The Positive Brexit Thread

[horsefly 4,300]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

It certainly does work both ways. And if the advice given to Boris is that the EU has acted in such a way that Article 16 can be invoked then it's not renegating on the treaty, it's saying the EU has broken the terms of the treaty and they are the guilty party.

Except that despite the months that have passed Boris has not been given any such advice because it is obvious to anyone with a brain that the NI protocol is essential to the deal. I'm not sure what "renegating" is supposed to be but one thing for certain is that the NI protocol requires customs checks in the "Irish sea" as the only alternative to a hard border between between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The UK government SIGNED off on that arrangement so has not got a case against the EU who have made it very clear they will take the UK government to court if it reneges on that agreement. You have to be extraordinarily gullible to fail to notice that Frost's words are full of bluster and no legal detail. But then brexiteers in NI believed every word Frost and Johnson said when they claimed there would be no customs checks on goods between Britain and NI.

Edited May 16, 2021 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,300]

4 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's not a contract so it can't be a breach of contract. It is a treaty. And it is a treaty that contains several articles of which A16 is one. If A16 is invoked it still isn't a breach of the treaty, it is part of the treaty being invoked. The government will be advised by its lawyers as to whether it can legitimately have cause to invoke A16 and the government will proceed taking into account the advice it has received.

Perhaps you would like to educate yourself for a change:

Treaty, a binding formal agreement, contract, or other written instrument that establishes obligations between two or more subjects of international law (primarily states and international organizations). The rules concerning treaties between states are contained in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (1969), and those between states and international organizations appear in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Between States and International Organizations or Between International Organizations

https://www.britannica.com/topic/treaty

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/treaty

https://www.srdlawnotes.com/2017/03/meaning-definition-and-types-of_7.html

[Surfer 1,547]

Well to all the RWNJs harping on about the EU; the test comes if the US says **** to all that and insists the Good Friday Agreement is fully complied with, and applies trade sanctions on UK if not. 

President Biden will not put up with unrest in Ireland caused by a billy bulls!tter like Boris Johnson. 

[SwindonCanary 455]

Boris Johnson could rip up UK's post-Brexit agreement with EU over Northern Ireland | Daily Mail Online

[Herman 9,765]

Do it then and stop posturing . I think most of us are bored senseless with this brexwittery now. 

[SwindonCanary 455]

Interesting to read the figures from the ONS regarding imports from the European union (down) and home consumption and imports from the rest of the world (up).

If you shop in lidl and they have taken to labelling items produced in the UK and as the shelves require constant restocking it seems to be working.

[horsefly 4,300]

5 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Interesting to read the figures from the ONS regarding imports from the European union (down) and home consumption and imports from the rest of the world (up).

If you shop in lidl and they have taken to labelling items produced in the UK and as the shelves require constant restocking it seems to be working.

Riveting stuff!!! It doesn't help you much though does it? A short while back you told us your typical Sainbury's shopping bill had tumbled after brexit (funny how no one else's had). It couldn't be that you're lying about your shopping habits could it? 

Edited May 17, 2021 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,300]

10 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Boris Johnson could rip up UK's post-Brexit agreement with EU over Northern Ireland | Daily Mail Online

We've seen this headline about a hundred times now since January. Doesn't it ever occur to you to wonder why Johnson never follows through with this threat? Silly me, of course it wouldn't occur to you to question your gullibility.

[Herman 9,765]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Riveting stuff!!!

I always shop in the quintessentially British shop Lidl. 

[A Load of Squit 5,163]

19 minutes ago, Herman said:

I always shop in the quintessentially British shop Lidl. 

Coming soon to high street near you is Russian discount supermarket 'Mere'.

😀

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

30 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Coming soon to high street near you is Russian discount supermarket 'Mere'.

😀

 

Simples

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

I always shop in the quintessentially British shop Lidl. 

I mainly use their British arch-rivals, Aldi 😀

But I do go to a variety of others on occassion and it seems pretty obvious that all the supermarkets have had Brexit related issues to some extent but Aldi and Lidl seem to coped better than most - I suspect that there are two reasons behind that; firstly their logistics have always been better/smarter than the major UK based supermarkets and secondly I imagine that the briefings issued by the German government regarding import/exporting goods were more timely, clear and accurate than those the UK government issued.

 

[A Load of Squit 5,163]

Further admission from Lord Frost that he doesn't have a clue. 

 

 

[Herman 9,765]

3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I mainly use their British arch-rivals, Aldi 😀

But I do go to a variety of others on occassion and it seems pretty obvious that all the supermarkets have had Brexit related issues to some extent but Aldi and Lidl seem to coped better than most - I suspect that there are two reasons behind that; firstly their logistics have always been better/smarter than the major UK based supermarkets and secondly I imagine that the briefings issued by the German government regarding import/exporting goods were more timely, clear and accurate than those the UK government issued.

 

I'd add honest to the list too.

The Vote Leave government have kept everyone in the dark, over-promising, under-delivering and they scared businesses into not upsetting the apple cart or risk losing contracts, or even a press/social media bashing.

[horsefly 4,300]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

Further admission from Lord Frost that he doesn't have a clue. 

 

 

Unbelievable!* Basically this is an admission that the benefits they claimed brexit would bring were lies and fantasy, and now they are desperately flailing around for someone to magic up a positive.

BTW, brexitards promoting the absurdly ludicrous idea that Johnson and Frost had "cleverly" negotiated the NI protocol to engineer an easy escape from onerous customs regulations, should take a look at their latest pathetic proposal:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/uk-proposes-new-brexit-irish-sea-border-checks-on-food-be-phased-in/ar-BB1gPji5?ocid=msedgntp

It basically amounts to the UK admitting it has negotiated a dreadful deal and would the EU be so kind as to delay the implementation of the checks the UK signed up to in that deal in order to delay the sh*t storm that their full implementation will bring. The last time I looked, childish whining that the EU should stop "point scoring" over the NI protocol doesn't actually constitute a legal objection. 

* unbelievable = totally believable

Edited May 17, 2021 by horsefly

[Herman 9,765]

More shock and outrage from the Express. The desperation to blame the EU for everything these feckers knew what they were voting for is getting ridiculous.😀

 

[PurpleCanary 5,561]

10 minutes ago, Herman said:

More shock and outrage from the Express. The desperation to blame the EU for everything these feckers knew what they were voting for is getting ridiculous.😀

 

There is a priceless quote from the Get Britain Out idiot:

The Brexiteer said the move "undermined UK citizens' rights in the EU".

Er, if you wanted UK citizens to keep their rights in the EU perhaps staying in the EU would be the way to go...

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

51 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Unbelievable!* Basically this is an admission that the benefits they claimed brexit would bring were lies and fantasy, and now they are desperately flailing around for someone to magic up a positive.

BTW, brexitards promoting the absurdly ludicrous idea that Johnson and Frost had "cleverly" negotiated the NI protocol to engineer an easy escape from onerous customs regulations, should take a look at their latest pathetic proposal:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/uk-proposes-new-brexit-irish-sea-border-checks-on-food-be-phased-in/ar-BB1gPji5?ocid=msedgntp

It basically amounts to the UK admitting it has negotiated a dreadful deal and would the EU be so kind as to delay the implementation of the checks the UK signed up to in that deal in order to delay the sh*t storm that their full implementation will bring. The last time I looked, childish whining that the EU should stop "point scoring" over the NI protocol doesn't actually constitute a legal objection. 

* unbelievable = totally believable

And here is a somewhat different facet, https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/17/immigration-letter-sent-to-long-term-british-citizens-causes-alarm    - even with a government of incompetent, lying charlatans such as we have now it still beggars belief that the Home Office don't understand their own ********* rules.

And when are we ever going to see a Tory minister take one iota of responsibility for the absolute shambles that they have created????

[A Load of Squit 5,163]

It's like he's got some kind of weird sickness where he has to continually trash himself.

Man admits he's clueless. 😀

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

Frost: EU needs to get used to UK controlling its own fishing waters : CityAM

[horsefly 4,300]

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

16 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

It's like he's got some kind of weird sickness where he has to continually trash himself.

Man admits he's clueless. 😀

 

 

It seems they didn't really have much of a clue about anything Brexity - and worse still don't!

 

[horsefly 4,300]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-ministers-divided-in-ferocious-row-over-possible-terms-of-uk-australia-deal/ar-BB1gRiyp?ocid=msedgntp

Ministers have reportedly been involved in a “ferocious” row over the possible terms of a new UK-Australia deal, with government split on how to proceed.

According to the Financial Times, the division centres on whether to grant tariff-free access to Australian farmers — something favoured by both the international trade secretary Liz Truss and Brexit minister Lord David Frost.

However, the environment secretary George Eustice and the Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove are said to have warned against the domestic political fallout of agreeing to such terms and a backlash from the farming industry.

“There is an absolutely ferocious row going on in Whitehall over the Australia deal with real pressure to get it resolved by the end of this week. Gove and Eustice are on one side, Truss and Frost on the other,” a source told the newspaper.

David Frost's secret Brexit list:

1. Sell out fishermen 

2. Sell out SMEs

3. Sell out Farmers

4. Sell out Northern Ireland

5. Sell out Road Haulage

6. Sell out Financial Services

Looks like he's competing well for salesman of the year

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-ministers-divided-in-ferocious-row-over-possible-terms-of-uk-australia-deal/ar-BB1gRiyp?ocid=msedgntp

Ministers have reportedly been involved in a “ferocious” row over the possible terms of a new UK-Australia deal, with government split on how to proceed.

According to the Financial Times, the division centres on whether to grant tariff-free access to Australian farmers — something favoured by both the international trade secretary Liz Truss and Brexit minister Lord David Frost.

However, the environment secretary George Eustice and the Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove are said to have warned against the domestic political fallout of agreeing to such terms and a backlash from the farming industry.

“There is an absolutely ferocious row going on in Whitehall over the Australia deal with real pressure to get it resolved by the end of this week. Gove and Eustice are on one side, Truss and Frost on the other,” a source told the newspaper.

David Frost's secret Brexit list:

1. Sell out fishermen 

2. Sell out SMEs

3. Sell out Farmers

4. Sell out Northern Ireland

5. Sell out Road Haulage

6. Sell out Financial Services

Looks like he's competing well for salesman of the year

 

Yes but it was his decision to sell out - nobody else's 🙂 

 

 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

Yes but it was his decision to sell out - nobody else's 🙂

Yes indeed, it was obviously a price worth paying for the 'benefits' of Brexit - an expression I expect we are going to hear with increasing frequency from the Brexiteers.

What would be a real surprise would be someone coming up with an actual and real benefit of Brexit - that is something that is clearly way beyond the ability of the likes of Swindo, Jools, mad Moyo etc but who knows one day someone may have a genuine go although even @Fen Canary is expecting us to wait 10 years before seeing some very nebulous 'better performance' whatever that means from the UK 😀

[PurpleCanary 5,561]

On 11/05/2021 at 16:59, PurpleCanary said:

I quite agree, Indy, and I will stop posting here the moment a Brexiter can provide one example of a major Leave claim or promise that wasn't either a complete and outright lie, so misleading as to qualify as a lie, a severe distortion of the truth, or essentially illusory.

The more the hapless Lord Frost speaks...

 

[horsefly 4,300]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Yes indeed, it was obviously a price worth paying for the 'benefits' of Brexit - an expression I expect we are going to hear with increasing frequency from the Brexiteers.

What would be a real surprise would be someone coming up with an actual and real benefit of Brexit - that is something that is clearly way beyond the ability of the likes of Swindo, Jools, mad Moyo etc but who knows one day someone may have a genuine go although even @Fen Canary is expecting us to wait 10 years before seeing some very nebulous 'better performance' whatever that means from the UK 😀

The really worrying thing is that it was farmers and fisherman that brexiteers used as the poster boys for the leave campaign (remember all those gigantic billboards spread across the fields of Norfolk and elsewhere). If they can't find a way for the brexit deal to prevent these industries being screwed over, what hope is there for other businesses? Furthermore, we haven't even got close to implementation of the full customs regulations yet. The EU will inevitably insist on following the regulations to the letter (quite rightly), and other countries like Australia will take advantage of our appallingly weak negotiating position to pick at the remnants of our industries.

[sonyc 5,518]

It is the terrible timing of the pandemic to have provided such a degree of 'cover' for this awful government with these ever emerging disaster stories of Brexit.

Yet, they will be uncovered. This thread provides a decent account of events and whilst I have no comment to make now to the Swindons or Jools of this forum because it's pointless I do think there is a need to record and comment on governmental failings and lack of foresight.

[sonyc 5,518]

4 minutes ago, horsefly said:

The really worrying thing is that it was farmers and fisherman that brexiteers used as the poster boys for the leave campaign (remember all those gigantic billboards spread across the fields of Norfolk and elsewhere). If they can't find a way for the brexit deal to prevent these industries being screwed over, what hope is there for other businesses? Furthermore, we haven't even got close to implementation of the full customs regulations yet. The EU will inevitably insist on following the regulations to the letter (quite rightly), and other countries like Australia will take advantage of our appallingly weak negotiating position to pick at the remnants of our industries.

There is a lot more to come regarding our farming industry too. No wonder there is a massive conflict in cabinet over the Australia deal. Truss ought to be utterly ashamed. Quite incredible that we are protectionist with vaccines but not about our own industries. I'm guessing there are also opportunities for foreign investment (the US) ahead?

Just reading too that the very nurse who treated Johnson has resigned in protest at the lack of respect for the NHS. Quite a story but the mainstream press will probably not even cover it.

 

[sonyc 5,518]

Truss story in full: (FT)

UK government split over Australia trade deal

Cabinet worried about backlash if UK grants tariff-free access to farming produce

UK secretary of state for international trade Liz Truss, left, and Australia’s trade minister Dan Tehan © Simon Dawson/10 Downing Street

   

May 17, 2021 8:00 pm by Peter Foster in Brighton and George Parker in London

The British government is locked in a “ferocious” internal battle over whether to sign off a trade deal with Australia after a split between the department of agriculture and the department of international trade over the terms of the agreement.

Two people with knowledge of internal discussions said ministers were divided over whether to grant tariff-free access to Australian farmers, which would risk a backlash from the UK farming industry — and potentially spark domestic political fallout.

Clinching a deal with Australia — the first big post-Brexit trade deal that is not a ‘rollover’ of existing agreements the UK enjoyed as an EU member — would be a symbolic moment for Brexiters arguing for the benefits of free trade.

The government announced in April that it was in a “sprint” to finalise the deal by June ahead of the G7 summit in Cornwall, which Australia’s prime minister Scott Morrison has been invited to attend as a guest.

People briefed on the internal discussions said Liz Truss, international trade secretary, regarded the issue as a “crunch point”. One government official said: “Liz argues that if you can’t get a good trade deal with Australia, who can you get one with?”

But she is meeting stiff opposition from George Eustice, the environment secretary, and Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, who have warned of the political fallout from a zero-tariff deal, the two insiders said.

Both camps admit they have no idea which way Boris Johnson will jump on the issue. “It’s the $100m question,” said one government official. Downing Street declined to comment.

One person with knowledge of the discussions said: “There is an absolutely ferocious row going on in Whitehall over the Australia deal with real pressure to get it resolved by the end of this week. Gove and Eustice are on one side, Truss and [Lord David] Frost on the other.”

UK officials said Australian and New Zealand negotiators were holding firm on demands for full tariff liberalisation, which Truss was under pressure to grant in order to meet the G7 deadline, perhaps phased in over a 10-year period.

But such a deal risks inflaming arguments over Scottish and Welsh independence because the likely impact of zero-tariff imports of Australian lamb and beef will land hardest in rural areas such as Scottish and Welsh hill farms.

Gove, a former UK environment minister who, when in office, pledged that UK farmers would be protected by tariffs in the event of a no-deal Brexit, is sensitive to the questions raised by Brexit over the future of the UK. One ally of Gove said: “Everyone is supporting Liz to get a great deal.”

The government estimates that a free trade agreement with Australia would be worth an additional 0.01-0.02 per cent of GDP over 15 years — or £200m-£500m more than 2018 levels. “Basically we’re talking about signing off the slow death of British farming so Liz Truss can score a quick political point,” said one insider opposed to the deal.

Truss is adamant that Britain should trade with Australia on similar “zero tariff, zero quota” terms to the deal the UK struck with the EU.

A Wye Valley sheep farm in the west of England. The likely impact of zero-tariff imports of Australian lamb and beef will land hardest on such smaller holdings © Loop Images/Alamy

She also argues that a deal would be a sign of support for Australia, which is locked in a trade row with China, and could expedite Britain’s push to join the broader trans-Pacific trade partnership.

The internal Whitehall dispute was played out last weekend in two Sunday newspaper articles setting out the arguments of both sides.

Minette Batters, president of the National Farmers’ Union, warned that British farmers could never compete if Australian farmers, with their “massive feedlots and soulless ranches”, were granted zero-tariff access to the UK — even if phased in over time.

“The government says it wants to ‘level up’ Britain. But this can never be achieved by throwing our family farms under the bus,” she wrote in the Mail on Sunday. 

At the same time, Lord Daniel Hannan, a pro-Brexit conservative peer who was appointed last September to the UK board of trade as an adviser, alongside the former Australian prime minister Tony Abbott, argued vociferously for the deal.

Hannan accused the “National Farmers’ Union officials, the Defra blob and a handful of Tory backwoodsmen” of trying to preserve the status quo and failing to embrace the free trade opportunities of Brexit, which included exports to Asia where meat prices are higher than in Europe.

“If we can’t do a proper trade deal even with our kinsmen Down Under, we might as well throw in the towel,” he wrote in the Sunday Telegraph.

An Australian beef facility. The NFU said Britain could not compete with Australia’s ‘massive feedlots and soulless ranches’ © Carla Gottgens/Bloomberg

Sam Lowe, the trade specialist at the Centre for European Reform think-tank, said NFU fears about the effects of an Australian deal were overstated, given that exports volumes were currently quite small.

But the deal would set important precedents for future negotiations with the USA and the Mercosur block in Latin American countries, which includes Brazil, a big beef producer.

“If these deals with Australia and New Zealand don’t get done because of domestic opposition, that pretty much says the UK is not doing anything with global Britain. Because if we can’t do these, well, in truth, everything gets more difficult from here,” he added.

Eustice has argued that some Australian farm production methods do not meet UK standards. In the Queen’s Speech earlier this month the government pledged to promote “highest standards of animal welfare”.

The department for international trade said it would not comment on speculation, but added that any deal signed with Australia would “include protections for the agriculture industry and will not undercut UK farmers or compromise our high standards.”

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