The Positive Brexit Thread

[Fen Canary 822]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Three very sobering case histories from road haulage, agriculture, and the hospitality industry showing the massive damage being wreaked by brexit: 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/were-all-in-the-same-boat-employers-on-worker-shortages-in-england/ar-AALTYlC?ocid=msedgntp

 

 

Maybe these companies could try doing something novel such as paying higher wages to attract workers, or offering to put people through the training required to fill the positions they’re currently short of, rather than putting pressure on the government to give them back their cheap labour from Europe.

Supply and Demand, all these employers are happy to use it as an excuse to keep wages low, yet suddenly don’t seem in favour of it when it’s in favour of the workers!

[horsefly 4,300]

20 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Maybe these companies could try doing something novel such as paying higher wages to attract workers, or offering to put people through the training required to fill the positions they’re currently short of, rather than putting pressure on the government to give them back their cheap labour from Europe.

Supply and Demand, all these employers are happy to use it as an excuse to keep wages low, yet suddenly don’t seem in favour of it when it’s in favour of the workers!

You clearly haven't read the article have you, or did you have a temporary blackout at the point when one of the owners points out that raising the wages has not helped?

Edited July 8, 2021 by horsefly

[Fen Canary 822]

20 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You clearly haven't read the article have you, or did you have a temporary blackout at the point when one of the owners points out that raising the wages has not helped?

I did read it, they obviously didn’t raise them enough did they? If nobody is still interested then they need to be raised again, and if there is nobody with the relevant qualifications then it’s the employers job to train them, seeing as they’re the ones that ultimately profit from their staff after all. The fact even after raising wages slightly they still can’t attract staff just shows how dependent on cheap labour they’ve become 

[horsefly 4,300]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

I did read it, they obviously didn’t raise them enough did they? If nobody is still interested then they need to be raised again, and if there is nobody with the relevant qualifications then it’s the employers job to train them, seeing as they’re the ones that ultimately profit from their staff after all. The fact even after raising wages slightly they still can’t attract staff just shows how dependent on cheap labour they’ve become 

So your advice to businesses coping with the massive loss of trade resulting from brexit is to raise wages to a level that will make them bankrupt. Great strategy!

[Fen Canary 822]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

So your advice to businesses coping with the massive loss of trade resulting from brexit is to raise wages to a level that will make them bankrupt. Great strategy!

So you’ll agree that the EUs freedom of movement laws suppressed wages for workers, and now companies can no longer import workers they’re going to have to substantially increase the wages they offer to attract staff? 

[horsefly 4,300]

33 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So you’ll agree that the EUs freedom of movement laws suppressed wages for workers, and now companies can no longer import workers they’re going to have to substantially increase the wages they offer to attract staff? 

I notice you have no response to the fact that at a time when brexit has massively hit SME trade there simply isn't the money to  increase wages to a level that would entice reluctant workers. It ought to be obvious that you have to be making a profit to increase wages, so when brexit destroys huge amounts of trade with the EU and increases the costs of what little is left through hideous levels of expensive bureaucracy, wage increase become a bit tricky (believe it or not). The majority of businesses in this country are not Japanese or French car manufacturers so are not in receipt of multi-million pound bribes. It was not freedom of movement that supressed wages, but the government's refusal to increase the minimum wage. This could have been done while we were within the EU and before brexit wreaked massive financial damage upon SMEs making significant (or any) wage increases unfeasible. So please feel free to tell us where this money is supposed to come from?

Perhaps you should try talking to some SME business owners to find out the reality. Or just watch the many twitter videos, or this week's Panorama or ...

Edited July 8, 2021 by horsefly

[SwindonCanary 455]

4 hours ago, horsefly said:

It was not freedom of movement that supressed wages, but the government's refusal to increase the minimum wage

Is it not up to the employer to up the wages ?

[Surfer 1,547]

No, it's the "market" that controls wages. So if one company raises its wages and the others do not that company is at a competitive disadvantage. Hence we occasionally need a little nudge from governments around things like safety at work rules, minimum wages, maximum working hours, minimum working age etc.... you must really put forward better arguments than this to be a successful troll old boy. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Surfer

[Surfer 1,547]

But in the meantime, the failing State that has not (yet) put physical barriers in the way of its citizens leaving the country appears to feel threatened by its citizens choosing to become citizens of other European countries.... no doubt the sheep will soon be on here to parrot in unison "if they don't like the country they should leave" without a hint of self awareness that is exactly what these people are doing. 

[SwindonCanary 455]

Hotel cleaners,  bar staff  etc. are not paid enough, it's up to the employer to up the wages 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

22 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Hotel cleaners,  bar staff  etc. are not paid enough, it's up to the employer to up the wages 

They are probably being paid Minimum wage. Its up to the Government to raise the threshold.

[Herman 9,764]

 

[Fen Canary 822]

8 hours ago, horsefly said:

I notice you have no response to the fact that at a time when brexit has massively hit SME trade there simply isn't the money to  increase wages to a level that would entice reluctant workers. It ought to be obvious that you have to be making a profit to increase wages, so when brexit destroys huge amounts of trade with the EU and increases the costs of what little is left through hideous levels of expensive bureaucracy, wage increase become a bit tricky (believe it or not). The majority of businesses in this country are not Japanese or French car manufacturers so are not in receipt of multi-million pound bribes. It was not freedom of movement that supressed wages, but the government's refusal to increase the minimum wage. This could have been done while we were within the EU and before brexit wreaked massive financial damage upon SMEs making significant (or any) wage increases unfeasible. So please feel free to tell us where this money is supposed to come from?

Perhaps you should try talking to some SME business owners to find out the reality. Or just watch the many twitter videos, or this week's Panorama or ...

I’m sorry but that is just nonsense. The minimum wage is just that, it’s supposed to be the minimum amount a full time worker needs to be able to live. It’s not supposed to be set at a high enough level that all jobs are basically paid the same. In my opinion it’s too low but that’s another argument.

Its’s an employers job to attract staff to their business, so if offering the minimum wage isn’t enticing people to work for them then they need to offer better pay and conditions. If that means their costs rise more than they are able to raise their prices then they don’t have a viable business to begin with, so they’ll fail and their share of the market will go to a more efficiently run competitor.

For years the working class have complained that being able to import workers from abroad has kept wage costs down for business. Now that industry is largely shut off from that pool of cheap labour they’re complaining that their wage costs are going to rise, and you’re painting this is a bad thing?
 

[Fen Canary 822]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

They are probably being paid Minimum wage. Its up to the Government to raise the threshold.

Not all jobs should be paid at minimum wage, it’s a minimum after all. If you’re struggling to attract staff then you need to offer better pay and conditions.

If you raise the minimum wage these jobs will still go unfilled, as why would you go into haulage (long hours/away from home), horticulture (physical work/unreliable hours) or hospitality (unsociable hours) when you can earn the same or more on a supermarket checkout?

We’re now seeing the effect that large scale immigration had on the labour market. Industry had it their way for a long time, the pendulum is now finally swinging back slightly towards the workers 

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0708/1233943-brexit-bill-uk/

The UK is liable to pay €47.5 billion to the EU as part of its post-Brexit financial settlement, RTÉ News has learned.

The figures are contained in the EU's consolidated budget report for 2020.

 

The report states that the UK owes the EU €47.456 billion under a series of articles which both sides agreed as part of the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement.

 

[horsefly 4,300]

32 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m sorry but that is just nonsense. The minimum wage is just that, it’s supposed to be the minimum amount a full time worker needs to be able to live. It’s not supposed to be set at a high enough level that all jobs are basically paid the same. In my opinion it’s too low but that’s another argument.

Its’s an employers job to attract staff to their business, so if offering the minimum wage isn’t enticing people to work for them then they need to offer better pay and conditions. If that means their costs rise more than they are able to raise their prices then they don’t have a viable business to begin with, so they’ll fail and their share of the market will go to a more efficiently run competitor.

For years the working class have complained that being able to import workers from abroad has kept wage costs down for business. Now that industry is largely shut off from that pool of cheap labour they’re complaining that their wage costs are going to rise, and you’re painting this is a bad thing?
 

SMEs around the country will be waiting for your miraculous solution to how they can manage to massively increase wages at a time they have taken a massive economic hit. You really should publish a book, you'll make millions with such a unique insight that has failed to occur to anyone else.

This is utter tosh as you well know. Grant Schapps has today set out the government response to this situation in the area of transport; lower the safety standards for drivers so they can drive much longer each day. The reality of brexit will be low pay combined with lower health and safety standards and employment conditions for workers. That was the agenda from the beginning, and is the reason why the country has been lumbered with the dreadful Northern Ireland protocol. The NI protocol could have easily been avoided had we agreed to at least match the standards of the EU; only the astonishingly naive would fail to see that the government's intransigence on this issue is a sign of its intention to lower standards in every area of UK production.

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

 

Does this mean there won't be £350million per week for the NHS now?

What idiot negotiated this deal?

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

52 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Not all jobs should be paid at minimum wage, it’s a minimum after all. If you’re struggling to attract staff then you need to offer better pay and conditions.

If you raise the minimum wage these jobs will still go unfilled, as why would you go into haulage (long hours/away from home), horticulture (physical work/unreliable hours) or hospitality (unsociable hours) when you can earn the same or more on a supermarket checkout?

We’re now seeing the effect that large scale immigration had on the labour market. Industry had it their way for a long time, the pendulum is now finally swinging back slightly towards the workers 

UK doesn't need cheap labour 

It just needs labour 

Labour shortage

Nice to see the workers in a stronger position, I just hope additional costs don't get passed on to the consumer....

[Fen Canary 822]

12 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

UK doesn't need cheap labour 

It just needs labour 

Labour shortage

Nice to see the workers in a stronger position, I just hope additional costs don't get passed on to the consumer....

If we need labour, then immigration should ensure that it isn’t the cheap variety. As part of the visa requirements, the business claiming a labour shortage should have pay the new immigrant 25% above the current market rate for the position they claim they can’t fill domestically. If they refuse then they’re obviously not that desperate to fill the position

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

This is utter tosh as you well know. Grant Schapps has today set out the government response to this situation in the area of transport; lower the safety standards for drivers so they can drive much longer each day. The reality of brexit will be low pay combined with lower health and safety standards and employment conditions for workers. That was the agenda from the beginning, and is the reason why the country has been lumbered with the dreadful Northern Ireland protocol. The NI protocol could have easily been avoided had we agreed to at least match the standards of the EU; only the astonishingly naive would fail to see that the government's intransigence on this issue is a sign of its intention to lower standards in every area of UK production.

Precisely, and the terminally dim witted fell for the "repatriate our sovereignty" slogans. And you will be subject to a never ending series of culture war distractions to cover up that central goal . 

[TopTory 4]

Reading the bitter remoaners carping on here explains why Norwich is a city with a village mentality. What a shame it is that so many lefties leave the UEA and then hang around in Norwich to keep nasty commie Clive Lewis in his job.

 

Thankfully I live in the country.... Conservative controlled and well run.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Not all jobs should be paid at minimum wage, it’s a minimum after all. If you’re struggling to attract staff then you need to offer better pay and conditions.

If you raise the minimum wage these jobs will still go unfilled, as why would you go into haulage (long hours/away from home), horticulture (physical work/unreliable hours) or hospitality (unsociable hours) when you can earn the same or more on a supermarket checkout?

We’re now seeing the effect that large scale immigration had on the labour market. Industry had it their way for a long time, the pendulum is now finally swinging back slightly towards the workers 

Its not as simple as you paint it.

You mention hauliers. They are invariably a cartel. They reach agreements not to offer more for drivers to come and work for them.

Horticulture is based on piece work where the harder you work, the more you can earn.

Hospitality does appear on the surface to be unsociable hours, but those hours have become the norm for many others without additional shift payments and the inability to boost pay with overtime. As a printer I worked shifts for much of my working life.

The loss of a strong Union movement and disappearance of industry has meant there is little appetite for other than a prevailing attitude of "I'm lucky to have a job".

[Fen Canary 822]

43 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its not as simple as you paint it.

You mention hauliers. They are invariably a cartel. They reach agreements not to offer more for drivers to come and work for them.

Horticulture is based on piece work where the harder you work, the more you can earn.

Hospitality does appear on the surface to be unsociable hours, but those hours have become the norm for many others without additional shift payments and the inability to boost pay with overtime. As a printer I worked shifts for much of my working life.

The loss of a strong Union movement and disappearance of industry has meant there is little appetite for other than a prevailing attitude of "I'm lucky to have a job".

So you’re happy with what was the status quo? These businesses for the last 20 years have enjoyed increased profits while wages have been largely stagnant. They haven’t had to compete for workers for a long time, due to having an almost unlimited supply from Europe.
Now that supply has dried up, and workers here have more choice about whether to endure poor pay and unsociable hours, yet many on here who proclaim to be on the left want to open the borders again so industry doesn’t have to pay their workers a decent wage, and staff are left having to take whatever is on offer?

[Fen Canary 822]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

SMEs around the country will be waiting for your miraculous solution to how they can manage to massively increase wages at a time they have taken a massive economic hit. You really should publish a book, you'll make millions with such a unique insight that has failed to occur to anyone else.

This is utter tosh as you well know. Grant Schapps has today set out the government response to this situation in the area of transport; lower the safety standards for drivers so they can drive much longer each day. The reality of brexit will be low pay combined with lower health and safety standards and employment conditions for workers. That was the agenda from the beginning, and is the reason why the country has been lumbered with the dreadful Northern Ireland protocol. The NI protocol could have easily been avoided had we agreed to at least match the standards of the EU; only the astonishingly naive would fail to see that the government's intransigence on this issue is a sign of its intention to lower standards in every area of UK production.

I don’t agree with any move to water down workers rights, I think the Tories move to increase the hours drivers can work is the wrong one. However they can be voted out at the next election if they go too far down that road and too many people disagree with them. 

Im just curious as to why somebody who proclaims to be left wing such as yourself is more interested in looking after business owners than the workers? For over 20 years wages have been stagnant, with staff often left with a take it or leave it ultimatum as owners could simply replace them with labour from the continent. Now that has dried up and the pendulum has swung back towards the poor, giving them more options about who to work for, what conditions they’re happy with and what pay is acceptable for the first time in a generation and you want to reverse all that and put the power back in the hands of the wealthy? 

[Fen Canary 822]

3 hours ago, Surfer said:

Precisely, and the terminally dim witted fell for the "repatriate our sovereignty" slogans. And you will be subject to a never ending series of culture war distractions to cover up that central goal . 

I can vote out the Tories if they pursue policies I don’t approve of, or if Labour appear a better alternative. I couldn’t do that with the EU Commission, which was the crux of the sovereignty argument. That however is a seperate point to the one I was making regarding the supply and demand of labour and wages.

It’s also nonsense to say that any culture war was started by anybody but the identity politics brigade of the middle class left (a very different group to the old working class left)

Edited July 9, 2021 by Fen Canary

[Surfer 1,547]

Give it one more election cycle and you won’t be able to vote the Tories out. That’s their goal. 
 

And PLEASE on the culture wars, started by US Tories (Republicans initially and then by Trump on steroids), continued by Boris and his crew… everything a grievance, everything blamed on “others”, everything about how those in power are really the ones being oppressed. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Surfer

[Fen Canary 822]

1 hour ago, Surfer said:

Give it one more election cycle and you won’t be able to vote the Tories out. That’s their goal. 
 

And PLEASE on the culture wars, started by US Tories (Republicans initially and then by Trump on steroids), continued by Boris and his crew… everything a grievance, everything blamed on “others”, everything about how those in power are really the ones being oppressed. 

Identity politics, Critical Race Theory, phrases such as White Supremacy and Fragility, labelling feminists as TERFS, mostly peaceful BLM riots, Silence is Violence, racially abusing ethnic minorities (Uncle Tom etc) who don’t agree with them, Cancel Culture and No Platforming in universities.

I don’t think a single one of these things was started or supported by anybody who would class themselves as to the right of centre culturally. To borrow a phrase from the “woke” (for want of a better word), to try and blame any aspect of the culture wars on anybody who is vaguely conservative (small c) is gaslighting of the highest order 

[Surfer 1,547]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

To borrow a phrase from the “woke” (for want of a better word), to try and blame any aspect of the culture wars on anybody who is vaguely conservative (small c) is gaslighting of the highest order 

I’m sorry to say, but if you write that without a very large dollop of trolling sarcasm, you are either tragically ill-informed, or willfully ignorant. 

[Herman 9,764]

I see Tory central office has sent out its minions.😀

[horsefly 4,300]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Im just curious as to why somebody who proclaims to be left wing such as yourself is more interested in looking after business owners than the workers? For over 20 years wages have been stagnant, with staff often left with a take it or leave it ultimatum as owners could simply replace them with labour from the continent. Now that has dried up and the pendulum has swung back towards the poor, giving them more options about who to work for, what conditions they’re happy with and what pay is acceptable for the first time in a generation and you want to reverse all that and put the power back in the hands of the wealthy? 

Your naivety about economics is startling, as is your trite attempt to define the interests of workers and employers as entirely distinct. I have spent my adult life campaigning for, and arguing for, a much fairer distribution of wealth including fighting against poverty pay. But sadly because of the nationalistic individuals like you who have lumbered us with brexit we have a business environment suffering from a calamatous loss of trade and massively increased expenses. You may be happy to stick your fingers in your ears and join Johnson in la-la land but that is not an option for the owners and workers of SMEs. Many of them are now fighting desperately to remain viable (as the thousands of twitter posts attest), so the idea that they are in a position to attact new workers with much higher wages is simply ludicrous. Many of them (where they can) have moved large parts of their operations (even entire businesses)  to the EU to circumvent the damage caused by brexit. Anyone thinking that is good news for the UK economy or the workers of this country is truly a fool of the first order (I suggest you watch this week's Panorama). Perhaps you should ask yourself  why Dyson, Ratcliffe, and Tory MPs like Rees-Mogg et al moved much of their businesses out of the UK before brexit happened.

I don't think I have read anything more ridiculously simplistic than your claim that, " For over 20 years wages have been stagnant, with staff often left with a take it or leave it ultimatum as owners could simply replace them with labour from the continent. Now that has dried up and the pendulum has swung back towards the poor, giving them more options about who to work for, what conditions they’re happy with and what pay is acceptable for the first time in a generation and you want to reverse all that and put the power back in the hands of the wealthy?"  This is just the same old nationalistic and racist trope that has done the rounds for centuries, and it has never resulted in the utopia for "native" workers that the bigots have promised. Sadly it's a lie that has a notorious history of propelling right-wing extremists into positions of power, and even more sadly there are still gullible fools only too willing to believe it despite the lessons of history.