Jonas Gutierrez

[SwindonCanary 457]

Would you have him back ?  http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jonas-gutierrez-training-alone-argentina-7579466

[Haggerdoo 6]

No thanks - wouldn''t add anything to what we''ve already got

[norfolkngood 1,174]

No in my opinion that is what is wrong with clubs we need to sign younger players that will play in the championship this year and improve into premiership players hopefully for next year not older journeymen who get injury prone how many younger players could you pay with Gutierrez wages ? 3 or 4 ?

[# 0]

NO!

[ZLF 335]

I wouldnt have a problem,  all sides need a balance of experience and youth.  

 

O''Neil is an example of a good experienced signing; at def mid we had one quality player in tettey who struggles to get beyond c20 performances a season and another in BJ who is has yet to convince that he is up to the job.    A winning mentality, leadership from deep and experience in this league makes him a sound signing.

    

However do we need another wide midfielder?   I think we are well stocked with a balanced selection of talent, youth and experience - so  simply not needed. 

[chicken 0]

[quote user="norfolkngood"]No in my opinion that is what is wrong with clubs we need to sign younger players that will play in the championship this year and improve into premiership players hopefully for next year not older journeymen who get injury prone how many younger players could you pay with Gutierrez wages ? 3 or 4 ?[/quote]In 13 years he has only played for three clubs plus us on loan. Hardly a journeyman. I thought he played well in the games he played in last season. I very much doubt he would drop down to the championship again. A quality player on his day, out of favour with Pardew - I do feel for him.

[Feedthewolf 5,885]

Had we not have signed O''Neil, I actually wouldn''t mind having him back – was never going to shine as a bit-part loanee in a failing team. He''s dependable, versatile, experienced, and an Argentina international – not many of those in the Championship. I think he''d actually be a good squad member once he got up to full fitness, especially if we lose Fer.

[ROBFLECK 134]

No thank you...

[pablofarmer 0]

He''s not a bad player, but after his twitter rant at Adams end of last season, no.

[Feedthewolf 5,885]

[quote user="pablofarmer"]He''s not a bad player, but after his twitter rant at Adams end of last season, no.[/quote]I''d forgotten about that! Guess that makes it a non-starter, then.

[a1canary 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

...another in BJ who is has yet to convince that he is up to the job.    A winning mentality, leadership from deep and experience in this league makes him a sound signing.

[/quote]

I think that is very unfair on BJ - what does he have to do!? The guy leaves everything out there every game and imo deserved pots last year for being one of the ones who kept fighting hardest. You might argue about whether he is "up to the job" in the premier league (although he did enough imo to show that he is for a certain role) but i don''t think there''s any argument at all that he would be a major asset in the Championship who i would take all day long over Gutierrez. I think he could add a more regular goal threat to his game but he can continue to improve on that front. He has already improved in terms of assists last year, often playing excellent searching passes from deep, we all know he can tackle and form a formidable shield in front of the back four, he''s passionate and commited, a team player... I''d actually put more faith in BJ than Tettey to be honest. BJ scored more goals and assists than Tettey and played more games. Having both of them is a real bonus in my view. Gutierrez? Not needed.

[Feedthewolf 5,885]

[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

...another in BJ who is has yet to convince that he is up to the job.    A winning mentality, leadership from deep and experience in this league makes him a sound signing.

[/quote]

I think that is very unfair on BJ - what does he have to do!? The guy leaves everything out there every game and imo deserved pots last year for being one of the ones who kept fighting hardest. You might argue about whether he is "up to the job" in the premier league (although he did enough imo to show that he is for a certain role) but i don''t think there''s any argument at all that he would be a major asset in the Championship who i would take all day long over Gutierrez. I think he could add a more regular goal threat to his game but he can continue to improve on that front. He has already improved in terms of assists last year, often playing excellent searching passes from deep, we all know he can tackle and form a formidable shield in front of the back four, he''s passionate and commited, a team player... I''d actually put more faith in BJ than Tettey to be honest. BJ scored more goals and assists than Tettey and played more games. Having both of them is a real bonus in my view. Gutierrez? Not needed.

[/quote]Johnson cannot pass accurately enough. He tries to play passes way beyond his technical capabilities. Yes, sometimes he makes them stick, but that''s just the law of averages. Compare his pass completion statistics to Tettey''s and it tells you everything you need to know. If Johnson played to his strengths and just laid the ball simple he''d be a much better player. Valuable squad member, but not worthy of a starting position until he can use his head a bit more with regard to his distribution.

[GJP 79]

I''ll be interested to see how much Johnson has sharpened up for 3 years in the Prem.

 

If anyone watched him playing for Leeds he was never that great. He was for them what he has been for us - a trier but lacking a bit of quality.

 

He does give you a bit of physical presence in the middle of the park and he is quite decent at winning headers in midfield and we''ve had much worse players than him at the club. But his slowness on the turn is a problem and he''s actually not that great at spotting the danger.

 

Hopefully maybe a little more time on the ball at this level will help his passing.

[BRIAAAAAAN! 0]

Us dudes don''t need another slow winger afta gettin rid of one.

This page translates brilliantly on gizoogle by the way:

http://www.gizoogle.net/tranzizzle.php?search=http%3A%2F%2Fservices.pinkun.com%2Fforums%2Fpinkun%2Fcs%2Fforums%2F3157660%2FShowPost.aspx&se=Go+Git+Dis+Shiznit

[Big A 0]

no way. he''s a tw*t whose biggest achievement last season was a tweet.

Training alone is all he is useful for.

[ZLF 335]

[quote user="a1canary"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

...another in BJ who is has yet to convince that he is up to the job.    A winning mentality, leadership from deep and experience in this league makes him a sound signing.

[/quote]

I think that is very unfair on BJ - what does he have to do!? The guy leaves everything out there every game 

[/quote]

 

Effort does not equal quality, I would leave it all in the pitch and could follow a ball around all day(well maybe 10 mins) but you dont wont me out there.   Fighters?   without a footballing brain that jjust makes hima boxer or wrestler. 

 

ineffective passing,   poor tracking of runners (the volume of midfield players scoring against us because we watch them run past BJ is shocking) less that half the tackles won than the lazy Fer.     Other than run (and sometimes head)what does he actually do well?   I dont think its harsh at all;  he has been the same for three seasons now... he wont get better.     The only hope is his repeated errors are less costly a league down,   but thats about the opponent not whether BJ has improved. 

[Nuff Said 5,966]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="a1canary"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

...another in BJ who is has yet to convince that he is up to the job.    A winning mentality, leadership from deep and experience in this league makes him a sound signing.

[/quote]

I think that is very unfair on BJ - what does he have to do!? The guy leaves everything out there every game and imo deserved pots last year for being one of the ones who kept fighting hardest. You might argue about whether he is "up to the job" in the premier league (although he did enough imo to show that he is for a certain role) but i don''t think there''s any argument at all that he would be a major asset in the Championship who i would take all day long over Gutierrez. I think he could add a more regular goal threat to his game but he can continue to improve on that front. He has already improved in terms of assists last year, often playing excellent searching passes from deep, we all know he can tackle and form a formidable shield in front of the back four, he''s passionate and commited, a team player... I''d actually put more faith in BJ than Tettey to be honest. BJ scored more goals and assists than Tettey and played more games. Having both of them is a real bonus in my view. Gutierrez? Not needed.

[/quote]Johnson cannot pass accurately enough. He tries to play passes way beyond his technical capabilities. Yes, sometimes he makes them stick, but that''s just the law of averages. Compare his pass completion statistics to Tettey''s and it tells you everything you need to know. If Johnson played to his strengths and just laid the ball simple he''d be a much better player. Valuable squad member, but not worthy of a starting position until he can use his head a bit more with regard to his distribution.[/quote]I can''t let yet another reference to Tettey''s passing stats go by. How many times are these passes too hard and to the nearest player who is unable to do anything with it, so chances are it goes straight back again? Far too many IMHO. If stats measured quality or productivity then fair enough, but without context they often mean little or nothing. Granted Tettey had some good games when he came back last season, and he scored THAT goal, and I''ll happily admit he played well when my previous opinion was that I would pick almost anyone else over him, but he''s not all that, despite that he now seems to think he''s too good for the Championship.

[mrs miggins 0]

Nuff Said wrote the following post at 08/08/2014 2:22 PM:

I can''t let yet another reference to Tettey''s passing stats go by. How many times are these passes too hard and to the nearest player who is unable to do anything with it, so chances are it goes straight back again? Far too many IMHO. If stats measured quality or productivity then fair enough, but without context they often mean little or nothing.

Granted Tettey had some good games when he came back last season, and he scored THAT goal, and I''ll happily admit he played well when my previous opinion was that I would pick almost anyone else over him, but he''s not all that, despite that he now seems to think he''s too good for the Championship.

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I think the point is that we have two defensive midfielder in Johnson and Tettey and although Tettey may not be absolutely brilliant, he''s better than Johnson by quite a way in all aspects of the game (except heading perhaps?)

[chicken 0]

[quote user="mrs miggins"]Nuff Said wrote the following post at 08/08/2014 2:22 PM:

I can''t let yet another reference to Tettey''s passing stats go by. How many times are these passes too hard and to the nearest player who is unable to do anything with it, so chances are it goes straight back again? Far too many IMHO. If stats measured quality or productivity then fair enough, but without context they often mean little or nothing.

Granted Tettey had some good games when he came back last season, and he scored THAT goal, and I''ll happily admit he played well when my previous opinion was that I would pick almost anyone else over him, but he''s not all that, despite that he now seems to think he''s too good for the Championship.

----------------------------------------------

I think the point is that we have two defensive midfielder in Johnson and Tettey and although Tettey may not be absolutely brilliant, he''s better than Johnson by quite a way in all aspects of the game (except heading perhaps?)[/quote]Sorry but that''s wrong.Johnson is better at shooting, free kicks, long range passing and his heading. He is technically, with a ball at his feet, a better player than Tettey.Tettey is quicker, anticipates a little better and marginally harder working - however all of those things a good player doth not make. He isn''t really able to beat a player in front of him and rarely shows any sign of actual skill so to speak. You don''t see him drop a shoulder, or try a piece of individual skill.That''s not to say that both players don''t have their place but I personally feel that Johnson is a better all round player. His distribution statistically may be worse but that on it''s own doesn''t reflect that he played more games last season 35 to Tettey''s 22, nor the opposition we played in those games.I personally feel that there are perhaps only one or two midfielders who can really hold their heads up and say they did their best last season. IMHO Howson was probably the most consistent in the role he was asked to play. Redmond is another but even then he was a little hot headed at times, took wild swings rather than calm crosses etc. However he has the excuse of youth and inexperience.The rest should be taking a look at themselves and asking what more is it they need to do. Tettey has slightly annoyed me with his sentiments that he feels he should be playing at a higher level. He did nothing last season to suggest that he deserved another season in the premier league. That goal was the first in 48 appearances over two seasons. His passing needs to be better, more adventurous and his forward play needs to be quicker and sharper.

[mrs miggins 0]

I''ll give you BJ''s got a better header on him...look at this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRG5ZechACM

But free kicks-who knows

Long range passing, BJ occasionally completes the long pass he goes for compared to Tettey who could only be judged on this if he tried it a little more, his job (which should also be BJ''s) is to get the ball off the opposition and pass it to more adventurous players, its not his job to find those long balls like gerrard does because its not his game...unfortunately Johnson thinks it is. BJ''s got great vision but just lacks the technical ability to make the pass he sees. Perhaps the difference in ability isn''t as clear cut as I made out to be, but I think its pretty obvious who the better player is as a defensive midfielder like they both are, I find Johnson far too lazy compared to Tettey to be truly effective as a strong defensive midfielder.

[chicken 0]

I''m afraid that I have seen Tettey play hot potato for too often to ever suggest he is clearly the better player - at any role.Gary Holt has gone down for the role he played in the team back then, but even his passing was better than Tettey. I distinctly remember a number of occaisions in the last couple of seasons when we suddenly had a break on. Tettey drove forward powerfully, gave the ball to Howson who would return it when Tettey was in more space, Tettey would look up, see the penalty box and quickly pass it wide to Snodgrass who wasn''t always expecting it and was three feet away. Being a bit panicked, he''d give it back to Tettey. Tettey now really becoming quite nervous of the penalty area would try and give it back again or play it to Russell Martin who had arrived to back them up. By this time, the counter attack had become a small game of hot potato with Tettey appearing unwilling to turn and try anything more adventurous than a 5yard ball.What I like about Johnson is he does try the more daring balls. They don''t always come off but sometimes they do. Sometimes, in some situations that is the best option you have. I have been in positions where I have no easy ball, no decent short ball and the knowledge that losing it five feet away could play two or three of my own players out of the game. Instead you have to look up and try and pick out a more adventurous ball - should it fail, it''s better further up the pitch where your players are still facing it and possibly have a better chance of getting into position.Johnson has taken several free kicks with thunderous gusto, I couldn''t imagine Tettey doing that. I actually think Johnson is much better going forward. He has not always been seen as a defensive midfielder - it''s a job he has played for us though becuase his all round game suits it. He really isn''t as poor as you are making out. Tettey certainly isn''t as good as he is making out. For my money I think Gary Holt was better than Tettey is now.

[mrs miggins 0]

It''s not that I think he poor, I think he''s a great squad player to have and i''m glad we have him this season, but I think when you have a limited ability like the both of them do, for me i''d rather have tettey in the team any day of the week because he does his job of getting the ball back, acts quickly unlike BJ. The point you make about Johnson being more of an attacking threat is true because he does try those long balls, it worked a few times as you say last season, but as a defensive midfielder personally I think Tettey is some way ahead of him, although it would be nice as you say to see Tettey trying to be more adventurous, I''m not sure he can make those great passes because we never see him do it unlike BJ who we know can''t do it.

[Dubai Mark 0]

It never stops surprising me the negativity towards BJ........he put in some good shifts in the EPL and will be a stand out this season.....I actually prefer him to Tettey and would rather have him alongside me in a battle than many other.....oops, oh this thread was about Gutierrez..

[mrs miggins 0]

why does it surprise you?I don''t think anyones saying that he''s a bad player, I think he''s a very valuable squad player, but that he''s quite limited like most defensive midfielders at this level and that he tried too many things that he can''t really do. Get the ball, keep it simple and ''pass it on'' (remember that ad?)

[chicken 0]

The problem is that in this day and age, you can''t be a good footballer and only pass the ball five yards. Makelele was a great player, he rarely went further up the pitch than the edge of the center circle. Johnson isn''t that player. He has more to his game. Tettey is a defensive midfielder because that is all he is capable of really. Hard work, the odd rare goal and tackling.As said before, none of the midfield really covered themselves in glory last season otherwise in the current climate teams would be throwing money at us for them left right and center.As someone who has played and managed teams I would want Johnson over Tettey each time. Strangely - their best performances came when they played together in the same team. When Johnson wasn''t asked to be doing ALL of the defensive work and where Tettey wasn''t being asked to do anything flashy.A key word you said before is vision. I don''t think Tettey even looks up enough. That''s one of the reasons his distribution is poor. Johnson does, and he makes better passes - and he can hit decent long balls, perhaps not with regularity of Gerrard but if he did he''d be playing for Man Utd after us making enough money to double the size of the stadium.Let''s see what Adams makes of them shall we?

[mrs miggins 0]

chicken wrote the following post at 08/08/2014 6:11 PM:

Johnson isn''t that player. He has more to his game

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mmm, he thinks he has more to his game. Like you say, he looks up and has great vision, he can see the pass but can''t make it.

chicken wrote the following post at 08/08/2014 6:11 PM:

A key word you said before is vision. I don''t think Tettey even looks up enough. That''s one of the reasons his distribution is poor. Johnson does, and he makes better passes - and he can hit decent long balls, perhaps not with regularity of Gerrard but if he did he''d be playing for Man Utd after us making enough money to double the size of the stadium.

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You say that Tettey''s distribution is poor...well its not, he doesn''t try the fancy long passes because, like you say, he doesn''t look up, but his distribution is fine as he only gets it and lays it off to someone more creative (perhaps i''m misinterpreting it and you mean that he''s got poor distribution because he doesn''t make enough things happen like BJ tries to do). Also when you say that Johnson makes the better passes, he tries to make the better passes, he sees them, but most of the time he can''t pull them off.

chicken wrote the following post at 08/08/2014 6:11 PM:

Let''s see what Adams makes of them shall we?

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I actually think BJ will play more than Tettey this season for a few reasons; he''s played in this league before and knows the rough style of play, he''s played a full season playing saturday-tuesday-saturday-tuesday and has proved he''s consistent. Furthermore, he tries those balls over the top and with fast strikers like we have, it makes perfect sense and is why i''d play him in a lot of the games this season against weaker opposition. I think up against a premier league team or harder opposition, personally I''d want Tettey in there just to break up play because this isn''t really what BJ can do that naturally.

[Tommie Tippee 0]

Jonas Gutierrez must surely rank as one of the most pointless loan signings ever. Waste of a good wage

[a1canary 0]

Well the conclusion to this debate afterthe Watford game seems no clearer other than to say that it''s further evidence that they play well when they are both on the pitch. Oh and that BJ IS more valuable to us than many give him credit for.

I''ve also noticed that and that when one gets injured the other often seems to have a poor game on their own.

[Johnny Stump 1]

Going by the pinkun yardstick for fancy foreign names, it''s a yes from me.

[Feedthewolf 5,885]

[quote user="a1canary"]Well the conclusion to this debate afterthe Watford game seems no clearer other than to say that it''s further evidence that they play well when they are both on the pitch. Oh and that BJ IS more valuable to us than many give him credit for.

I''ve also noticed that and that when one gets injured the other often seems to have a poor game on their own.[/quote]As someone who criticised BJ for his passing earlier in this thread, I will concede that he was outstanding yesterday. He played lots of really expansive passes that found their target, as well as doing his usual tough and energetic stint in the centre of the park. If he can carry on in that vein he will indeed be a real asset for us this season.