The Positive Brexit Thread

[Yellow Fever 3,840]

2 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Truss story in full: (FT)

UK government split over Australia trade deal

Cabinet worried about backlash if UK grants tariff-free access to farming produce

UK secretary of state for international trade Liz Truss, left, and Australia’s trade minister Dan Tehan © Simon Dawson/10 Downing Street

   

May 17, 2021 8:00 pm by Peter Foster in Brighton and George Parker in London

The British government is locked in a “ferocious” internal battle over whether to sign off a trade deal with Australia after a split between the department of agriculture and the department of international trade over the terms of the agreement.

Two people with knowledge of internal discussions said ministers were divided over whether to grant tariff-free access to Australian farmers, which would risk a backlash from the UK farming industry — and potentially spark domestic political fallout.

Clinching a deal with Australia — the first big post-Brexit trade deal that is not a ‘rollover’ of existing agreements the UK enjoyed as an EU member — would be a symbolic moment for Brexiters arguing for the benefits of free trade.

The government announced in April that it was in a “sprint” to finalise the deal by June ahead of the G7 summit in Cornwall, which Australia’s prime minister Scott Morrison has been invited to attend as a guest.

People briefed on the internal discussions said Liz Truss, international trade secretary, regarded the issue as a “crunch point”. One government official said: “Liz argues that if you can’t get a good trade deal with Australia, who can you get one with?”

But she is meeting stiff opposition from George Eustice, the environment secretary, and Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, who have warned of the political fallout from a zero-tariff deal, the two insiders said.

Both camps admit they have no idea which way Boris Johnson will jump on the issue. “It’s the $100m question,” said one government official. Downing Street declined to comment.

One person with knowledge of the discussions said: “There is an absolutely ferocious row going on in Whitehall over the Australia deal with real pressure to get it resolved by the end of this week. Gove and Eustice are on one side, Truss and [Lord David] Frost on the other.”

UK officials said Australian and New Zealand negotiators were holding firm on demands for full tariff liberalisation, which Truss was under pressure to grant in order to meet the G7 deadline, perhaps phased in over a 10-year period.

But such a deal risks inflaming arguments over Scottish and Welsh independence because the likely impact of zero-tariff imports of Australian lamb and beef will land hardest in rural areas such as Scottish and Welsh hill farms.

Gove, a former UK environment minister who, when in office, pledged that UK farmers would be protected by tariffs in the event of a no-deal Brexit, is sensitive to the questions raised by Brexit over the future of the UK. One ally of Gove said: “Everyone is supporting Liz to get a great deal.”

The government estimates that a free trade agreement with Australia would be worth an additional 0.01-0.02 per cent of GDP over 15 years — or £200m-£500m more than 2018 levels. “Basically we’re talking about signing off the slow death of British farming so Liz Truss can score a quick political point,” said one insider opposed to the deal.

Truss is adamant that Britain should trade with Australia on similar “zero tariff, zero quota” terms to the deal the UK struck with the EU.

A Wye Valley sheep farm in the west of England. The likely impact of zero-tariff imports of Australian lamb and beef will land hardest on such smaller holdings © Loop Images/Alamy

She also argues that a deal would be a sign of support for Australia, which is locked in a trade row with China, and could expedite Britain’s push to join the broader trans-Pacific trade partnership.

The internal Whitehall dispute was played out last weekend in two Sunday newspaper articles setting out the arguments of both sides.

Minette Batters, president of the National Farmers’ Union, warned that British farmers could never compete if Australian farmers, with their “massive feedlots and soulless ranches”, were granted zero-tariff access to the UK — even if phased in over time.

“The government says it wants to ‘level up’ Britain. But this can never be achieved by throwing our family farms under the bus,” she wrote in the Mail on Sunday. 

At the same time, Lord Daniel Hannan, a pro-Brexit conservative peer who was appointed last September to the UK board of trade as an adviser, alongside the former Australian prime minister Tony Abbott, argued vociferously for the deal.

Hannan accused the “National Farmers’ Union officials, the Defra blob and a handful of Tory backwoodsmen” of trying to preserve the status quo and failing to embrace the free trade opportunities of Brexit, which included exports to Asia where meat prices are higher than in Europe.

“If we can’t do a proper trade deal even with our kinsmen Down Under, we might as well throw in the towel,” he wrote in the Sunday Telegraph.

An Australian beef facility. The NFU said Britain could not compete with Australia’s ‘massive feedlots and soulless ranches’ © Carla Gottgens/Bloomberg

Sam Lowe, the trade specialist at the Centre for European Reform think-tank, said NFU fears about the effects of an Australian deal were overstated, given that exports volumes were currently quite small.

But the deal would set important precedents for future negotiations with the USA and the Mercosur block in Latin American countries, which includes Brazil, a big beef producer.

“If these deals with Australia and New Zealand don’t get done because of domestic opposition, that pretty much says the UK is not doing anything with global Britain. Because if we can’t do these, well, in truth, everything gets more difficult from here,” he added.

Eustice has argued that some Australian farm production methods do not meet UK standards. In the Queen’s Speech earlier this month the government pledged to promote “highest standards of animal welfare”.

The department for international trade said it would not comment on speculation, but added that any deal signed with Australia would “include protections for the agriculture industry and will not undercut UK farmers or compromise our high standards.”

Trade Secrets

 

 

Does this mean there will be plenty of fire-sale rural retreats for the Brexit elite to purchase for weekends ? A return to the 19th century land owners ?

A sort of modern day 'land clearance' of the gullible peasants?

Oh well if it's what they voted for - i'm sure they can move into the cities and those dark satanic mills once we've cut our standards......

[Well b back 3,282]

BBC now reporting on the farmers and Australia trade deal. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57157094

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 16/05/2021 at 19:01, horsefly said:

Perhaps you would like to educate yourself for a change:

Treaty, a binding formal agreement, contract, or other written instrument that establishes obligations between two or more subjects of international law (primarily states and international organizations). The rules concerning treaties between states are contained in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (1969), and those between states and international organizations appear in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Between States and International Organizations or Between International Organizations

https://www.britannica.com/topic/treaty

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/treaty

https://www.srdlawnotes.com/2017/03/meaning-definition-and-types-of_7.html

A treaty is a treaty, not a contract, and invoking a clause of a treaty is not breaching it. 

[horsefly 4,318]

Just now, Rock The Boat said:

A treaty is a treaty, not a contract, and invoking a clause of a treaty is not breaching it. 

Read the links bozo! Invoking a clause in a treaty doesn't remotely imply that one has done so legally, ffs.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 17/05/2021 at 14:00, Creative Midfielder said:

I mainly use their British arch-rivals, Aldi 😀

But I do go to a variety of others on occassion and it seems pretty obvious that all the supermarkets have had Brexit related issues to some extent but Aldi and Lidl seem to coped better than most - I suspect that there are two reasons behind that; firstly their logistics have always been better/smarter than the major UK based supermarkets and secondly I imagine that the briefings issued by the German government regarding import/exporting goods were more timely, clear and accurate than those the UK government issued.

 

No. It's because Aldi has already switched it's European fresh produce suppliers out for non-EU suppliers, particularly North African,  and are therefore no longer importing through France. Therefore there is no blockage or delay in transportation. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Read the links bozo! Invoking a clause in a treaty doesn't remotely imply that one has done so legally, ffs.

At the moment the UK has not invoked anything so your comment is rhetorical. 

The EU, on the other hand, did briefly invoke A16 and then quickly withdrew it, presumably when smarter people pointed out the consequences of their actions. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 16/05/2021 at 16:15, PurpleCanary said:

The idea that the UK somehow slipped this past the EU is just the latest Brexiter fantasy. The EU is too well acquainted with La perfide Albion and Le perfide Boris in particular. It wanted that clause because it knew Johnson, given his loose relationship with truth and fidelity, could not be trusted to keep to the deal.

 

On 16/05/2021 at 11:43, PurpleCanary said:

There is no loophole. In extremis either side can set aside the NI part of the deal but then the other side can take retaliatory action. And if the UK's actions threaten to give it an open door into the single market, which is almost certainly what is behind this, the EU has various punitive options, up to and including scrapping the entire Brexit trade deal.

So which one is it? Did the EU include the Northern Ireland protocol to prevent Boris from scrapping the Brexit deal or to allow the EU to scrap the Brexit deal. Obviously, both statements can't be true at the same time. 

[horsefly 4,318]

3 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

At the moment the UK has not invoked anything so your comment is rhetorical. 

The EU, on the other hand, did briefly invoke A16 and then quickly withdrew it, presumably when smarter people pointed out the consequences of their actions. 

Jesus! You're the one who raised the prospect of the UK invoking A16, NOT me. Perhaps you should do yourself a favour and question why the UK has not invoked it given your absurd view that Johnson and Frost outfoxed the EU in having that option included in the deal. The very obvious fact is that the UK wouldn't have a leg to stand on, hence Frost's pathetic whimpering that the EU is "point scoring" by sticking to the letter of the NI protocol which both sides signed up to.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Jesus! You're the one who raised the prospect of the UK invoking A16, NOT me. Perhaps you should do yourself a favour and question why the UK has not invoked it given your absurd view that Johnson and Frost outfoxed the EU in having that option included in the deal. The very obvious fact is that the UK wouldn't have a leg to stand on, hence Frost's pathetic whimpering that the EU is "point scoring" by sticking to the letter of the NI protocol which both sides signed up to.

The UK sent a couple of gunboats to the Channel Isles but did not require to fire their weapons to bring about order on the water. 

In the same way, it may not be necessary to invoke article 16 in order to achieve the desired outcome. It's not complicated. 

[horsefly 4,318]

12 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

The UK sent a couple of gunboats to the Channel Isles but did not require to fire their weapons to bring about order on the water. 

In the same way, it may not be necessary to invoke article 16 in order to achieve the desired outcome. It's not complicated. 

How naive and gullible you are! Clearly pretty much everything is too complicated for you to understand. The idea the French fisherman backed down because they feared being fired upon by UK gunboats is laughable on so many levels. A few minutes spent reading what actually happened would prevent you making a fool of yourself. Empty threats typically have the opposite effect to their intentions. The idea that the UK is in any legal position to threaten to invoke A16 is so stupid it merely strengthens the EU's case. Hence Frost is reduced to bleating pathetically that the deal he freely signed is unfair.

Edited May 18, 2021 by horsefly

[Yellow Fever 3,840]

Chill HF.

Frost and the Brexiteers seem particularly well equipped for shooting themselves in both feet at the same time.

Nothing has worked out as it was sold.

[horsefly 4,318]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Does this mean there will be plenty of fire-sale rural retreats for the Brexit elite to purchase for weekends ?

The farmers will be able to make use of the same billboards they used to post their "Vote Leave" posters to advertise their farm sales.

[Yellow Fever 3,840]

12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

The farmers will be able to make use of the same billboards they used to post their "Vote Leave" posters to advertise their farm sales.

They could always move to Oz - if they will let them in. A bit of sheep rustling or a similar felony on the old CV will help or so I'm told historically.

[PurpleCanary 5,586]

On 16/05/2021 at 17:15, PurpleCanary said:

The idea that the UK somehow slipped this past the EU is just the latest Brexiter fantasy. The EU is too well acquainted with La perfide Albion and Le perfide Boris in particular. It wanted that clause because it knew Johnson, given his loose relationship with truth and fidelity, could not be trusted to keep to the deal.

Life is strange sometimes. Only an hour after I posted that comment about trust and fidelity I found out it was even more relevant than I had realised. But as Sherlock Holmes says of an untold adventure, that is a story for which the world is not yet ready.🤓

[Herman 9,837]

I hope Liz Truss isn't an MP for some rural, farming constituency. 

[Herman 9,837]

The self destruction of our culture by philistines and halfwits.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I wonder if the National Farmers Union will now join the TUC complaining of infringement of rights and ask the NUM for support?

New Zealand Lamb, Australian Beef, Jersey Potatoes, French Beans. Traditional English Sunday Roast?

But we have got our Sovereignty.

Edited May 18, 2021 by keelansgrandad

[ricardo 7,402]

7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I wonder if the National Farmers Union will now join the TUC complaining of infringement of rights and ask the NUM for support?

New Zealand Lamb, Australian Beef, Jersey Potatoes, French Beans. Traditional English Sunday Roast?

But we have got our Sovereignty.

Any NZ lamb in your Pasties?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

55 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Any NZ lamb in your Pasties?

Pah! You Philistine! 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I wonder if the National Farmers Union will now join the TUC complaining of infringement of rights and ask the NUM for support?

New Zealand Lamb, Australian Beef, Jersey Potatoes, French Beans. Traditional English Sunday Roast?

But we have got our Sovereignty.

Yes indeed, we still have the sovereignty which we've never lost - well not since 1066 and that hardly counts as it was hundreds of years before anything resembling the modern UK existed..

So despite all the damge Brexit has caused in so many other areas at least nothing has changed there.

[Herman 9,837]

🤔

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

25 minutes ago, Herman said:

🤔

 

😂 I don't suppose it really matters but it would be an interesting debate to determine who is the thicker - Johnson or Frost?

Personally I keep changing sides, gut instinct (and long track record) says it's Johnson but then Frost comes out with a piece of mind-boggling stupidity and I think that no, actually its Frost, and then vice-versa.......

It really is quite a puzzle....😂

 

[Herman 9,837]

I think they know they have really cocked it up and are desperately trying to find a way out that doesn't make them look like the idiots they are. They've got away with it so far but how long can it last?

[horsefly 4,318]

7 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂 I don't suppose it really matters but it would be an interesting debate to determine who is the thicker - Johnson or Frost?

Personally I keep changing sides, gut instinct (and long track record) says it's Johnson but then Frost comes out with a piece of mind-boggling stupidity and I think that no, actually its Frost, and then vice-versa.......

It really is quite a puzzle....😂

 

Newly discovered footage of Johnson and Frost competing in a Tory Party sports day:

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by horsefly

[Herman 9,837]

 

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149744

UK government to pay older farmers to retire

They're trying to bribe them with the offer of early retirement.

Will £50k be enough?

That slogan on the bus should've read "We send £350M to the EU, let's pension off our farmers instead".

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

3 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149744

UK government to pay older farmers to retire

They're trying to bribe them with the offer of early retirement.

Will £50k be enough?

That slogan on the bus should've read "We send £350M to the EU, let's pension off our farmers instead".

 

Almost certainly not I would have thought, although if the only alternative is being bankrupted by one of Liz Truss's fantastic trade deals then I suppose they might be tempted to take the money and run.

[BigFish 1,988]

Nigel Farage hits out at ‘hoaxers’ amid speculation only 21 people attended first US tour date "One was Nigel, six were his entourage and the others were all called Hugh Janus," one person said.  

[horsefly 4,318]

Posters may recall that before the pandemic kicked off the Telegraph published a leaked email from a top advisor to Cummings and Johnson which argued that the government should give up on supporting the agriculture industry as we could source all the UK's food needs from overseas. It looks like Truss has taken that advice to heart and is determined to drive farmers off the land and flood the market with inferior substandard food from abroad. That would conveniently leave plenty of our countryside open to be destroyed with vast housing estates developed by Tory Party donors. 

[horsefly 4,318]

3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Nigel Farage hits out at ‘hoaxers’ amid speculation only 21 people attended first US tour date "One was Nigel, six were his entourage and the others were all called Hugh Janus," one person said.  

Haha! I'm pretty sure he announced "Ima Tw at" was in the audience too.