Foreign Ownership/Investment

[Badger 2,407]

KC - I think the £8m surplus will be used against the wage budget THIS year.Re the £5m for Wes etc - I don''t know, but I''d be surprised if it was much lower - in fact suspect that it might be higher.Yes I''d agree that there will a least one and almost certainly more sales next year and possibly one this year as well.

[Rogue Baboon 0]

We need a striker desperately and have been told we need to sell to buy, so I can see at least one going out in January.

As for who - well I would guess Klose is the most obvious as we are well stocked at CB now we have Hanley, Raggett to come in & Zimmermann has stepped up.

Maybe we could try & ship Naismith to West Ham for a few million as well?

[king canary 7,654]

@Badger

Right. So that would mean if that £8m is used this year, next season we still have a £35m wage budget. So we''d need to bring it down from that to around £20-22m. Which is another £13m minimum.

If I was making a prediction then I''d expect to see us sell Maddison, Klose and Nelson at a minimum, along with Tettey, Wes, Gunn and Reed leaving at the end of their contracts. This might bring the wage bill down a decent amount and raise some fees to offset any shortfall but it would leave us needing at least 4 replacements at a minimum.

[king canary 7,654]

@Rogue

Very small chance we get any money for Naismith. At best he''ll go on a free or even a loan. Moyes only has a contract until the end of the season so I can''t see them sanctioning many moves in January.

[Badger 2,407]

Rogue baboon - it is likely that we will have to sell some players - but by no means all.We DO have parachute payments for this year. This is significant as it gives us time. We have used this to significantly reduce the wage bill - we do not know by how much, but figures of £10m have been quoted. KC estimated that the wage bill may now sit at 40m down from 55m. Contract expiry in July 2018 will reduce this by a further c£5m (guesstimate). The current transfer surplus of 8 million brings us towards a wage bill of the mid £20ms, which begins to approach viability, but will require further savings on player wages in 2018-19.It''s all "fag-packet stuff" I accept, but nobody has provided any evidence, fag-packet or otherwise to suggest that this is not the case. The Chair has said that there is no financial gap that needs to be filled at the moment but that it will become more challenging in the summer if we do not get promoted. This is a pretty clear indication that we will have to shift players - the obvious ones being high earners with 2019 contract expiry that might command a fee - Klose/ Pinto.The whole squad will NOT have to be up for sale but I would guess that we would need to plug a gap of between 10-15 million by player sales/ wage reductions.Again, I accept that there is a significant margin of error in all of the numbers given but notwithstanding this, there is no evidence to suggest a crisis/ fire-sale or massive losses.

[king canary 7,654]

"The current transfer surplus of 8 million brings us towards a wage bill of the mid £20ms"

But you just said the £8m surplus is being used this year. It can''t be used twice. If it has been used this year to offset wages then it has gone, it doesn''t renew again next season.

[Badger 2,407]

[quote user="king canary"]"The current transfer surplus of 8 million brings us towards a wage bill of the mid £20ms"

But you just said the £8m surplus is being used this year. It can''t be used twice. If it has been used this year to offset wages then it has gone, it doesn''t renew again next season.[/quote]Yes it is being used this year - 2017-08. It should enable us to approach breakeven this year. Of course it can''t be used next year as well - there will have to be further savings. I think the confusion may have arisen as Rogue baboon did not think that we had parachute payments this year and we were heading for a huge loss this year. I was explaining to him, as well as I am able, why this is not the case.

[Badger 2,407]

Sorry re-reading what I said, I have not expressed myself very clearly!

[king canary 7,654]

No problem. It seems like we all actually agree that sales are going to need to be made, I guess we just differ on how difficult that will be for the club. Must say I''m not optimistic.

[Badger 2,407]

KC - no I don''t think that we are very different in our views.I think that if we sold, Maddison, Klose and Nelson, I''d like to think we''d get £25m+ which is more than we need to - but tbh, given the approximate and fag packet nature of our calculations, it is well within our margin of error.I think that it will be difficult, no doubt about that but not hopeless as some seem to be arguing. We will be able to maintain a higher wage bill than many in the division. Good recruitment and good coaching will be the key.I certainly find this preferable to being at the whims of an investor, looking to make a profit.

[king canary 7,654]

Yes, I''m not an expert in this. Maybe those who know more can say but I''m not sure on the idea of using transfer fees to offset the wage budget.

[yellowandgreen 34]

I''m not attached to Delia and Micheal remaining owners. But they are real fans, which is good. But they are not billionaires, which is bad.

At the moment the owners can not use their wealth to sign expensive players who may or may not be able to add significantly to the squad we already have. Money is not always the answer but in football today it almost always is.

So we have a dilemma and no say in how things play out.

If I was Delia I''d keep it. A bit like Gollum from lord of the rings.

NCFC my precious

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="yellowandgreen"]I''m not attached to Delia and Micheal remaining owners. But they are real fans, which is good. But they are not billionaires, which is bad.

At the moment the owners can not use their wealth to sign expensive players who may or may not be able to add significantly to the squad we already have. Money is not always the answer but in football today it almost always is.

So we have a dilemma and no say in how things play out.

If I was Delia I''d keep it. A bit like Gollum from lord of the rings.

NCFC my precious[/quote]

If you want to stay with the Suffolk Socialists then you are looking at a long-term future in League 1 or bottom end of Championship.

Is this acceptable for a club of this size and potential to get bigger?

If you want EPL you will have to embrace a sheikh and take whatever risk goes with it.

This is the choice in a nutshell.

[lake district canary 4,542]

There is no choice vincy.  The reality is as stark as it is desireable.  We live within our means, we get rid of huge wages, we sell one or two players on - as we always have done - and we will progress as a club that is united and all teams playing with the same ethos - allowing young players to move through to the first team.  It worked in the late 80''s where a young team emerged almost telepathic in the way they played so instinctively well together.  That is why we have reorganised, that is why we have Webber and farke and that is reality. And we will still be a force to be reckoned with in this division and able to compete for the top six or even better.

[Badger 2,407]

[quote user="king canary"]Yes, I''m not an expert in this. Maybe those who know more can say but I''m not sure on the idea of using transfer fees to offset the wage budget.[/quote]In reality we have been doing this for decades - as indeed do most clubs. They sell their most expensive playing assets and use them to buy new players and/or to help pay the wage (and other) bill(s). You have to be careful with wage commitments though because you may not have a player for whom their is sufficient demand if you let the gap grow too big.

[Badger 2,407]

Vince, the other question that has barely been discussed is whether we are an attractive proposition to "plaything" investors. We are a long way from major airports with no motorways - a bit of a struggle to get to. I''m not sure that our hotels etc would have sufficient luxury either?I''d have thought clubs with proximity to London, Manchester or Birmingham might be more attractive?(Tbh, though, I don''t know many billionaires [:(])

[JF 694]

Sheikh Hamdan has his ‘plaything’ firmly based in Norfolk and manages to find his way here via our airports and roads

[Van wink 2,994]

I''m quite happy to support my local team in the Anglia Com, if Im going to pay big bucks to watch City I want them to be playing at the top level, we are a big enough club to be able to sustain that with the right investors.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user=" Badger"]Vince, the other question that has barely been discussed is whether we are an attractive proposition to "plaything" investors. We are a long way from major airports with no motorways - a bit of a struggle to get to. I''m not sure that our hotels etc would have sufficient luxury either?I''d have thought clubs with proximity to London, Manchester or Birmingham might be more attractive?(Tbh, though, I don''t know many billionaires [:(])

[/quote]It much depends on how much is to be exploited .. land etcAnd how desperate we are ie a basket case club will have to accept any terms

ooh, and a board that doesn''t want to look too closely at the accounts

[Ray 111]

A quick question, which may have been asked previously, why does it have to be foreign investment? Why not ''home grown'' investment. How many of us, if we won £250,000,000 on the Euro Millions would be prepared to sink all of that into the club?

[Feedthewolf 4,865]

[quote user="Ray"]A quick question, which may have been asked previously, why does it have to be foreign investment? Why not ''home grown'' investment. How many of us, if we won £250,000,000 on the Euro Millions would be prepared to sink all of that into the club?[/quote]There are a lot of zeroes there, Ray, but it''s still not a huge amount in footballing terms. Once you''ve bought the majority shareholders out and splashed out on a few decent players, you won''t have much in the way of change - and once you''ve built the club up in your vision, you''ve still got to sustain it. There have been far richer investors who have come in and failed. Look at Lakshmi Mittal at QPR - one of the richest men in the world, but he artificially inflated their outgoings and means way beyond their income, and left an FFP black hole in the finances and lots of overpaid players on the books. Basically what we did last season, but to comic-book proportions.Give me the sustainable model any day. I''m not saying I wouldn''t welcome fresh investment - we all would, surely - but who has bottomless pockets and an insatiable desire to see Norwich maintain themselves as a ''big'' Premier League club in the long term? I still look at the binners waving their tenners at us and afford myself a wry smile...

[Ray 111]

Feedthewolf,

I think you have hit the nail on the head tbh. At what point are we prepared to accept investment, is £250,000,000 enough to buy the the club and make it sustainable in the Prem and compete for higher honours. Do we need £1000,000,000? Is there any local person/ organisation prepared to put the money in needed to get us approaching top six in the Prem? If not then we may as well stick with what we''ve got, as long as we can sustain yoyoability!

[Duncan Edwards 2,258]

[quote user="JF"]Sheikh Hamdan has his ‘plaything’ firmly based in Norfolk and manages to find his way here via our airports and roads[/quote]

Presume you''re on about Nunnery Stud? I did email his brother, Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum about our wonderful club but it was a dead end. Plus, both Hamadan and the Godolphin operation headed up by Mohammed have their chaps play in blue.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Ray"]A quick question, which may have been asked previously, why does it have to be foreign investment? Why not ''home grown'' investment. How many of us, if we won £250,000,000 on the Euro Millions would be prepared to sink all of that into the club?[/quote]Because home ''investment'' is very rarely about needing somewhere to launder huge siums of moneyKid yourself otherwise but the likes of Charlie Chan at Cardiff and various other shady folk have not suddenly developed a liking of some English football club. It runs like this...

1.   Find a football club in real financial danger of collapse

2.   Gain access to the club boardroom, garner trust by making some short term donations or investments into the club

3.   Then, after a while, buy the club using funds sitting behind a

myriad of opaque holding companies often owned by offshore shell

companies

4.   Then you are off to the laundry. You get busy over or under

valuing players on the transfer market, negotiate purchase structure of

TV rights, engage in ancillary betting activities etc.

The sickening thing is not only is it so blindingly obvious but we still have City supporters wanting to hand over the club on the basis of a few promised ''baubles''.

Sadly there are too many snouts in the trough for there to be any real investigation. Football doesn''t want a ''say it ain''t so, Joe'' moment. That''s why questions over backhanders and dodgy transfer deals invariably get forgotten. That''s why there is so very little due diligence. Why this has barely raised a stir...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39964719

or

Carson Yeung (Brum) jailed for money laundering

Thaksin Shinawatra(Man City) jailed for corruption

George Reynolds (Darlington) jailed for money laundering

Thomas Guerriero (Oxford City) jailed for fraud

others at Orient, Coventry, Blackburn, Portsmouth have simply stripped those clubs bare

if you are serious about understanding how it works and how rife it is then have (long) read of this, if not just keep believing that there is some fairy godmother out there................. an ''hinvestor'' who wants nothing more than to hand over as much money as possible to make some obscure club a success

that''s all he wants ....honest

[nutty nigel 7,566]

Thats a thought though Duncan. We had the bluebirds play in red. We had all that Hull Tigers nonsense. Would we play in blue if that was needed to get Godolphin? Or perhaps the sheiks own colours which I think are more like Arsenal? How far would we be prepared to go. Does everything have a price?

[City 2nd 191]

nutty nigel wrote the following post at 2017-11-10 4:20 AM:

Thats a thought though Duncan. We had the bluebirds play in red. We had all that Hull Tigers nonsense. Would we play in blue if that was needed to get Godolphin? Or perhaps the sheiks own colours which I think are more like Arsenal? How far would we be prepared to go. Does everything have a price?

Didn’t we originally play in Blue Nutty! Historian that you are, thought you would have known that! So what owner decided we play in yellow? Bearing in mind the colours we have used, (and played in) in our second and indeed third strips, I would suggest that’s the least of our worries!

[Badger 2,407]

How much is enough Ray? I think that it would be possible to make a big difference with £250m, but I''m not sure that it would guarantee anything. As with our model, it depends upon how well it is spent - although it does give you more room for error!Goodness knows how much has been spent by some owners - QPR etc, without obvious long-term benefit. Anecdotally there seem to be lots of examples of owners coming in with a big fanfare and then adopting much more conservative models - could be FFP, I guess?Who is Sheikh Hamdan, JF?

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user=" Badger"]How much is enough Ray? I think that it would be possible to make a big difference with £250m, but I''m not sure that it would guarantee anything. As with our model, it depends upon how well it is spent - although it does give you more room for error!Goodness knows how much has been spent by some owners - QPR etc, without obvious long-term benefit. Anecdotally there seem to be lots of examples of owners coming in with a big fanfare and then adopting much more conservative models - could be FFP, I guess?Who is Sheikh Hamdan, JF?[/quote]or simply (as above)

1.   Find a football club in real financial danger of collapse

2.   Gain access to the club boardroom, garner trust by making some short term donations or investments into the club

3.   Then, after a while, buy the club using funds sitting behind a

myriad of opaque holding companies often owned by offshore shell

companies

4.   Then you are off to the laundry. You get busy over or under

valuing players on the transfer market, negotiate purchase structure of

TV rights, engage in ancillary betting activities etc.

[FenwayFrank 2,461]

If anyone is wondering, Sheikh Hamdan is a son of the king of Dubai, he has a stud in Thetford. Don’t get excited as he owns a lot of studs across the world and probably doesn’t know who NCFC are.

[Badger 2,407]

Thanks Frank.I''m pretty much opposed to foreign investment so not disappointed. But if we were to have it, I''d prefer a Sheik with local connections to a businessperson, who might want to recover his costs through sale of the ground etc.