A New Stadium at Broadland?

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="lake district canary"]Cons of a new stadium - Cost - £70 - £100m

[/quote]Fine. If the cost of 7,000 or 8,000 extra seats is £30m (the club''s figure) and a whole new purpose-built stadium would only cost between just over double that or at the very most a bit over three times that then you have come down on the side of a new stadium.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"]Cons of a new stadium - Cost - £70 - £100m

[/quote]Fine. If the cost of 7,000 or 8,000 extra seats is £30m (the club''s figure) and a whole new purpose-built stadium would only cost between just over double that or at the very most a bit over three times that then you have come down on the side of a new stadium.[/quote]

No I haven''t. The whole point of staying at CR is because of where it is and all that means.  Anyway, £30m isn''t £70m.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]Stuck in a mind set sounds like you, Lake. You refuse to acknowledge there could be any positives to a new stadium or any negatives to staying.

When this started, it was presented as a suggestion, something being considered. Then the attacks came so they were rebuffed. I''m not 100% sure, but I don''t think Tom has said the Broadland idea will happen and he''s all for it. He seems to be giving reasons why it could happen. I don''t recall him saying it will work, only that it very well could work. He hasn''t said this is our only hope for survival, but one that deserves serious consideration. Has he even said he himself wants it to happen? The attacks on him suggest he has, but I don''t think he has. Maybe i missed it.[/quote]You are right!I was against the NDR as it is going to lead to many thousands of new homes leading to worse traffic congestion in the city centre, and the council will then deter cars from going into the city centre.My concerns for NC staying at CR in the long-term are :A) NC doesn''t have much land remaining to develop so the potential of the club is becoming limited. That would put the club at a disadvantage under the financial fair play rules and make the club less attractive to future investors.B) The cost of increasing the capacity.C) Congestion and parking problems putting people off from going to matches and hiring the facilities.D) There isn''t much at the stadium for the local community on non-match days.However, now that the NDR (& Growth Triangle) have been given the go-ahead (less than a couple of months ago) there are numerous opportunities that could be of great benefit to NC.NC now have the opportunity to start with a blank piece of paper to come up with something really fantastic for their long-term future. It could be as simple as ''X capacity stadium that could easily be expanded in the future, lots of parking, good transport links, some pitches etc. for the community department to use'' etc.NC would be foolish to rule it out without even discussing all of the possibilities in detail with the council, UEA (and other education), Aviva, other sports clubs etc.[/quote]Yes, they would be foolish not to investigate all possibilities.   But the fundamental issue you still do not seem to grasp is the one of loyalty of fans and their families that go to CR - BECAUSE IT IS WHERE IT IS.  You stick it on the outskirts you are liable to lose families, people that shop/eat in the city and go to matches as families.  That will mean a stadium with empty seats and less fans buying season tickets because they know they can go whenever they want.  Its economical and social madness.  West Ham have greatly reduced their season ticket prices to get fans in their new stadium.  Will that work at Norwich? The season ticket prices are already quite good.

Football fans will only take so much. The family nature and convenience of walking to Carrow Rd from the centre is something you will lose at any new stadium.  

Your ideas simply ignore the nature of the club and the city.   I can accept new ideas might work on paper - but you still don''t acknowledge the good things about CR.  Your points can be countered - A)Land is there - between the City Stand and the main road.  B)The cost of increasing capacity is way cheaper than building a new stadiumC) Congestion and parking are not an issue for many thousands that go to CR. D) There wouldn''t be much for the local community to do in a new stadium - the pitch would need to be protected for matches and communty projects can be done anywhere if wanted - Colney?

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]lake district canary,The local council are planning to "significantly restrict" general traffic in the city centre once the NDR has been opened. This is to include closing some of the car parks and increasing the number of bus-only routes etc.[/quote]I''m sure the people at the council who are responsible for constructing the new 600 space car park on the corner of Rose Lane and Mountergate will be disappointed once they learn this news Tom.I''d hate to see all their hard work, as well as £7million go down the drain once they "significantly restrict" general traffic.

[BigFish 1,986]

Its a nice pipe dream but makes no sense whatsoever.

We are talking of all this effort and expense for the sake of a small few thousand extra seats - in financial terms it doesn''t stack up. I''m sure someone can drag up from the accounts what the book value is for CR, the stands and facilities and I am sure it is much greater than the asset value of the land for development.

Maybe before the Jarrolds stand and various improvements over recent years this would make some sense but the club has sunk significant investment that would now be lost.

In addition the fact that CR is going to be full this season would seem to indicate that it works pretty well

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

The recent sponsorship deal with Coral in respectof the barclay Stand suggests the club have not got any plans to move in the short term.......

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="tom cavendish"]lake district canary,The local council are planning to "significantly restrict" general traffic in the city centre once the NDR has been opened. This is to include closing some of the car parks and increasing the number of bus-only routes etc.[/quote]I''m sure the people at the council who are responsible for constructing the new 600 space car park on the corner of Rose Lane and Mountergate will be disappointed once they learn this news Tom.I''d hate to see all their hard work, as well as £7million go down the drain once they "significantly restrict" general traffic.[/quote]Planning permission for that car park was given in January but the NDR has only recently been given the go-ahead. A lot of the changes are dependant upon the NDR being opened. The council would like to build homes on the current Rose Lane car park. There are already plans for hundreds of new homes on the other side of the road (St Anne''s Wharf). The council will be looking to make most of Prince of Wales Road bus-only in both directions etc.. (which means quicker bus journeys to/from Broadland).The council want a lot more people to use public transport (by discouraging the use of cars). Part of the reason is due to air quality and that the city centre roads wouldn''t be able to cope with the planned growth in the population of greater Norwich. That is why I was against the NDR.

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="tom cavendish"]lake district canary,The local council are planning to "significantly restrict" general traffic in the city centre once the NDR has been opened. This is to include closing some of the car parks and increasing the number of bus-only routes etc.[/quote]I''m sure the people at the council who are responsible for constructing the new 600 space car park on the corner of Rose Lane and Mountergate will be disappointed once they learn this news Tom.I''d hate to see all their hard work, as well as £7million go down the drain once they "significantly restrict" general traffic.[/quote]Planning permission for that car park was given in January but the NDR has only recently been given the go-ahead. A lot of the changes are dependant upon the NDR being opened. The council would like to build homes on the current Rose Lane car park. There are already plans for hundreds of new homes on the other side of the road (St Anne''s Wharf). The council will be looking to make most of Prince of Wales Road bus-only in both directions etc.. (which means quicker bus journeys to/from Broadland).The council want a lot more people to use public transport (by discouraging the use of cars). Part of the reason is due to air quality and that the city centre roads wouldn''t be able to cope with the planned growth in the population of greater Norwich. That is why I was against the NDR.[/quote]Yes, homes will be developed on the current Rose Lane carpark, a loss of 200 spaces, but a net gain of 400 when the new car park is completed. I very much doubt that the NDR had anything to do with the new carpark being approved or not. The only thing it was waiting on at the time was govt funding, and they''d already started the Postwick Interchange, which would be a very wasteful bit of infrastructure without the NDR.As for the rest of this response around the plans to make Prince of Wales Road bus only, I''d love to know where this is documented - other than in your head.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"]Cons of a new stadium - Cost - £70 - £100m

[/quote]Fine. If the cost of 7,000 or 8,000 extra seats is £30m (the club''s figure) and a whole new purpose-built stadium would only cost between just over double that or at the very most a bit over three times that then you have come down on the side of a new stadium.[/quote]

That was my rough guess and it''s a totally ill informed one, as in plucked out of thin air. Having seen that the York one is to cost £30million for 8,000 seats, I think I am a long way off.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Faded Jaded wrote;

The recent sponsorship deal with Coral in respectof the barclay Stand suggests the club have not got any plans to move in the short term.......

I wonder what the odds are on a new stadium being built in the next 20 years ? might be tempted to have a punt.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"]the plans to make Prince of Wales Road bus only, I''d love to know where this is documented - other than in your head.[/quote]In the Norwich Area Transportation Strategy Implementation Plan it says:"Buses only in both directions along Prince of Wales Road" and "Rose Lane two way for general traffic". It states how these (and other measures) to re-route traffic away from the city centre are to be implemented after the NDR has opened.

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="tom cavendish"][quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"]the plans to make Prince of Wales Road bus only, I''d love to know where this is documented - other than in your head.[/quote]In the Norwich Area Transportation Strategy Implementation Plan it says:"Buses only in both directions along Prince of Wales Road" and "Rose Lane two way for general traffic". It states how these (and other measures) to re-route traffic away from the city centre are to be implemented after the NDR has opened.[/quote]I stand corrected.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Lake,

Your romanticized explanations are childishly simplistic and amusing. The team won''t move because walking is good exercise was hilarious. We could move elsewhere, but we''re gonna stay put because we want to give our supporters a much needed workout. Ha ha ha ha :)

People will flock to a new stadium to check it out. Once a new game day routine is worked out (HAH! - more much needed exercise?), people will adapt. Roomier concourse, more efficient concessions, better site lines, significantly more seats between the goal lines which can generate more income, more corporate boxes to generate huge amounts of income from fat cats, and the new stadium aura will attract people.

Do you honestly think people will stop going to games and not be replaced by others just because the team relocates within the Norwich area? If so, they really aren''t very committed to the team.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]Lake,

Your romanticized explanations are childishly simplistic and amusing. The team won''t move because walking is good exercise was hilarious. We could move elsewhere, but we''re gonna stay put because we want to give our supporters a much needed workout. Ha ha ha ha :)

People will flock to a new stadium to check it out. Once a new game day routine is worked out (HAH! - more much needed exercise?), people will adapt. Roomier concourse, more efficient concessions, better site lines, significantly more seats between the goal lines which can generate more income, more corporate boxes to generate huge amounts of income from fat cats, and the new stadium aura will attract people.

Do you honestly think people will stop going to games and not be replaced by others just because the team relocates within the Norwich area? If so, they really aren''t very committed to the team.[/quote]

Romance - or rather tradition - is something to be valued.  The cold hard facts often dictate that change MAY be advantageous - but the reality for a lot of people may be different - and the urge to put everyone on buses and bikes or into cars where before they could walk is not a good thing.  

There are many reasons why CR is good where it is - not least it''s closeness to the City centre, which is one of it''s best attributes - but people talking about possibly moving discount that completely. Why is  that?  What is wrong with keeping the club near the centre of the city?  Its managed ok there for 80 years - and there is still room for development.  I wonder why Newastle haven''t moved to a new stadium, despite moves over the years to do so, out of their city.....is it maybe because the powers that be know what an asset it is to have the stadium so close to the centre of things?   They spent millions redeveloping their city centre ground, despite logistical problems. 

Romance - or tradition - may not be popular with some people, but hearts and minds are what matters, not planning and developing grandeose schemes that only tick boxes rather than actually deal with what is good for the city and it''s people and the club and its fans. 

[E.L.F. 0]

LDC, why are you even bothering?

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]Lake,

Your romanticized explanations are childishly simplistic and amusing. The team won''t move because walking is good exercise was hilarious. We could move elsewhere, but we''re gonna stay put because we want to give our supporters a much needed workout. Ha ha ha ha :)

People will flock to a new stadium to check it out. Once a new game day routine is worked out (HAH! - more much needed exercise?), people will adapt. Roomier concourse, more efficient concessions, better site lines, significantly more seats between the goal lines which can generate more income, more corporate boxes to generate huge amounts of income from fat cats, and the new stadium aura will attract people.

Do you honestly think people will stop going to games and not be replaced by others just because the team relocates within the Norwich area? If so, they really aren''t very committed to the team.[/quote]"He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it".

Douglas Adams (1952-2001) The hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy

[tom cavendish 0]

LDC,Once the NDR has been built, the plans are to go-ahead with a big increase in the population, city centre parking closures, city centre road closures to cars, increases in parking charges etc. The long-term future is that CR will become a lot more inconvenient for a huge number of fans. In addition should the CR capacity be increased by 8,000 (and be expected to fill it) then it would add to congestion and parking problems.A lot of people will then start having to use the park and ride schemes (which involves additional journeys to get to CR). A major problem with that is they are shut for Sunday and evening matches. There are major problems ahead for NC if they stay at CR.However, if NC want a lot of stadium parking, next a lot of the new houses and big businesses employing lots of people, close to the NDR, and with good public transport links... that could be possible in the growth triangle.

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

More importantly, where will I get a pint (or 3) of real ale before the game out Broadland way?

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]LDC,Once the NDR has been built, the plans are to go-ahead with a big increase in the population, city centre parking closures, city centre road closures to cars, increases in parking charges etc. The long-term future is that CR will become a lot more inconvenient for a huge number of fans. In addition should the CR capacity be increased by 8,000 (and be expected to fill it) then it would add to congestion and parking problems.A lot of people will then start having to use the park and ride schemes (which involves additional journeys to get to CR). A major problem with that is they are shut for Sunday and evening matches. There are major problems ahead for NC if they stay at CR.However, if NC want a lot of stadium parking, next a lot of the new houses and big businesses employing lots of people, close to the NDR, and with good public transport links... that could be possible in the growth triangle.[/quote]

It all sounds so easy - but its not.  A new stadium sounds great until you realise that you are taking something away in the process.  You are risking taking away something that has come part of the city''s life and culture over many years - especially the last twenty or so years - the damage may not be measurable in amy statistical way, but it would be real.  The development that has taken place around CR - and the way it has been integrated into the city is not to be dismissed lightly - and I hope anyone bears this in mind when considering options in the future.    The centre of Norwich will always be accessible by bus, or by walking - even if people have to park a way away.  Ok, its not perfect, but ultimately, whoever is in charge who makes decisions on future options will have to weigh up both sides of the argument.  As I said before, Newcastle - who''s ground is right at the heart of their city - have looked at new schemes out of the centre ever since the 1960''s - but they always end up developing the ground where it is to its maximum potential - and they don''t worry about car parks - yet they fill the stadium. That still has to be done at Norwich, with the potential for building back over the old Carrow Rd to complete four equal stands. 

A new stadium may be something for many years in the future, when the new region is well established.  Planning it now would be unsettling to the club and very costly.  

For now though, imo, it is best to recognise that NCFC is doing quite nicely thank you where it is.  

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="tom cavendish"]LDC,Once the NDR has been built, the plans are to go-ahead with a big increase in the population, city centre parking closures, city centre road closures to cars, increases in parking charges etc. The long-term future is that CR will become a lot more inconvenient for a huge number of fans. But even more inconvenient for the vast number of City dwellers who would now have to cram on public transport to reach the new ground. The truth is that there is no possible way that public transport could accommodate those numbers within the context of matchtime.In addition should the CR capacity be increased by 8,000 (and be expected to fill it) then it would add to congestion and parking problems.You can increase the capacity by 8,000 or 80,000, there is still no chance of it being filled with any regularity or if ever, so that figure is meaningless.A lot of people will then start having to use the park and ride schemes (which involves additional journeys to get to CR). A major problem with that is they are shut for Sunday and evening matches.Another red herring, you don''t conjure up extra people simply by increasing capacity. Sunday and evening matches are no problem now and its unlikely that another couple of thousand on the gate will make any material difference. There are major problems ahead for NC if they stay at CR.They are neither major nor insurmountable and pale into insignificance compared with the problems created by leaving CR.However, if NC want a lot of stadium parking, next a lot of the new houses and big businesses employing lots of people, close to the NDR, and with good public transport links... that could be possible in the growth triangle.Why would they want extra parking when at present the vast majority can walk to and from their homes to CR. Those that are forced to drive don''t seem to be deterred by any problems.[/quote]A few years ago the club compiled a survey of how supporters got to the ground. It was found that most either walk or or use a combination of public transport and walking.There is no economically viable case for a new stadium at Broadland or anywhere else.Therefore there will be no new stadium at Broadland or anywhere else in any forseeable future.

[TimDim 0]

[quote user="E.L.F."]LDC, why are you even bothering?[/quote]I suspect it is because he has found a new Morty to wrestle with. Clearly the poor lad is slightly mad. His reasons change by the day, even the hour so there is little point in trying to have a reasoned debate with him either. His current waffle has moved from it not costing anything, as the council and Norwich Rugby club would pay for it all, to there now not being any parking in the city.This will have changed by Weds and we will will most likely have some nonsense about the council''s 10 year plan to restrict pavement use to the disabled and those with children under five which will mean it will be far better to visit a stadium in Broadland. What happened to the ones at the Norfolk Show ground, the UEA or even the airport we are not told. My money is on a new stadium at Snetterton with the club sharing a pitch with a race track around it helped by grants from Bernie Eccleston, and the Highways dept who are keen for more use of the new dualled A11. The club will be able to use the helicopter landing pad to get to away matches and away teams and supporters can cut their journey times whilst then using the saved time to enjoy a corporate morning (and a bit of early afternoon). Norwich speedway will be revived and dog racing as well, though not at the same time. Or when the football is on. The floodlights can be reversible so as to save electricity for the 600 new houses being built which will be sold by the club to part fund the stadium and the new monorail from Norwich to Thetford. Tom Cavendish, a visionary of our time.

[tom cavendish 0]

LDC,The reason why Norwich City is so important to the city is not because it plays at CR. It is because it is the only professional football club in the whole of Norfolk. Norfolk doesn''t even have a top class rugby or cricket club.The sporting focus would remain on NC regardless of whether or not it plays at CR or a few miles down the road.Regarding the history of CR it is a part of NC history which includes The Nest etc. CR stadium itself isn''t very convenient for many people on non-matchdays so NC have outlets in the city centre. The outlets are not just there for retail purposes. They are to give NC a better presence right in the heart of the city centre. They could continue to do so even if the club moved to a new stadium.

[The ghost of Michael Theoklitos 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="tom cavendish"]LDC,Once the NDR has been built, the plans are to go-ahead with a big increase in the population, city centre parking closures, city centre road closures to cars, increases in parking charges etc. The long-term future is that CR will become a lot more inconvenient for a huge number of fans. But even more inconvenient for the vast number of City dwellers who would now have to cram on public transport to reach the new ground. The truth is that there is no possible way that public transport could accommodate those numbers within the context of matchtime.In addition should the CR capacity be increased by 8,000 (and be expected to fill it) then it would add to congestion and parking problems.You can increase the capacity by 8,000 or 80,000, there is still no chance of it being filled with any regularity or if ever, so that figure is meaningless.A lot of people will then start having to use the park and ride schemes (which involves additional journeys to get to CR). A major problem with that is they are shut for Sunday and evening matches.Another red herring, you don''t conjure up extra people simply by increasing capacity. Sunday and evening matches are no problem now and its unlikely that another couple of thousand on the gate will make any material difference. There are major problems ahead for NC if they stay at CR.They are neither major nor insurmountable and pale into insignificance compared with the problems created by leaving CR.However, if NC want a lot of stadium parking, next a lot of the new houses and big businesses employing lots of people, close to the NDR, and with good public transport links... that could be possible in the growth triangle.Why would they want extra parking when at present the vast majority can walk to and from their homes to CR. Those that are forced to drive don''t seem to be deterred by any problems.[/quote]A few years ago the club compiled a survey of how supporters got to the ground. It was found that most either walk or or use a combination of public transport and walking.There is no economically viable case for a new stadium at Broadland or anywhere else.Therefore there will be no new stadium at Broadland or anywhere else in any forseeable future.[/quote]Ricardo - All of these points have been made by you, me, and various other posters over the last 20 pages - most, if not all valid points (particularly around transport) without rebuttal.We''d have better luck convincing a brick wall.My wish now is that we all stop rising to the bait (I''m as bad as anyone), and let this thread move down the board and into obscurity.....

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="TimDim"][quote user="E.L.F."]LDC, why are you even bothering?[/quote]

I suspect it is because he has found a new Morty to wrestle with. Clearly the poor lad is slightly mad. His reasons change by the day, even the hour so there is little point in trying to have a reasoned debate with him either. His current waffle has moved from it not costing anything, as the council and Norwich Rugby club would pay for it all, to there now not being any parking in the city.This will have changed by Weds and we will will most likely have some nonsense about the council''s 10 year plan to restrict pavement use to the disabled and those with children under five which will mean it will be far better to visit a stadium in Broadland. What happened to the ones at the Norfolk Show ground, the UEA or even the airport we are not told. My money is on a new stadium at Snetterton with the club sharing a pitch with a race track around it helped by grants from Bernie Eccleston, and the Highways dept who are keen for more use of the new dualled A11. The club will be able to use the helicopter landing pad to get to away matches and away teams and supporters can cut their journey times whilst then using the saved time to enjoy a corporate morning (and a bit of early afternoon). Norwich speedway will be revived and dog racing as well, though not at the same time. Or when the football is on. The floodlights can be reversible so as to save electricity for the 600 new houses being built which will be sold by the club to part fund the stadium and the new monorail from Norwich to Thetford. Tom Cavendish, a visionary of our time.
[/quote]

Now that you have posted in the manner of your old self all that is needed is you to revert to calling yourself City1st. [;)]

[TimDim 0]

I may be many things but I have never posted as City 1st. And you were a copper. Thank god for us all that you are now an ex copper.

[tom cavendish 0]

[quote user="ricardo"]A few years ago the club compiled a survey of how supporters got to the ground. It was found that most either walk or or use a combination of public transport and walking.[/quote]Public transport would still be available if NC moved to a new stadium, so how many people in the survey actually walked all of the way from home to CR and back?

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="TimDim"]I may be many things but I have never posted as City 1st.

[/quote]

Yeah, yeah whatever City1st. So you were not RobinGit and before that Scout_Hat and before that City1st ? No of course you weren''t.

[Katie Borkins 1]

There is no credible business case for a stadium move.

At the risk of repeating myself.

Show me the financials - how we as a club are better off, how it improves our financial reality. 5 years, 10 years - I don''t mind really, but show me the numbers.

Here''s a clue - I don''t think you can.

[E.L.F. 0]

[quote user="TimDim"]I may be many things but I have never posted as City 1st. And you were a copper. Thank god for us all that you are now an ex copper.[/quote]

Speaking of coppers, two more series confirmed for Ripper Street. Now that Downton is fading into the sunset, things are looking up. Then YM breaks his foots......sigh.

[E.L.F. 0]

*foot