here.

The UK has published its own legal position on the Internal Market Bill, resting in part on Gina Miller’s famous activist court case which asserted the sovereignty of Parliament. Top trolling by Dom… 😀👍

“treaty obligations only become binding to the extent that they are enshrined in domestic legislation. Whether to enact or repeal legislation, and the content of that legislation, is for Parliament and Parliament alone. This principle was recently approved unanimously by the Supreme Court in R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2017] UKSC 5.”  😀👍

Read the UK’s legal position in full here…

[Herman 9,765]

 

[Herman 9,765]

2 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

The festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, AKA festival  of Brexit, first proposed by  Theresa May  is due in 2022, virus willing 

The organisers have begun their work  and the first details are announced Here

As a Brexit voter, what do you think @SwindonCanary ? Worth going?

http://www.dismaland.co.uk/

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

2 hours ago, Jools said:

Refreshing to get a sensible post, BroadstairsR 👍

Perhaps, but with such unpalatable truths revealed (repeated actually,) I did not get any sort of answer .... as was to be expected.

There was a lot of good in the Maestricht Treaty of 1993 but it also opened the door to those with, imo, unrealistic  visions for the future of the newly formed EU. It also strengthened the control of the Franco/Germanic "alliance," marginalised the UK to a certain extent, resulted in the Euro currency which has been disastrous for many countries , especially Greece of course, and will now be tested by the trillions of debt that has been building up prior to and since the pandemic.

Apparently 80,000 people have qualified for pensions from the Union's coffers to date. 

I truly thought that the UK's 'out' vote would lead to sensible changes in the whole over elaborate project and even a reversion of the federalist ideal, but instead the opposite has happened and stances have hardened.

The UK might well not be the only major member (after Greenland and a few minor "countries" as well) to eventually quit. The Dutch may be next. The Finns don't seem too happy.

There are only one or two certainties that will evolve from this entire mess. They will miss our contributions greatly and both sides will have a lot of readjustment to do in order to cope with the complicated implications of the newly anticipated trading arrangements, should they become necessary.

Edited September 10, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[BigFish 1,987]

The markets know, that is why sterling is surging ahead on the prospect of no deal.........

Er, sorry, my mistake had the graph upside down. Strangely despite @BroadstairsR view it is the Euro that is surging and the pound that is crashing to six month lows. What is it they don't understand about his materful analysis?

Edited September 10, 2020 by BigFish
SIX MONTH LOWS not three months

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

Dutch may be next.

The Dutch may be next, or the Finns - based on what exactly?  I thought that it was supposed to be the Irish .....

[SwindonCanary 455]

Rats leaving a sinking ship 👍

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

6 hours ago, Surfer said:

The Dutch may be next, or the Finns - based on what exactly?  I thought that it was supposed to be the Irish .....

Based  solely upon recent events and instinct, nothing more.  I did say "may" by the way.

'Mark Rutte, the Dutch PM is far from being a eurosceptic but is now known as 'Mr. No, no, no' by the way he took the lead in thwarting the blocs recovery plan by playing the villain in the EU's latest recovery plan. Picking up the mantle worn by Britain  he has taken on the role of the naysayer with calculated determination as the unofficial leader of a group of smaller nations consisting of Sweden, Denmark, Austria and the Netherlands with the recent addition of Finland.'

He was also very vocal, along with others,  in his dislike of Merkel's Sinophilic attitude whereby the sale of cars took precedence over the treatment of the Rohingya  minority and Hong Kong to the extent that she wished to invite President Xi Jinping over in person for a joint meeting with all Euro leaders in order to finalise trade matters.

A limited video conference took place due to the pandemic. This matter is therefore yet to be resolved but speaks volumes concerning matters of priority in a worrying, to some, turning out of events.

Interesting that although I made many points of discussion, which may or may not be valid, that you should only be capable of picking up upon a lesser comment concerning the intent of the Dutch people.

 

The Irish once did vote to leave, as we all know. They then changed their mind in a second vote for reasons unclear. Perhaps someone can enlighten?

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

Currencies vary for a multitude of reasons, interest rates, quantative easing (selling bonds,) and even due to the competence of the government of the day  .....  a matter in which we are not currently blessed.

One part of any speech from Johnson and  I feel that even I should consider exchanging my Pounds Sterling for Euros. We seem blessed with the worst government of our voting lifetimes, which when combined with the most worrying health crisis in memory seems heading towards the imperfect storm. However I will continue to resist degrading my own country, or seemingly revelling in it's current problems, preferring instead to take comfort that our GDP rose by a significant 7% during July.

The Euro recently rallied due to the possible 'federalization' of European bonds ie. Coronabonds, dealt with already. It will depend upon how easily or uneasily this arrangement sits should further funding be needed. Which, imo, is inevitable.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[Herman 9,765]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

 

 

The Irish once did vote to leave, as we all know. They then changed their mind in a second vote for reasons unclear. Perhaps someone can enlighten?

 

 

Why the constant dishonesty of brexiters?? This stuff is easy to find out. 

The Irish voted against the Lisbon treaty and told their government to go and change it. The government did and put the changes to a new vote which won by a large margin. 

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

"Why the constant dishonesty of brexiters?? 

Is that meant as yet another insult?

Nevertheless thanks for that, although I had had it in my mind (blurred memory now) that a previous rejection of the treaty of Nice had taken place.

Again though a relatively minor issue is dealt with rather than the more disconcerting matters which exist nowadays.

What is your view on "Coronabonds?" Do you feel that they are the sole answer to existing differences?

Edited September 11, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[SwindonCanary 455]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Why the constant dishonesty of brexiters?? This stuff is easy to find out. 

The Irish voted against the Lisbon treaty and told their government to go and change it. The government did and put the changes to a new vote which won by a large margin. 

When Cameron went and tried to change things are 'friends' in the EU gave him nothing which turned the tide against them and led to Brexit. 

[Jools 584]

First major post-Brexit free trade deal  👉  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-japan-trade-deal-brexit-agreement-eu-b421841.html  🇬🇧🇯🇵 👍

[Herman 9,765]

That's not entirely true. See previous explanations. 

That’s not relevant to what you quoted. 

It's our. 

[sonyc 5,518]

12 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

Perhaps, but with such unpalatable truths revealed (repeated actually,) I did not get any sort of answer .... as was to be expected.

There was a lot of good in the Maestricht Treaty of 1993 but it also opened the door to those with, imo, unrealistic  visions for the future of the newly formed EU. It also strengthened the control of the Franco/Germanic "alliance," marginalised the UK to a certain extent, resulted in the Euro currency which has been disastrous for many countries , especially Greece of course, and will now be tested by the trillions of debt that has been building up prior to and since the pandemic.

Apparently 80,000 people have qualified for pensions from the Union's coffers to date. 

I truly thought that the UK's 'out' vote would lead to sensible changes in the whole over elaborate project and even a reversion of the federalist ideal, but instead the opposite has happened and stances have hardened.

The UK might well not be the only major member (after Greenland and a few minor "countries" as well) to eventually quit. The Dutch may be next. The Finns don't seem too happy.

There are only one or two certainties that will evolve from this entire mess. They will miss our contributions greatly and both sides will have a lot of readjustment to do in order to cope with the complicated implications of the newly anticipated trading arrangements, should they become necessary.

I think the stuff talked about in terms of a deeply federalist and centralised Brussels system (well, should use the word 'spun') by many media outlets in the lead up to Brexit is / was overdone. Of course there are undertones of truth. Certainly in the area of trading standards (especially safety) UK companies have had cause to complain.

There are other stories too, that are under-reported ... infrastructure projects, ERDF projects that have changed lives for the better as well as improve the industrial and rural climates of countless UK towns and cities (including environmental and traffic programmes). The return on investment is huge. I do have first hand knowledge of many projects (I was a traveller back and forth to the EU commission in my former job).

There is a huge depth of knowledge, intellect and humanity in the people who work for the EU. Most of all though is the collaboration of other countries who benefit from EU programmes. As a participant, you meet wonderful people. You get ideas by talking and meeting on a regular basis. What you thought you knew is amplified 10 times by reflecting on how others do things. I formed a love for the Dutch, such is their humour, openness and creativity. The UK is wonderful too for having deep thinking people but we certainly do not have a monopoly. Far from it. All this intellectual capital is soon lost.

Our shocking approach even to negotiations feels like the playground (from my limited vantage point I must say). To see senior Tories speak out so violently tells you all you need to know about the latest breaking of international law. The stuff put forward for Brexit in this thread is thin and often shallow. It has become not worth even responding to Broadstairs. At least you've put up your coherent thoughts on the matter. There is SO much good but it's never reported, it's largely hidden. I've witnessed it first hand. 

But the 'not denigrating' of your country in an aside to remainers, for me anyway, misses something very important. Being in the EU is about a broader belonging. It definitely is about what values we cherish. Remainers I think, feel upset at the loss about to happen. They put up arguments because they care, care strongly about the UK. They see the damage about to be done.

Remainers in my view are the ones who care about the UK. The EU like our present administration, is far from ideal. Show me an organisation that is. With the pandemic who might have guessed our government continues with such a damaging intention, if the current global situation isn't bad enough. Many Brexiters won't be around (the vote was heavily influenced by older and elderly voters) to see the effects on our younger people. They'll be long dead. That's hard to say but it's true. Yet there are open-minded older people still campaigning though. It's too late for now but perhaps in 5 years we might re-join a reformed EU?

 

(Apologies if any typos, or the grammar as I tend to draft replies on my phone, less easy to see it all laid out)

Edited September 11, 2020 by sonyc

[BigFish 1,987]

6 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

Based  solely upon recent events and instinct, nothing more.  I did say "may" by the way.

'Mark Rutte, the Dutch PM is far from being a eurosceptic but is now known as 'Mr. No, no, no' by the way he took the lead in thwarting the blocs recovery plan by playing the villain in the EU's latest recovery plan. Picking up the mantle worn by Britain  he has taken on the role of the naysayer with calculated determination as the unofficial leader of a group of smaller nations consisting of Sweden, Denmark, Austria and the Netherlands with the recent addition of Finland.'

He was also very vocal, along with others,  in his dislike of Merkel's Sinophilic attitude whereby the sale of cars took precedence over the treatment of the Rohingya  minority and Hong Kong to the extent that she wished to invite President Xi Jinping over in person for a joint meeting with all Euro leaders in order to finalise trade matters.

A limited video conference took place due to the pandemic. This matter is therefore yet to be resolved but speaks volumes concerning matters of priority in a worrying, to some, turning out of events.

If the Dutch wield such power it can hardly be argued that the EU is a Federalist SuperState with Empire like powers

[A Load of Squit 5,164]

1 hour ago, Jools said:

First major post-Brexit free trade deal  👉  https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-japan-trade-deal-brexit-agreement-eu-b421841.html  🇬🇧🇯🇵 👍

How long will it be before the UK realises that they've signed the 'agreement' in haste an they've agreed to let the Japanese hunt people in Wales?

 

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

I think the stuff talked about in terms of a deeply federalist and centralised Brussels system (well, should use the word 'spun') by many media outlets in the lead up to Brexit is / was overdone. Of course there are undertones of truth. Certainly in the area of trading standards (especially safety) UK companies have had cause to complain.

There are other stories too, that are under-reported ... infrastructure projects, ERDF projects that have changed lives for the better as well as improve the industrial and rural climates of countless UK towns and cities (including environmental and traffic programmes). The return on investment is huge. I do have first hand knowledge of many projects (I was a traveller back and forth to the EU commission in my former job).

There is a huge depth of knowledge, intellect and humanity in the people who work for the EU. Most of all though is the collaboration of other countries who benefit from EU programmes. As a participant, you meet wonderful people. You get ideas by talking and meeting on a regular basis. What you thought you knew is amplified 10 times by reflecting on how others do things. I formed a love for the Dutch, such is their humour, openness and creativity. The UK is wonderful too for having deep thinking people but we certainly do not have a monopoly. Far from it. All this intellectual capital is soon lost.

Our shocking approach even to negotiations feels like the playground (from my limited vantage point I must say). To see senior Tories speak out so violently tells you all you need to know about the latest breaking of international law. The stuff put forward for Brexit in this thread is thin and often shallow. It has become not worth even responding to Broadstairs. At least you've put up your coherent thoughts on the matter. There is SO much good but it's never reported, it's largely hidden. I've witnessed it first hand. 

But the 'not denigrating' of your country in an aside to remainers, for me anyway, misses something very important. Being in the EU is about a broader belonging. It definitely is about what values we cherish. Remainers I think, feel upset at the loss about to happen. They put up arguments because they care, care strongly about the UK. They see the damage about to be done.

Remainers in my view are the ones who care about the UK. The EU like our present administration, is far from ideal. Show me an organisation that is. With the pandemic who might have guessed our government continues with such a damaging intention, if the current global situation isn't bad enough. Many Brexiters won't be around (the vote was heavily influenced by older and elderly voters) to see the effects on our younger people. They'll be long dead. That's hard to say but it's true. Yet there are open-minded older people still campaigning though. It's too late for now but perhaps in 5 years we might re-join a reformed EU?

 

(Apologies if any typos, or the grammar as I tend to draft replies on my phone, less easy to see it all laid out)

Some excellent points which paints the whole picture in the necessary variety of colours that should not be ignored.

Made without insult and with due regard to the bad as well as the good of the EU.

I particularly agree with your last sentence, but wish that this had been stimulated by the Brexit vote  and without the need for the mutual harm that both sides are destined to be prone to.

I do, however, take you up on the manner in which you diminish the genuine threat of the federalists. Lets hope that there are fewer  of them than there sometimes appears to be however.

I  would wish to draw your attention to the following which I feel resists to a certain extent the continually repeated jibe (not from yourself) that brexiteers are either older or of a limited ability.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/920701/brexit-leading-intellectuals-unite-remoaner-lies-brexiteers-baroness-ruth-deech

The most recent contribution on their website www.briefings for brexit.com outlines just why  bumbling Boris Johnson's U-turn on the Irish issue has some basis in sense, if not legality.

 

 

The whole episode has been managed appallingly by both sides. Perhaps the UK is more culpable, especially of late. 

Edited September 11, 2020 by BroadstairsR

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

15 minutes ago, BigFish said:

If the Dutch wield such power it can hardly be argued that the EU is a Federalist SuperState with Empire like powers

The Dutch just disputed matters, along with the agreement of a few other states. Despite some of the tenets of the Lisbon Treaty which were implemented it was their right.

They eventually basically  accepted that they were fighting a losing a losing cause. Who knows what went on behind the scenes?

Nobody is saying that the EU is currently a "Federalist Superstate with Empire like powers,"  that is the intention of some in power. Let's hope it's just a few.

[BigFish 1,987]

11 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I do, however, take you up on the manner in which you diminish the genuine threat of the federalists nand would wish to draw your attention to the following which I feel resists to a certain extent the continually repeated jibe (not from yourself) that brexiteers are either older or of a limited ability.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/920701/brexit-leading-intellectuals-unite-remoaner-lies-brexiteers-baroness-ruth-deech

The whole episode has been managed appallingly by both sides. Perhaps the UK is more culpable, especially of late. 

@BroadstairsR I find your more reasoned approach on this thread quite refreshing. On this point though I am not sure that a 2018 article from the Express really moves your argument forward. Demographers deal in populations rather than individuals. Danny Dorling's work points to the core of the Brexiteer population being Southern English, rural or suburban, older and for a variety of reasons having fewer educational qualifications. That is not a jibe and it doesn't imply that Brexiteers have more limited abilities because that is not captured in the figures. Also, it is not a uniform description of every Brexiteer. That is a lot we can learn from this, but the research indicates that this representation is true.