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lake district canary

Are players real people -

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- or toys to be played with?   When I was a kid I had the game  called "Subbuteo" which (for those that missed out on it through age or deprivation) was a game where you had little toy players and flicked them around on a green baize pitch with a giant size football and goals with nets.  I had Norwich colours - of course (actually I think it was Brazil, but it was close enough for me at the time) and a blue team which I painted  white because I didn''t want to think I was playing Ipswich all the time.    But the Norwich players were the Norwich team at the time.   Keelan, Bone, Foggo etc etc.  Actual figures playing with an actual ball using actual goals with nets.

I''ve had a go on virtual games with computers etc, but I have to say,  whenever I do, the players and the action don''t seem real.  I think back to the subbuteo game and think that it was much more fun, much more real and more sociable.    I know you can still get Subbuteo, so I suppose the question I am asking is -FIFA 13 or  Subbuteo??

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Football Manager for me.  Had a Sinclair Spectrum version in about 1983, then C64, Atari ST (briefly) and then PC since 1996.  Love the game.  And I still like to buy the best Ipswich Town player, stick him in the reserves and fine him 2 weeks wages for no reason.

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Sadly i''ve got a laptop from the dark ages that can barely handle steam (google is your friend) let alone FM. So I''m stuck on FIFA. I hate the online play on that thing so much, because pace beats every other thing.

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When I was a young teenager. Within our group of mates one had a 6ft snooker table in his garage. He also marked out a football pitch on it and few of us would have knock out tournies of subbuteo. Great fun, until arguments broke out on whether you played a ''drag pass''.

''Drag pass''? We made simplified rules where you flicked for a shot on goal. But passing you were allowed to shove the player with a flat finger. So a sharp shove easily developed into scrape across the pitch over a length of a few cms.

''Foul! That was a bleeding drag. You scraped that player for at least 5cms''.

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I''ve not played a computer game for years, but for me it was Pro Evo Soccer. Tournaments with mates were the best, with yourself edited in as the star player. The rule was you had a certain amount to edit your stats in total, so you had to choose whether to give yourself pace, or shooting power, or skill etc. then unleash yourself against the worlds best and your mates creations.

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As much as I love the nostalgic tone of this post, I''d like to address the OP''s original question: "Are players real people or toys to be played with?". This is a great philosophical questions that I will not get into, since few would actually read the response. So I''ll keep it brief. Working with the frame of reference generated by the space-time frame we have been conditioned to; Players are people which are sometimes treated as toys and there are some people who treat toys as though they might be people. It is a symptom of a deep psychological disconnect from reality that is brought on by existing in an unenlightened state of consciousness associated with the ignorance found in the human condition.A question with just as much validity would be, "Is a football played, or does the football play the game?".

As a footnote: Imagination is a dangerous thing. Creativity is a wonderful thing. Learn the difference and you''ll save yourself at least a decade.

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I Loved Subbuteo and was an age where a few of my friends had it..we all played lock, stock by the rules.. apart from my friend Tim, who played by the "Tim" rules... oddly he used to always win.. the one i time me and his brother both beat him these rules magically disapeared!

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When I saw the title I thought that this was going to be an entirely different thread. I''m not sure I even understand LDC''s point but I thought he was going to address the callous and disgusting nature of some fans.

I thought he would be having a go at the "get rid" brigade who regard players as toys or characters in a computer game to be thrown away when you are bored or fed up. I''m old school and proud of it. I wouldn''t treat our club with any less respect than the people I employ. That''s the key word "people". Our players are real. They are people with feelings, faults, pride and dignity as much as any poster on here.

To dismiss the efforts of someone who has played here and given his best with phrases like "Simple. Not good enough. Get rid" is pathetic and disrespectful.

More tellingly perhaps, they are men with wives, homes, children and families. They can''t just move their whole lives because some clowns think they are in a computer game and people can adjust their lives to suit.

Of course, football is a harsh and ruthless employer. Players are sold, sacked or have their careers terminated when a contract comes to an end. You would need a heart of stone or no heart at all not to feel sympathy for Simeon. It''s tough, it''s football. Thanks for all you''ve done and good luck.

But "get rid"? Perhaps your bosses should decide to get rid of you. Perhaps then you''d know the difference between the reality of having a home and family and losing your job. Perhaps you''d know the difficulty of having to move to another region to get work.

Perhaps you could leave the virtual world and rejoin this one.

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Subbuteo every day for me. We used to have a league. A game of skill, tactics and erm ........ Glue !!

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I''m 21 years of age and I also played subbuteo. My dad brought me the Norwich players but it was a ''treat'' to play with them at the time, as I was young and the figures were fragile. However, I did enjoy playing it.

To say Subbuteo is more real than Fifa 13 is ridiculous though. Fifa has far more player information, different forms of tactics and every player in every league In the world is in it. (obviously the main ones). Pace isn''t just everything, it''s down to the individuals style of play, some like passing, some like ''long balls''. You get a far better range of opposition and teams and players and even the refs can be controversial at times.

Both great games though. Fifa 13 gets my vote any day.

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]When I saw the title I thought that this was going to be an entirely different thread. I''m not sure I even understand LDC''s point but I thought he was going to address the callous and disgusting nature of some fans.

I thought he would be having a go at the "get rid" brigade who regard players as toys or characters in a computer game to be thrown away when you are bored or fed up. [/quote]

You''re not a million miles off, CC.   I started out thinking something like that, but my thinking turned to my pet hate - computer games.   Subbuteo is a game of physical skill - if played properly.   FIFA 13 is a game of  pictures moving about on a screen, all the clever stuff being done by computer chips and impersonal electric impulses.    Yes, it involves some hand eye co-ordination, even mentally stimulate, but the skill in Subbuteo is real and involves techniques that can be learned like in a real sport.     We all spend too much time at our keyboards, for work, for communicating, for finding out about things, for banking, for buying things, for music, for tv etc etc.   If I played computer games as well - and I know a lot of people do - I think I would be at my keyboard  nearly every waking moment.    Hence the question,  computer game or real game?    Computerised players or real players?  Computerised life or real life? 

Computers offer so much but if we are not careful they can take over everything we do. Sometimes the edges get blurred and if we go too far down the road of  thinking that what we see on our screens is real, then we get to that question again - are players real people or have they, to some people, become just part of the virtual world?   All a bit too heavy maybe, but the simpler question is there somewhere -  fifa 13 or subbuteo?  Virtual life or real life?   Or maybe computers have already taken us all over...............

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="CambridgeCanary"]When I saw the title I thought that this was going to be an entirely different thread. I''m not sure I even understand LDC''s point but I thought he was going to address the callous and disgusting nature of some fans.

I thought he would be having a go at the "get rid" brigade who regard players as toys or characters in a computer game to be thrown away when you are bored or fed up. [/quote]

You''re not a million miles off, CC.   I started out thinking something like that, but my thinking turned to my pet hate - computer games.   Subbuteo is a game of physical skill - if played properly.   FIFA 13 is a game of  pictures moving about on a screen, all the clever stuff being done by computer chips and impersonal electric impulses.    Yes, it involves some hand eye co-ordination, even mentally stimulate, but the skill in Subbuteo is real and involves techniques that can be learned like in a real sport.     We all spend too much time at our keyboards, for work, for communicating, for finding out about things, for banking, for buying things, for music, for tv etc etc.   If I played computer games as well - and I know a lot of people do - I think I would be at my keyboard  nearly every waking moment.    Hence the question,  computer game or real game?    Computerised players or real players?  Computerised life or real life? 

Computers offer so much but if we are not careful they can take over everything we do. Sometimes the edges get blurred and if we go too far down the road of  thinking that what we see on our screens is real, then we get to that question again - are players real people or have they, to some people, become just part of the virtual world?   All a bit too heavy maybe, but the simpler question is there somewhere -  fifa 13 or subbuteo?  Virtual life or real life?   Or maybe computers have already taken us all over...............

[/quote]I can safely say, from the many beatings at the hands of my nieces and nephews over the past 20 years, computer games of football take a lot of skill and practice, and the new generation of games has to be learned properly before you can approach anything like a reasonable standard of play.  Pass placement, weighting, control, first touch, off the ball movement - all are in the hands of the FIFA gamer.  And interestingly, I would argue a young player could learn a lot about how professionals pass and move and make runs off the ball through playing FIFA much more than they would through Subbuteo.

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[quote user="lake district canary"] Subbuteo is a game of physical skill - if played properly...[/quote]How many weeks training does it take to prepare for a game LDC, and where is the nearest Subbuteo training pitch to you? [H]

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="lake district canary"] Subbuteo is a game of physical skill - if played properly...[/quote]How many weeks training does it take to prepare for a game LDC, and where is the nearest Subbuteo training pitch to you? [H][/quote]I had Grant Holt in my Subbuteo team.  Broke three bloody fingers trying to get him to track back.

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If I could figure our how to copy a picture in here from the ipad I''d show you my excellent subbuteo cuff links from my wedding.

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[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"]I can safely say, from the many beatings at the hands of my nieces and nephews over the past 20 years, computer games of football take a lot of skill and practice, and the new generation of games has to be learned properly before you can approach anything like a reasonable standard of play.  Pass placement, weighting, control, first touch, off the ball movement - all are in the hands of the FIFA gamer.  And interestingly, I would argue a young player could learn a lot about how professionals pass and move and make runs off the ball through playing FIFA much more than they would through Subbuteo.[/quote]

"The new generation of games has to be learned"- so that means spending even more time at the computer learning about something that is......on the computer.     I''m not going to deny that there are good things about  computer games, just that the overall effect of doing everything on a computer can take more time away from what could be achieved away from the computer - and in some cases lead to an unhealthy reliance on them.  If people can''t get about so much, computers can be a great way of  interacting, playing and learning.   My concern would be for younger, healthy people who spend 16 hours  a day looking at a screen of some kind, whether its   playing games, texting, buying, selling, watching tv, homework, research, studying, writing letters, banking, filming, facebooking...........

I''ve never got into computer games, though I have tried, so for me it would be Subbuteo.........Foggo, Keelan, Holt, RVW...........

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"]I can safely say, from the many beatings at the hands of my nieces and nephews over the past 20 years, computer games of football take a lot of skill and practice, and the new generation of games has to be learned properly before you can approach anything like a reasonable standard of play.  Pass placement, weighting, control, first touch, off the ball movement - all are in the hands of the FIFA gamer.  And interestingly, I would argue a young player could learn a lot about how professionals pass and move and make runs off the ball through playing FIFA much more than they would through Subbuteo.[/quote]

"The new generation of games has to be learned"- so that means spending even more time at the computer learning about something that is......on the computer.     I''m not going to deny that there are good things about  computer games, just that the overall effect of doing everything on a computer can take more time away from what could be achieved away from the computer - and in some cases lead to an unhealthy reliance on them.  If people can''t get about so much, computers can be a great way of  interacting, playing and learning.   My concern would be for younger, healthy people who spend 16 hours  a day looking at a screen of some kind, whether its   playing games, texting, buying, selling, watching tv, homework, research, studying, writing letters, banking, filming, facebooking...........

I''ve never got into computer games, though I have tried, so for me it would be Subbuteo.........Foggo, Keelan, Holt, RVW...........

[/quote]I think that''s fair enough, but I would argue you''re not going to get fit or healthy playing Subbuteo either.  Or achieve much, other than finishing a game of Subbuteo.

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[quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"]I can safely say, from the many beatings at the hands of my nieces and nephews over the past 20 years, computer games of football take a lot of skill and practice, and the new generation of games has to be learned properly before you can approach anything like a reasonable standard of play.  Pass placement, weighting, control, first touch, off the ball movement - all are in the hands of the FIFA gamer.  And interestingly, I would argue a young player could learn a lot about how professionals pass and move and make runs off the ball through playing FIFA much more than they would through Subbuteo.[/quote]"The new generation of games has to be learned"- so that means spending even more time at the computer learning about something that is......on the computer.     I''m not going to deny that there are good things about  computer games, just that the overall effect of doing everything on a computer can take more time away from what could be achieved away from the computer - and in some cases lead to an unhealthy reliance on them.  If people can''t get about so much, computers can be a great way of  interacting, playing and learning.   My concern would be for younger, healthy people who spend 16 hours  a day looking at a screen of some kind, whether its   playing games, texting, buying, selling, watching tv, homework, research, studying, writing letters, banking, filming, facebooking...........[/quote]I think that''s fair enough, but I would argue you''re not going to get fit or healthy playing Subbuteo either.  Or achieve much, other than finishing a game of Subbuteo.[/quote]True. But it is a game and its not on the computer. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="Jan van Chopsburg"]I can safely say, from the many beatings at the hands of my nieces and nephews over the past 20 years, computer games of football take a lot of skill and practice, and the new generation of games has to be learned properly before you can approach anything like a reasonable standard of play.  Pass placement, weighting, control, first touch, off the ball movement - all are in the hands of the FIFA gamer.  And interestingly, I would argue a young player could learn a lot about how professionals pass and move and make runs off the ball through playing FIFA much more than they would through Subbuteo.[/quote]"The new generation of games has to be learned"- so that means spending even more time at the computer learning about something that is......on the computer.     I''m not going to deny that there are good things about  computer games, just that the overall effect of doing everything on a computer can take more time away from what could be achieved away from the computer - and in some cases lead to an unhealthy reliance on them.  If people can''t get about so much, computers can be a great way of  interacting, playing and learning.   My concern would be for younger, healthy people who spend 16 hours  a day looking at a screen of some kind, whether its   playing games, texting, buying, selling, watching tv, homework, research, studying, writing letters, banking, filming, facebooking...........[/quote]I think that''s fair enough, but I would argue you''re not going to get fit or healthy playing Subbuteo either.  Or achieve much, other than finishing a game of Subbuteo.[/quote]True. But it is a game and its not on the computer.  [/quote]I don''t see computers as a negative - I see them as enabling.  We shouldn''t kid ourselves that before computers were ubiquitous, people spent their time in healthy and wholesome ways and therefore it is computers that have changed people''s behaviour.  Online connections and connectivity is a part of society now.  Of course, and as you have experienced, the faceless and impersonal aspects of some of it can lead to meanings being misconstrued and people saying things they wouldn''t say to people''s faces.  But I''m sure the same was true of the telephone, and the newspaper, when they first became commonplace.Basically, I''m saying that playing FIFA online with a friend is no better or worse than playing Subbuteo in your garage with a friend all those years ago.  It''s just the medium that has changed.

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Championship manager 01-02, by far the greatest football game ever made. Also have great memories of emlyn hughes soccer on the c64 and kick off 2 on the amiga and the early pro evo soccers on the ps2. All were better than the modern equivalents.

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I used to have the Norwich Subbuteo team in the Admiral kit style - except with those small figures it was just a green stripe down the arm - on some it didn''t look too dissimilar to the current strip.  I had quite a few teams as well as some of the stands, floodlights etc. Anyway used to play a league at school at lunchtimes which I never won.  Stopped playing when I got into music!  Now I lose all the time to my 9yo son at FIFA.  Ridiculous game.....

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I''m sorry but your all wrong , sensible world of soccer on the amiga is the greatest game ever made !

I actually learnt quite a lot about world football from that game as it had almost every player from every league in the world on it .

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In the beginning you pretended the players were Norwich but assumed they were actually Brazil. Next sentence, they have Norwich player names on them. Are you sure you''re not looking back on your wonder years with rose-tinted glasses?

Playing online soccer is not without skill.

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Sensible world of soccer was good but had the major flaw of always being able to score from curling a shot from the angle on the edge of the area.

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[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]When I saw the title I thought that this was going to be an entirely different thread. I''m not sure I even understand LDC''s point but I thought he was going to address the callous and disgusting nature of some fans.

I thought he would be having a go at the "get rid" brigade who regard players as toys or characters in a computer game to be thrown away when you are bored or fed up. I''m old school and proud of it. I wouldn''t treat our club with any less respect than the people I employ. That''s the key word "people". Our players are real. They are people with feelings, faults, pride and dignity as much as any poster on here.

To dismiss the efforts of someone who has played here and given his best with phrases like "Simple. Not good enough. Get rid" is pathetic and disrespectful.

More tellingly perhaps, they are men with wives, homes, children and families. They can''t just move their whole lives because some clowns think they are in a computer game and people can adjust their lives to suit.

Of course, football is a harsh and ruthless employer. Players are sold, sacked or have their careers terminated when a contract comes to an end. You would need a heart of stone or no heart at all not to feel sympathy for Simeon. It''s tough, it''s football. Thanks for all you''ve done and good luck.

But "get rid"? Perhaps your bosses should decide to get rid of you. Perhaps then you''d know the difference between the reality of having a home and family and losing your job. Perhaps you''d know the difficulty of having to move to another region to get work.

Perhaps you could leave the virtual world and rejoin this one.[/quote]This!I''m not sure that the thought being explored in this post has anything to do with the title. Maybe the title should be, ''Do you prefer pretending to be a subbuteo player/manager, or a computer game player/manger?". Neither of which have anything to do with real soccer players living real lives, and everything to do with the imaginations of those playing the games.

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For JF: Anyone who mentions Kick Off (1 or 2) on the Amiga gets my respect.

Sensible Soccer was great, but not as good KO, because of some of the programmers being NCFC fans.

Do wonder if JF is someone I know in the Barclay?

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