westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Fuzzar said: Knowing that a certain key player for Derby wasn't going to play as they'd set up in training without him doesn't seem like a pretty minor thing to me. It has given Leeds a very specific piece of info and given them a definite advantage. The fact that Harry Wilson didn't feature in that training session did not establish that he wouldn't be in the team on the day. It didn't establish that any particular player in or absent from that session would play on the day. The "spy" perhaps reported that Wilson took no part. What conclusion would you draw in the absence of other information? At best that there was a possibility that he wouldn't play. In point of fact, Wilson has only played in 22 of Derby's 28 league games; he isn't an ever-present. Any team due to play Derby will have noted and prepared for how they play with Wilson in the team, and how they play without him; same for every other Derby player. There are countless examples of managers briefing before games that this or that player is unlikely to play (e.g. "it's come too soon for him to be fully recovered from his injury"), only for the player to be in the team after all. Similar blatant attempts to mislead an opponent prior to a game are commonplace. The fact is that, until the team sheet is published, opposing teams cannot be certain of who they are going to face. Given that teams in general try to be as secretive as they can, it's a bit rich when they then start throwing toys out of the pram when someone actually tries to break the cloud of secretiveness and misinformation. How is it right to spread misinformation but wrong to try to identify it for what it is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,518 Posted January 21, 2019 Have been reading that there are social media calls for a #welcomenorwich campaign ahead of our visit. It appears their fans think our fans are to blame for NCFC's formal request to the EFL for clarification. This could all get nasty. And it shows the mentality of some Leeds folk. Back to the 1980s it seems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 22 minutes ago, sonyc said: Have been reading that there are social media calls for a #welcomenorwich campaign ahead of our visit. It appears their fans think our fans are to blame for NCFC's formal request to the EFL for clarification. This could all get nasty. And it shows the mentality of some Leeds folk. Back to the 1980s it seems. Becoming involved as we have is utterly stupid. As someone has already said, DF made the only comment necessary; it should have been left at that. Now we are just inviting people to think we are jumping on the bandwagon in the hope of obtaining some off-field advantage. Just keep out of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Number9 272 Posted January 21, 2019 West coast canary said The fact is that, until the team sheet is published, opposing teams cannot be certain of who they are going to face Bielsa would release the Leeds team in advance and then the spying could establish how the opposition reacted and defended against the named Leeds team. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,560 Posted January 21, 2019 Seems to me this is fairly straightforward. None of this is Norwich City's fault. The initial complaint came from Derby County. Their manager, hardly a newcomer to football, said this:“Cheating is a big word but this is over the line. I'd rather not coach than send people undercover on their hands and knees in the undergrowth."Bielsa has said he has spied on every one of Leeds United opponents this season:"Regarding what I’ve done it is not illegal. It’s not specified, described or restrained. It’s not seen as a good thing but it is not a violation of the law. Although not illegal it’s not necessarily the right thing to do. But the wrong things you do are not done with bad intention or an intention to cheat."Leeds United have formally apologised and in effect told Bielsa he was in the wrong and to stop the practice. Fine, Assuming he does. But I still see the need for an investigation, given that Leeds spied on every club, to find out how extensive this was and what lengths were gone to. Not least to establish what is legitimate and what is not, given that apparenty as it stands spying is not illegal in football terms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobLoz3 492 Posted January 21, 2019 Exactly, Purple. It's an investigation that needs to happen given the amount of complaints. It has absolutely no bearing on me, you or the rest of our fans. It is done from the club's viewpoint, to ensure that this kind of behaviour is known about and to find a solution. Perhaps in that it will be restricted and treated more harshly in the future. To add to that... Anyone from the Leeds 'lads' attempting to #welcomenorwich will find that they are given a harsher punishment by the police than Leeds FC will likely receive from the EFL investigation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, Number9 said: West coast canary said The fact is that, until the team sheet is published, opposing teams cannot be certain of who they are going to face Bielsa would release the Leeds team in advance and then the spying could establish how the opposition reacted and defended against the named Leeds team. What does "release the team sheet in advance" actually mean? As I understand it, publishing the team sheet takes place when the sheet is handed to the referee at a specified moment before the match. Until that occurs, changes can be made; after that moment any changes have to be agreed with the opposition (as occurred in the case of Klose recently). If Bielsa really is in the habit of giving out his exact team well in advance, my first question would be "Why is he doing this?" These are all part and parcel of the mind games that go all the time in football. This whole business reminds me of the arch-exponent of misinformation, Para Handy. Every bit as comical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drazen Muzinic 1,445 Posted January 21, 2019 The spirit of Don Revie’s Dirty Leeds lives on but in the form of PowerPoint presentations instead of dossiers in buff folders. I wonder if Bielsa makes them play carpet bowls on away trips too? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Making Plans 936 Posted January 21, 2019 Apparently this spying lark is quite common and rumor has it that The Scum send Stevie Wonder to spy on their upcoming opponents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mello Yello 2,293 Posted January 21, 2019 Cor blimey, what a palaver......We may have to do an electronic sweep of the away team dressing room at Elland Road on the 2nd of February, just in case they've installed microphones and pinhole spy cameras....... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
glory.win or die. 270 Posted January 21, 2019 Let's not forget Leeds wrote to the EFL last season regarding wolves connection to Jorge Mendes so they can hardly complain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749 Posted January 21, 2019 Does everyone who's suggesting that we shouldnt have got involved have access to this apparant "EFL Charter" that every club supposedly signed up to? Leeds may have broken a rule in this , so blatant that it would have been neglegent to have not requsted an enquiry?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JF 694 Posted January 21, 2019 There is obviously an advantage gained here by doing this otherwise they wouldn’t be going to such lengths to do it! They even sent a camera crew to a behind closed doors pre season game of ours claiming they had permission to film before being shown the door. What appropriate punishment if any is taken though is hard to call but it certainly won’t be a points deduction Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: Does everyone who's suggesting that we shouldnt have got involved have access to this apparant "EFL Charter" that every club supposedly signed up to? Leeds may have broken a rule in this , so blatant that it would have been neglegent to have not requsted an enquiry?? Has ANYONE had access to this "Charter". If you go on the EFL website you will not find any mention of it. Have you seen direct quotations from this Charter published in any newspaper or read out on any broadcast? I haven't. You will find the EFL Supporters Charter under the dropdown headed Supporters. It is simply a waffly collection of vague undertakings etc. couched in the most general terms. If the Club's Charter is anything like that, trying to stick something on Leeds based on it will bring nothing but ridicule. Likewise if there is some vague reference to "the spirit of the game" or "upholding the standard of fair play and good sportsmanship". Clubs everywhere transgress such nonsense undertakings all the time, and many examples of contravention are never pursued by the EFL or the FA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dylanisabaddog 4,921 Posted January 21, 2019 As I said in the opening post, I think that this is a serious matter. Training on Thursday and Friday is specifically geared to the opposition and particularly how to attack and defend set pieces. It's very naive to assume that we take the same approach in every game. We vary our routines to take account of perceived weaknesses and strengths of each opposition team. Knowledge of how the opposition are going to approach set pieces is a huge advantage as they provide so many goals. The responses to my original post suggest that we are split 50/50 on this. Some think it's no big deal but if that's the case why did Leeds go to such extreme lengths to get the information? A lot depends on the code of conduct but there may be a Championship team out there who has a good case to sue for loss of income if the EFL don't deduct points. They are probably already seeking legal advice and I would guess they will base their decision on what that advice is. I think we'll finish in the top 2 anyway so hopefully it will have no effect on us. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said: It's very naive to assume that we take the same approach in every game. We vary our routines to take account of perceived weaknesses and strengths of each opposition team. Nobody is assuming that. But just as we adjust to each team, so analysis of the match will provide information about the adjustments we made and what they were a response to. Furthermore, it is naive to think a team can make radical adjustments at the last moment without seriously affecting their own performance. There is a limit to the amount of adjustment that can be made match by match and a limit to the usefulness of doing it. In Alex Neil's last two seasons, none of our competitors needed to worry about what clever clever adjustments we might be making to counteract their strengths; all they needed to focus on was the systemic weaknesses we ourselves displayed game after game. Edited January 21, 2019 by westcoastcanary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 5,140 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said: As I said in the opening post, I think that this is a serious matter. Training on Thursday and Friday is specifically geared to the opposition and particularly how to attack and defend set pieces. It's very naive to assume that we take the same approach in every game. We vary our routines to take account of perceived weaknesses and strengths of each opposition team. Knowledge of how the opposition are going to approach set pieces is a huge advantage as they provide so many goals. The responses to my original post suggest that we are split 50/50 on this. Some think it's no big deal but if that's the case why did Leeds go to such extreme lengths to get the information? A lot depends on the code of conduct but there may be a Championship team out there who has a good case to sue for loss of income if the EFL don't deduct points. They are probably already seeking legal advice and I would guess they will base their decision on what that advice is. I think we'll finish in the top 2 anyway so hopefully it will have no effect on us. Regardless of how useful the information gained is, from what I’ve read, Leeds didn’t did anything illegal or even deceitful to get it (although possibly saying the camera crew had permission to film is on the borderline). If they had a member of their staff pretending to be someone they weren’t to gain access, that would be “spying” but all they have been doing is what any curious member of the public could do if motivated enough. Unsportsmanlike like - yes. But worthy of a fine or points deduction? No way. Bielsa’s attempt to be open about how he uses the information they gather about the opposition has rebounded on him somewhat with the comments from other coaches/managers and tarnished his reputation. Let’s all move on and get on with playing and supporting football instead of getting worked up with faux outrage (didn’t John Peel play a single by Faux Outrage once?). Edited January 22, 2019 by Nuff Said Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749 Posted January 21, 2019 They possibly didnt do anything illegal in Derbys case because a view of their training ground is accesible from a public footpath?....what has probably alterted some clubs, maybe ourselves included, was Bielsa's declaration that he has done this with every club in the league....clubs who's training facilty lies completely within and is security guarded on private land. There then lies the question of trespass? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Nuff Said said: Bielsa’s attempt to be open about how he uses the information they gather about the opposition has rebounded on him somewhat with the comments from other coaches/managers and tarnished his reputation. I don't think it rebounded. The comments from other coaches/managers that I saw were virtually without exception to the effect that they couldn't understand the awed reaction of the media and others since nowadays every coach/manager in the top tiers does exactly the same meticulous scouting and analysis-based match preparation as Bielsa. I.E. Bielsa's presentation was nothing special, we all do the same, what on earth is the fuss about? That apart Nuff I agree with everything else you said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: They possibly didnt do anything illegal in Derbys case because a view of their training ground is accesible from a public footpath?....what has probably alterted some clubs, maybe ourselves included, was Bielsa's declaration that he has done this with every club in the league....clubs who's training facilty lies completely within and is security guarded on private land. There then lies the question of trespass? He didn't say that his "spies" always did exactly what the Derby spy was doing. Clearly what he meant was that he dispatched a member of his staff on a "last minute" information gathering mission before every match. That doesn't imply he told them to break the law or commit any offence in the process, nor that any of them did. This is getting absolutely ridiculous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul moy 235 Posted January 21, 2019 11 hours ago, Number9 said: Bielsa has announced his team a day or two before the game. The manager looks at Bielsas team and has a couple of days training specifically to counter that team. Bielsa watches the training. Some would call that genius, others would banish him to Siberia. If 11 other teams are pushing the EFL / FA to act, then it could distract / unsettle Leeds, so all good as far as I'm concerned. That's the first I heard of that and to me that's a lot more serious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeonYellow 4 Posted January 21, 2019 I agree that we should concentrate on our own affairs and would prefer to not get involved. However, I do understand clubs not wanting Leeds employees creeping about with wire cutters in their bag. I honestly can’t see why anybody would need wire cutters for a bit of honest looking over the wall. That shouts illegal, trespassing and not at all in the spirit of the game or at least as we hope to play it in Europe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, NeonYellow said: I agree that we should concentrate on our own affairs and would prefer to not get involved. However, I do understand clubs not wanting Leeds employees creeping about with wire cutters in their bag. I honestly can’t see why anybody would need wire cutters for a bit of honest looking over the wall. That shouts illegal, trespassing and not at all in the spirit of the game or at least as we hope to play it in Europe. Where is it definitely said that the guy had wire cutters in his bag? Are these "wire cutters" actually the "pliers" that Lampard referred to in his original comment on the affair? No independent source has mentioned pliers, only silly people taking Lampard's comments at face value and as gospel. As I've pointed out before, according to the police who spoke to the guy at the time, he was equipped with binoculars and a change of clothes; that would suggest they examined whatever backpack or bag he had with him and found nothing else in his possession; if they'd found wire cutters they would almost certainly have been able to charge him with intent to commit an offence. Instead of which they took no action other than suggesting he move on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said: ............... not at all in the spirit of the game or at least as we hope to play it in Europe. Are you joking -- the Europe bit I mean? Let Pep Guardiola set you straight: Long-time Bielsa admirer Pep Guardiola said that the practice is commonplace across the spectrum of world football, revealing that he experienced it during his tenure at Bayern Munich. "In other countries, everybody does that," the Catalan told reporters. "When I was training Bayern Munich there were people on a little mountain – opponents with cameras – watching what we were doing. "It was cultural for the clubs, not because I said, 'you have to go to do that'. It was part of the culture."Jurgen Klopp, when questioned about it, was clearly familiar with the practice though claiming he didn't engage in it. So familiar that he pointed out that Liverpool carry out some training sessions concealed behind curtains! And the Saints manager, Hassenhuttl told journalists that he'd done it himself in Germany. No doubt it won't be long before Little England is on the march to ban foreign managers/coaches entirely from the game. On the other hand we could all take Dieter Harmann's advice and develop a bit of perspective:"How precious do football clubs think they are? Let’s get some perspective, please." Edited January 22, 2019 by westcoastcanary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
splendidrush 700 Posted January 22, 2019 If this ever gets to an inquiry, I think Bielsa will want westcoast to represent him. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, splendidrush said: If this ever gets to an inquiry, I think Bielsa will want westcoast to represent him. If you think I'm doing a good job, imagine the destruction a well-briefed, well-informed team of lawyers will wreak on any even half serious inquiry. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Moss 2,165 Posted January 22, 2019 Do my eyes deceive me or is WestCoastLeedsFan actually arguing with himself? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
westcoastcanary 173 Posted January 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, Alex Moss said: Do my eyes deceive me or is WestCoastLeedsFan actually arguing with himself? Even the Forum edit function is ganging up on me! I'm no fan of Leeds, but I'm no fan of ill-founded outrage either. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
splendidrush 700 Posted January 22, 2019 1 hour ago, westcoastcanary said: Even the Forum edit function is ganging up on me! I'm no fan of Leeds, but I'm no fan of ill-founded outrage either. I'm not outraged either westcoast, I'm not even sure that there's a penalty to fit the bill. I agree that it isn't illegal and I'm sure that the football authorities will go out of their way to make a horlicks of any inquiry. That said, enough Clubs have expressed concern, they want clarification and details of what has gone on, no more no less. As already mentioned I'm glad it's not our Club caught doing this, legal or otherwise. Once this has all died down, all that will remain is the 'reputation ' Leeds will have earned... expect to hear it from the terraces for years to come. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,560 Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said: As I said in the opening post, I think that this is a serious matter. Training on Thursday and Friday is specifically geared to the opposition and particularly how to attack and defend set pieces. It's very naive to assume that we take the same approach in every game. We vary our routines to take account of perceived weaknesses and strengths of each opposition team. Knowledge of how the opposition are going to approach set pieces is a huge advantage as they provide so many goals. The responses to my original post suggest that we are split 50/50 on this. Some think it's no big deal but if that's the case why did Leeds go to such extreme lengths to get the information? A lot depends on the code of conduct but there may be a Championship team out there who has a good case to sue for loss of income if the EFL don't deduct points. They are probably already seeking legal advice and I would guess they will base their decision on what that advice is. I think we'll finish in the top 2 anyway so hopefully it will have no effect on us. A scenario, supposing this had not come out. We miss yet another penalty against Sheffield United. Next week a new taker - say Aarons - is selected, and they practise during the week. The Leeds United spy reports back to Bielsa that Aarons hits them to the goalie's right. We get a penalty. The goalie goes that way as Aarons hits it, and saves. We miss out on automatic promotion as a result of the dropped points. All happy with that when the spying is later revealed? Probably not. Perhaps that has even happened to a team Leeds have played this season. Or some cute free-kick routine has been reported back. Or a key player breaks down in training but the manager keeps it quiet. A not unknown occurrence. Edited January 22, 2019 by PurpleCanary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
