Will history look kinder on Hughton?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"]Worthy was one hell of a manager then, picking up wins and points in the face of a much more hostile crowd than anything Houghton had to endure... even when the crowd turned it was a little half-hearted, as if Houghton had driven out some of the supporter''s passion for the fight.

He is not indefensible, but I find the apologists who cannot admit his basic and fundamental mistakes to be too blinkered to even argue with.[/quote]

You probably mean me. Ok, lets check this. Fundamental mistake number 1 - trying to change the way we play from the previous style.  (Oh, but the board would have known he would do that, so that it was their fault things were to change so much). FM2 - trying to sort the defence out in a goal leaking team that was by all accounts destined to struggle that season if that was not addressed.  In fact not a mistake at all - most people accepted this was important.FM3 - Going on a ten match unbeaten run on the strength of superb displays of hard work and desire. Biiiiggg mistake.FM4 - When the bubble burst after the home game against Man City, his failure to sort it out.  That was the first indication that things were not going to be easy for him and his strategy.  The confidence appeared to go overnight.FM5 - The eleventh place finish. Big mistake, that. FM6 -  Season two - allowing Snodgrass to  be the main man after Holt left. Now yes, that was a mistake. The man was incapable of playing just for the team, most of all hogging the ball and either scoring himself or failing to deliver it, thus making balanced team play impossible.  For that I blame Hughton and Snodgrass. FM7 - Substituting too late and the wrong players.  This mistake has been proven statistically to be wrong - his average time for changing players was 70 minutes.  Also the accusations that we never scored with a substitute were ridiculous, because we weren''t scoring at all, either with or without subs. FM8 - "Negative" "defensive" tactics.  Only partially true.  The idea that he set out to not lose rather than to win are ridiculous.  Playing to keep things tight were a requirement, yes, but the idea was that the midfield and attack were supposed to be good enough to hold on to the ball better and make enough chances of their own.   His overall strategy was not defensive - it is just that his strategy didn''t work enough - and in the matches it did work and where we created numerous chances, the strikers failed to take advantage. FM9 - Didn''t inspire the team enough.  Can agree with that - he was not strong enough and in that situation you need the type of players who are good enough and self-disciplined to rise to the occasion themselves - and for whatever reason, we did not have that right mix of players. FM10 - Putting out teams that looked bereft of confidence and ideas. Didn''t happen as often as people make out, although by the West Brom game, it was clear that the team had lost belief.

Overall, as you say, there were some redeeming factors, but the level of vitriol and level of negativity for the manager from the fans was way over the top.  The players thought so too - was it Martin who came out and said that the players were puzzled by the fans'' attitude? I think so.  I simply supported him while he was in the job, hoping that  he would turn it round.  A lot of other people just joined the "manager out" bandwagon. That really helped a lot, didn''t it, in the tightest premier league season for years where just a few points separated bottom from 10th and where support was crucial.  People may not like my attitude and opinions, but they are relevant - and the situation was way more complex than some people ever seem to recognise.   He was not a good fit and that is the history most people will remember, but that was not his fault.  I''ll remember a good man who was brave enough to take on what was a poisoned chalice in taking on a club that had just had three incredible years under a super hero manager.  No, he wasn''t up to the task in the end, but yes, the fans did have an effect on the situation too. That is not accusing anyone - it''s just saying it how it was.

Oh, and finally, most ridiculous of all - the accusations that he bigged up the opposition - most managers do that.

[mrs miggins 0]

"He is statistically our worst manager ever at this level with the exception of Dixie back in 94/95, and seeing as how Dixie didn''t have a club record amount of money spent on transfers, and had to accept the fact that Sutton had already been sold (and would probably have kept us up if we''d had a more experienced backup to Gunny from the first game he got injured), then I''d argue that out of the two, Hughton did the worse job."

-----

Is he?

It''s amazing how clouded peoples judgement is when they don''t like what they see. Yes his brand of football wasn''t pretty but 11th in the league in a stale team is good. The following transitional season was always going to be tough, though he was never in the relegation zone until he was sacked, yet the way people talk you''d think he had us at rock bottom for the whole season.

[hogesar 9,671]

The fact is people will be far more against Hughton if they watched the team and went to carrow road week in week out because he made it almost unbearable. Which for a football team you''ve supported all your life is quite some achievement.

Unfortunately for him, the way the team played has worsened his reputation for Norwich fans in comparison to his actual managerial performance.

There was talk after the first season under him the need for a new manager. I defended Hughton at this point. I was wrong, evidently, but the first season for me suggested foundations were being put in place for a team to regularly compete in the Premier League. Just a shame it was boring as fuck.

Overall he had one good season, which no one can take away from him. He also had one bad season. So hardly our worst manager.

The reality is the style of football under Hughton gave the fans nothing to get behind. The players were of course committed but the stringent tactics put upon them made it look the opposite. That second season I will ALWAYS defend Snodgrass for actually trying to take games by the scruff of the neck and force the issue. Without him, I think i''d have killed myself before Christmas.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Hogeasar has it spot on in my view.

If you didn''t attend games (whoever you might be) you didn''t live it ! and yes we all have the choice, but I tell you what it, its bloody tough saying I''m going to stop going, even when you feel the way the majority did at the time.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Well obviously the stats show he can manage his way out of a paper bag. You don''t finish 11th in the PL if you can''t manage even if folk want to believe 6 of those points had nothing to do with the manager. Add to that Newcastle, Birmingham and Brighton. Can we see what this water paper bag might look like Indy?[/quote]Clearly you CAN finish 11th in the PL if you can''t manage, because somehow Hughton achieved this despite finishing with 4 less points than Lambert did the season before and having a mere 26% win percentage - nearly 10% LESS than Lambert got - even though we finished 12th under PL...What''s more, if we DID believe that 6 of those points had nothing to do with Hughton, then take them off and - Whoops, we''d have nearly been relegated and finished 17th...and I don''t think the board would have been giving him a record amount to spend on the back of that somehow...The football was dire, the atmosphere was dire, the results were frequently dire and yet still some fans want to defend Hughton despite all this???Makes me laugh, that if it had been Gunn, Grant, Roeder or Adams that had done what Hughton did, they''d probably be slaughtered on here, yet because Hughton put himself across fairly well, he somehow appears to be immune to much of the rightful criticism that should be going his way. Let''s see how long it takes before Brighton fans get sick of the brand of football he''s serving up, because there were already complaints at the end of last season such as:"A very dreary end to the season. Goals drying up and lacklustre performances.""No ambition, about as passionate as a potato, get rid now and save next season, please!!!!""Lost a huge amount of respect for CH today. A chance to try something

different, 2 upfront maybe, give Tilley a run out. No, same formation,

defensive and going for a 0-0. Pathetic. Ultra cautious, ultra defensive, ultra boring.""Next season is going to be depressing.""Shown nothing since January to show he is the man to take us forward""At best mid table mediocrity next season - Unless he grows a pair of balls and takes some risks for a change""Stuck with the same style that was not working in the first

place. Don''t attack or score game after game and what does he do in a

dead rubber game? Exactly the same and brings on a kid for 3 seconds.

Ridiculous Hughton."Sounds pretty damn familiar doesn''t it...

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Is he?

It''s amazing how clouded peoples judgement is when they don''t like what they see.[/quote]Yes, he is, look here if you don''t believe me:[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwich_City_F.C._managers#Managers[/url]And then look at which managers during our time in the top flight have a worse win % than Hughton did - there''s only one and that''s Dixie, so it''s got nothing to do with people not liking what they see, this is an indisputable fact in terms of actual wins, and this was done with our most expensively assembled squad ever...

[Europe_93 11]

History can remember Hughton however it likes, what I will remember is a manager that took a team that was performing to its peak, spent about £30m turned the team into the most under achieving Norwich team in my memory.

In Hughton''s 2nd season, we played Fulham 3 times in a month, drawing once and losing twice. This is the point where he should have been replaced.

Don''t get me wrong, we have had worse teams, worse players but our approach was pitiful, basically cowering, hoping not to concede (including our own ineffectual possession to stop the other team having the ball, rather than possession that probes and asks questions or "attacks" the opposition) and nick a goal from 1 of 3 chances at the other end. Hughton constantly blamed the forwards for not having the quality to convert a high enough ratio or the defence for making errors, a lack of leadership in itself.

Lambert knew / Alex knows that we don''t have the quality to keep some of the worlds best strikers at bay for 90 minutes, so pretty much we have to score 1 or 2 goals to take points out of a game. For the quality of our attack vs the quality of defences / keepers we face means we have to play a style which is organised defensively but still make 10-15 chances per game - which will require a high work ethic.

[Monty13 2,234]

I''m already fond of Hughton, got us relegated which lead to us getting Alex Neil and a winning trip to Wembley.

Can''t thank him enough for both those things happening to Norwich because he wasn''t good enough.

[mrs miggins 0]

But didn''t Worthy have something like a 18% win ratio in the PL?

[Katie Borkins 1]

Hogesar nailed it as usual.

[Katie Borkins 1]

If we are going to talk about the ten game streak in season 1, let''s not forget the long winless streaks in both seasons, the awful away record, and the home defeat to Luton Town in the FA cup.

I said some couldn''t admit his failures so LDC posts about the ten game streak, the eleventh placed finish. Wtf?

He took the club backwards, wasted oodles of money on bad signings and made Saturday afternoons joyless.

Failure, failure, failure.

[Peanuts 150]

Nice enough chap but not got the bottle for football management sadly. Like a lot of people who spend years coaching before taking the main job he just isn''t made of the right stuff. Contrast with our current manager who jumped in with both feet at the first opportunity.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="lake district canary"]

FM7 - Substituting too late and the wrong players.  This mistake has been proven statistically to be wrong - his average time for changing players was 70 minutes.  Also the accusations that we never scored with a substitute were ridiculous, because we weren''t scoring at all, either with or without subs.

[/quote]Not that much here is genuinely funny but that - I hope deliberately - passes the test.

[lharman7 39]

[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]Hogeasar has it spot on in my view.

If you didn''t attend games (whoever you might be) you didn''t live it ! and yes we all have the choice, but I tell you what it, its bloody tough saying I''m going to stop going, even when you feel the way the majority did at the time.[/quote]

I don''t agree. I live in Australia and we get every premier league game live on Fox Sports (bit like sky/bt). I watched very nearly every game Hughton was in charge and I can tell you after his first season in charge I wanted the man gone if he hadn''t sorted out his dire football after 10 games into his second season.

It buggers belief how anyone can defend the man (ldc), changing the ethos of the team or not!

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Iharman7 you say you don''t agree, but reading your post you seem to agree completely ?

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]But didn''t Worthy have something like a 18% win ratio in the PL?[/quote]Looks like he did Miggsy, and whilst this can''t be brushed under the carpet, I do have to point out that he did it with our promoted squad and very few quality signings (Darren Ward, Graham Stuart and Simon Charlton to name just three), and he certainly didn''t have the squad that Hughton did when he took over, nor did he spend close to 30mil either...

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]The football was dire, the atmosphere was dire, the results were frequently dire and yet still some fans want to defend Hughton despite all this???[/quote]Now young Indy, how could you tell this when by your own admission you rarely ever go to games?However, I assume you''ll be there tonight as the game is in your home town. [:D]A match report would be good (and should be quick). [Y]

[lharman7 39]

[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]Iharman7 you say you don''t agree, but reading your post you seem to agree completely ?[/quote]

Lol, his first point about not attending games Lessingham.

[Indy_Bones 441]

Nice attempt to derail yet another thread with an unnecessary jibe at me again Lapps, but I''m not biting.You can think whatever you like about me, but at least I try to justify my opinions, rather than making inane or sarcastic comments because in truth you appear to have lost the ability to engage in a sensible debate anymore, which is pretty sad tbh...

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"]I said some couldn''t admit his failures so LDC posts about the ten game streak, the eleventh placed finish.[/quote]

Did you read the whole post, or just the bits that suit your agenda? 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Indy, you''re clearly talking rubbish. You made the comment that Hughton couldn''t manage his way out of a wet paper bag and then posted another load of rubbish defending that ridiculous opinion. You don''t get managers jobs at Newcastle, Birmingham, Norwich and Brighton unless you are half decent. One job you may be able to blag but four?

This isn''t reasonable debate is it? Anyway, I thought you didn''t post on the pink un anymore.....

[mrs miggins 0]

Indy_Bones wrote the following post at 25/08/2015 3:13 PM:Looks like he did Miggsy, and whilst this can''t be brushed under the carpet, I do have to point out that he did it with our promoted squad and very few quality signings (Darren Ward, Graham Stuart and Simon Charlton to name just three), and he certainly didn''t have the squad that Hughton did when he took over, nor did he spend close to 30mil either...

----------------------

So in fact Hughton wasn''t statistically the worst manager in the PL like you said. Also, you''re blaming Worthy for making poor signings but not letting him receive the blame that he deserves for those signings. In his first season Hughton didn''t make that many signings either, he just made better ones in his first season. Plus taking into account that unlike Worthy and Lambert (and AN) Hughton didn''t have the luxury of momentum from a previous promotion season which, if you haven''t bought many players, is vital for an unestablished, relegation fodder team.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Still haven''t answered my question from yesterday LDC.

Did you HONESTLY, on the whole, more often than not, enjoy the football under Chris Hughton? Did you take pride when we went away from home, waved the white flag and inevitably lost? Try answering the question HONESTLY.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]Nice attempt to derail yet another thread with an unnecessary jibe at me again Lapps, but I''m not biting.You can think whatever you like about me, but at least I try to justify my opinions, rather than making inane or sarcastic comments because in truth you appear to have lost the ability to engage in a sensible debate anymore, which is pretty sad tbh...[/quote]No jibe at all Indy. You passed a comment on the "dire atmosphere" which I don''t think you''re qualified to make and I simply responded to it, so how is that derailing the thread?I then assumed you would be attending tonight as it''s on your doorstep, a comment you choose to ignore.If your idea of "a sensible debate" is when your views go unchallenged, then I think you''ve come to the wrong place.....

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Bor Bor Bor"]I said some couldn''t admit his failures so LDC posts about the ten game streak, the eleventh placed finish.[/quote]

Did you read the whole post, or just the bits that suit your agenda? 

[/quote]

Says the man quoting made-up failures to suit his own failed agenda.

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Bor Bor Bor"]I said some couldn''t admit his failures so LDC posts about the ten game streak, the eleventh placed finish.[/quote]

Did you read the whole post, or just the bits that suit your agenda? 

[/quote]

Says the man quoting made-up failures to suit his own failed agenda.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Bor Bor Bor"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Bor Bor Bor"]I said some couldn''t admit his failures so LDC posts about the ten game streak, the eleventh placed finish.[/quote]Did you read the whole post, or just the bits that suit your agenda?  [/quote]

Says the man quoting made-up failures to suit his own failed agenda.[/quote]Not in the least. My list was a fairly honest appraisal, giving both sides of the argument.   If people see things in terms of black and white, it''s up to them,  but I''ll carry on seeing good things and not so good things - in other words taking account of all aspects, not just the ones that paint a one sided story.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Indy, you''re clearly talking rubbish. You made the comment that Hughton couldn''t manage his way out of a wet paper bag and then posted another load of rubbish defending that ridiculous opinion. You don''t get managers jobs at Newcastle, Birmingham, Norwich and Brighton unless you are half decent. One job you may be able to blag but four?

This isn''t reasonable debate is it? Anyway, I thought you didn''t post on the pink un anymore.....[/quote]And responses like this are the reason I post less than I used to here.Hughton was f**king s**t - end of, and no amount of discussion about Birmingham, Newcastle, Brighton, or any other f**king club for that matter will change that.Why the f**k are people trying to defend the indefensible, instead of just admitting that the guy completely f**ked up our club, getting worse and worse as the months went on...Pathetic.

[Katie Borkins 1]

I don''t need a balanced argument. It''s a message board for opinions and in my opinion he was a failure and should be remembered as such.

His win percentage, the dour football, our relegation and his squandering of our biggest transfer budget will be what I remember him for. That and his nice suits.

[mrs miggins 0]

Big face palm for Indy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI