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Row D Seat 7

Do we deserve to go down?

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Wigan was a crunch game. As always, we went for a point. We got what we deserved and came away with nothing.

We have dropped so many points this season due to negative tactics:

QPR at home, West Ham at home, Reading away, Newcastle at home, QPR away, Fulham home, Southampton home, Wigan away.

The above games were winnable. 24 points available. We achieved 7 points from these games.

In my opinion, we''ve spent £8.5m on a striker a season too late. We tried the cheap option last summer with our main striker signing being Harry Kane, a Spurs reserve who''d never scored a Premiership goal (and still hasn''t) - it didn''t work.

I like Kamara as a person but don''t think he''s the goalscorer we all hoped for, neither is Becchio. We are struggling big time and out of Villa, Wigan, Sunderland, Norwich, Southampton and Stoke I think we are the team looking likely to pick up less points. Some of the others may have tougher games to play but we struggle to get maximum points from winnable games.

The above teams are capable of winning away and picking up maximum points at home. We struggle to do either of those at the moment and I believe that we will be relegated if the negative tactics and mindset of going into games wanting a point continues.

My bottom three:

Norwich

QPR

Reading

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I also get tired of Hughton making changes after we go a goal down, like he did on Saturday.

"Oh no, Wigan have scored. Better makes a change. Didn''t expect this. Thought we''d get a point."

No shots on target AT WIGAN. Only Prem side not to score this season AT WIGAN.

Just because we are in the Premiership, why should we be happy with that?!

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We certainly have to show more to survive. The defence has been generally sound, and might even have got away with a point on Saturday, apart the slip and keeper error which led to the only goal. Until we ran out of steam we looked good, until the final third.

 

We have to face the fact that we are not creating good chances, and of the few we do create not many result in an attempt at goal. We must have one of the weakest strike forces in the division, and one of the worst midfields.

 

Can we improve and deserve to stay up? I think so. Earlier in the season goals were coming from virtually every player in the side, which covered up the striker limitations. This source seems to have dried up, apart from Wes. It could be reversed.  I hope that the return of Pilks will make a difference, both in shooting and in creating chances, but you can''t rely on one man. They all have to step up. Otherwise, I fear that we are doomed.

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I''m sorry but Hughton''s first job is to keep us in the Prem, not entertain you.

I''m not saying that''s a fantastic perspective upon things but it''s the reality. His livelihood and the clubs well-being relies upon us staying in the Premier League this season. As things stand, we are doing that.

I fully concur that some of the games have been mind-numbingly dull and boring - but it a few of them games we''ve picked up points which could well be vital.

Hughton''s past suggest he certainly is capable of managing a free-scoring yet well organised side - i can hardly blame him from eering on the side of caution this season, especially when he probably has McNally breathing down his ear reminding him our Prem status is VITAL.

With all the dross we put up with for years pre Lambert, it shows how impatient some of you lot are. Not willing to accept a half season of SOME poor games for the premier league future of this club.

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[quote user="Salopian"]

We certainly have to show more to survive. The defence has been generally sound, and might even have got away with a point on Saturday, apart the slip and keeper error which led to the only goal. Until we ran out of steam we looked good, until the final third.   We have to face the fact that we are not creating good chances, and of the few we do create not many result in an attempt at goal. We must have one of the weakest strike forces in the division, and one of the worst midfields.  Can we improve and deserve to stay up? I think so. Earlier in the season goals were coming from virtually every player in the side, which covered up the striker limitations. This source seems to have dried up, apart from Wes. It could be reversed.  I hope that the return of Pilks will make a difference, both in shooting and in creating chances, but you can''t rely on one man. They all have to step up. Otherwise, I fear that we are doomed.

[/quote]

There is some truth in your post.   However, imo, the strike force is good.  The simple fact is that the team do not get a decent final ball in often enough or quick enough.  The midfield looks good passing it around, but they need to get the ball in early.  Both Wes and Snod have not been doing it enough, both dithering around.    I sometimes think they are trying to be too clever when a simple ball in to the box could pay dividends.   All the skill in the world is pointless unless there is an end product.   As you say, they need to step it up.

As for the OP, its simple, if we stay up we deserve to stay up, if we go down we deserve to go down.   Will we stay up? Imo, yes, but there is everything to play for and it won''t be easy.

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''Do we deserve to go down?''Certainly not, mainly because there are at least three teams in this division who are worse than us, not because we have been pulling up any trees or playing fantastic football.Did you actually watch the Wigan game? They were absolute garbage and if we had anybody who could hit the ball in the right direction we would have won by a mile.Wigan will struggle to get any more points, as will Sunderland.

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[quote user="hogesar"]I''m sorry but Hughton''s first job is to keep us in the Prem, not entertain you. I''m not saying that''s a fantastic perspective upon things but it''s the reality. His livelihood and the clubs well-being relies upon us staying in the Premier League this season. As things stand, we are doing that. I fully concur that some of the games have been mind-numbingly dull and boring - but it a few of them games we''ve picked up points which could well be vital. Hughton''s past suggest he certainly is capable of managing a free-scoring yet well organised side - i can hardly blame him from eering on the side of caution this season, especially when he probably has McNally breathing down his ear reminding him our Prem status is VITAL. With all the dross we put up with for years pre Lambert, it shows how impatient some of you lot are. Not willing to accept a half season of SOME poor games for the premier league future of this club.[/quote]

What he said. [Y]

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Negative at Wigan?

That''s a lazy assumption to make imho, but if you watched that game properly (and I was there) then you will see that we DID attack on numerous occasions and got into some very good promising positions down the channels throughout the game.

Unfortunately, this was where our main issues lie and were certainly evident at the DW on Saturday, as a combination of the following:

- poor final ball from wide
- poor decision making
- lack of runs from strikers/opposite wide player/on-running attacking midfielder to create their own space

Yes, the crossing was, and has been for sometime, been very poor.  But let''s not forget the onus on those in the box (and not just the striker(s) alone) to work hard to create their own space.  This is not Sunday league football and you cannot get away in the PL by standing prone at the far post with your hand in the air.  Unfortunately I see this all to often.  Where is the quick runs to fool a defender, to try and get in front of them at the last split second?  Where is the near post run??

For me, Saturday was nothing to do with negativity and all to do with incorrect decision making and lack of quality on the final 3rd.  

I''m not bothered how boring this season will be.  Let''s be honest, its not going to improve now, so we need to ''take one for the team'', cheer the lads on to grind out the results needed to stay in the league, and THEN, allow Hughton the full Summer to properly seek the balance required in our squad.

Come OCtober/November, if there are minimal signs of improvement, then that will be the time to ask serious question, I completely agree.  Before then, we need to knuckle down as  fans an accept the immediate goal for us.  Sometimes life is a rough ride, and we just need to stick together to help weather this particular storm!! 

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We need to make every game like a cup final, that will not happen if complacent fans like those who regularly post here perpetuate the myth that all is well and the points will come. The way we are playing at the moment that is not the case. We need a big vocal support for the team for the whole of the Swansea game, not complacent fans sitting there just expecting it to happen, cos it won''t!

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Well said Flecky,

I was also at the game on Saturday, and I have to say that we bossed the first half completely. We kept getting in behind down the channels but the final ball let us down. To simply say that we lost the game through being negative is total nonsense - the second half was more even but in no way were we hanging on. On balance of play we were well in the game but were just undone by one moment - a fine strike and perhaps slightly suspect keeping.

I''ve seen a few NCFC teams get relegated and you see certain things that make you realise you are in trouble. I just don''t see that when I watch this NCFC team play. We are struggling for goals of course but I still think we look 100% committed, well organised and most importantly we look like we are well in games most of the time - that will yield points from the remaining home games.

I still think we will end up with over 40 points.

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[quote user="Salopian"]

We certainly have to show more to survive. The defence has been generally sound, and might even have got away with a point on Saturday, apart the slip and keeper error which led to the only goal. Until we ran out of steam we looked good, until the final third.

 

We have to face the fact that we are not creating good chances, and of the few we do create not many result in an attempt at goal. We must have one of the weakest strike forces in the division, and one of the worst midfields.

 

Can we improve and deserve to stay up? I think so. Earlier in the season goals were coming from virtually every player in the side, which covered up the striker limitations. This source seems to have dried up, apart from Wes. It could be reversed.  I hope that the return of Pilks will make a difference, both in shooting and in creating chances, but you can''t rely on one man. They all have to step up. Otherwise, I fear that we are doomed.

[/quote]It was Hoolahan losing the ball which was the problem.

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[quote user="Row D Seat 7"]Wigan was a crunch game......[/quote][quote user="Vanwink"]We need to make every game like a cup final.....[/quote]Really people? Really??!Here is our home form;P 15 W6 D6 L3.If we win 1 drew 2 and lose 1 of our remaining home games, we stay up. (i.e. maintain home form)Every game is NOT a cup final. We''re in 14th, with good home form and a decent home fixture list remaining. Wigan was NOT a crunch game. We were in 12th, 7 above the drop.If we end up in the positions of Wigan, Villa or with a run in like Sunderland, then we can start talking about crunch games and cup finals.

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flecky, I didn''t see the game but if we are playing one up front for 85 minutes and the midfielders are not making runs forward to provide a second (or only?) target in the box then is that attacking?

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[quote user="flecky76"]


I''m not bothered how boring this season will be.  Let''s be honest, its not going to improve now, so we need to ''take one for the team'', cheer the lads on to grind out the results needed to stay in the league, and THEN, allow Hughton the full Summer to properly seek the balance required in our squad.

Come OCtober/November, if there are minimal signs of improvement, then that will be the time to ask serious question, I completely agree.  Before then, we need to knuckle down as  fans an accept the immediate goal for us.  Sometimes life is a rough ride, and we just need to stick together to help weather this particular storm!! 

[/quote]

I don''t think you''d be hearing many complaints over the style of football we''re playing if it was producing results. The fact is however, that we have one slightly fortunate victory to show for the last 14 games and we''ve scored just 5 league goals since the turn of the year.

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[quote user="The ghost of Michael Theoklitos"][quote user="Row D Seat 7"]Wigan was a crunch game......[/quote][quote user="Vanwink"]We need to make every game like a cup final.....[/quote]Really people? Really??!Here is our home form;P 15 W6 D6 L3.If we win 1 drew 2 and lose 1 of our remaining home games, we stay up. (i.e. maintain home form)Every game is NOT a cup final. We''re in 14th, with good home form and a decent home fixture list remaining. Wigan was NOT a crunch game. We were in 12th, 7 above the drop.If we end up in the positions of Wigan, Villa or with a run in like Sunderland, then we can start talking about crunch games and cup finals.[/quote]

We have score 3 goals at Home Since Christmas. I rest my case!!!!

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flecky, I didn''t see the game but if we are playing one up front for 85 minutes and the midfielders are not making runs forward to provide a second (or only?) target in the box then is that attacking?

I know people like to throw the ''one up front'' thing at Hughton. But let''s be fair, Wes is basically playing up front as well, he plays just off the striker because that''s where he''s most effective. It''s exactly the same position as Teddy Sheringham used to play, and no one would say that he''s not a forward.

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Beefy, I understand that argument but if we are regarding Hoolahan as at least half a striker, then so is the defence, and he is going to be marked. Whereas someone coming through unexpectedly from midfield has a chance of finding space in the box. I think it is stretching it to regard up as attacking much if neither central midfielder is providing that kind of threat.---

PS. Am I alone in suddenly not being able to quote?

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We do not deserve to go down - as mentioned, there are more than 2 teams in this division worse than us. We don''t concede many goals of late, but I do admit that the thought process needs a bit of a tweak from "If you don''t concede you can''t lose" to "If you don''t score you can''t win".

We have had some chances, I feel Snodgrass needs to hit the ball after his first touch and not take the second touch which is allowing defenders time, and I feel we need 2 up front on the perceived "winnable" games - the defence is coping well, so with Pilks & Snodgrass feeding 2 strikers we may well get the elusive goals which can turn a draw (or even single goal defeat) into a win.

I don''t think we will go down, but it is a bit squeaky-bum time, so I would rather see us play offensively and going for the 3 points than sit back hoping we have enough defence to secure a draw.

In my opinion we need to get at Swansea and not sit back allowing them to come on to us, that could be fateful, and the same goes for Arsenal - we are not expecting a win there, so go for it and try the attacking formation.

We are where we are with the resources we have - providing we stay up (and I think we will), we have something to look forward to, and with RVW I think the stall has been set that we are prepared to invest.

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No.Many clubs that go down have been in decline for a while. Financially we are on the up and will given the opportunity get much stronger next season.  That said the table never lies and any side that gets relegated deserves to go down

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@Orford65

You asked if I watched the Wigan game.

I did.

You said "Wigan were poor. If we''d have hit the ball in the right direction, we''d have won by a mile".

We lost 1-0. Wigan may have been poor but they got 3 points on Saturday. We got 0.

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The trouble is that when we''ve done what most people on here suggest and plonk in another striker instead of Wes to make a bona-fide 4-4-2, we''ve been pretty awful. The first 6 or 7 games of the season and the recent games v Everton and Southampton were just as poor a spectacle. Indeed, I thought we were very lucky to beat Everton, the substitution of Kamara being a key move for which Hughton has got no credit whatsoever. But my point being that 4-4-2 isn''t necessarily the answer. 4-4-1-1 has got us most of our points this season.

 

It''s more about the personnel available. Wes makes things happen, especially in the home games, that is why most people want to see him on the pitch. Going forward I think we have to look for a better attacking midfield option than we have in Jonno, Tettey, Howson - that''s the area where we need that greater creativity, as well as a winger with genuine pace.

 

But we ain''t going to see that this season and, for me, playing the current system is still the best way to go about getting to 40pts. As another poster has said, we are unbeaten at home this year and perhaps 1 win and 3 draws or even 1 win, 2 draws and a loss will surely be enough.

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I think 39 points will keep us up. Which means we need 5 more points. Apart from Reading at home, I just don''t know when/where we will get those points.

Like someone else said, if we''re relegated, we deserve to be. Nobody is relegated unfairly over a 38 game season. If we are not safe by the time we visit Man City on the last day, we may as well save on petrol and not bother making the trip.

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Well now RowD your final post makes absolute sense to me. If we finish in the bottom three we deserve to be relegated. But that''s not what you asked in the op. If I'',m not mistaken you were asking if we already deserve to be relegated. You obviously think we do and I can''t get my head around that thinking. You see right now I think we deserve to be 12th. I think we''ve deserved every point we''ve won. Do you not think we deserve to be 12th? I guess all that matters about that is that if we finish 12th we''ll be paid out for that position. Even though you probably think that other sides would be more deserving of the dosh.

 

 

 

 

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Is it??? LOL

 

It''s your thread buddy! Do you think we already deserve to go down? And if so who do you think deserves to stay up in our place?

 

 

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Weve sleep walked ourselves into this. Some people have been really happy that were going for a point, However the more wiser amongst us have seen that this would inevitably lead us into trouble. Theres been so many games this season that having an attacking approach would definitely of got us 3 points. This is how i see it 3 games under HUGHTON is him wanting three points at best we''ll get 2 HOWEVER 3 games under an attacking manager who goes for it would at least get 1 win and two losses maybe even 1 win 1 draw say either way thats 3 or 4 points. ATTACKING FOOTBALL IS THE WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[quote user="Aces High"]Weve sleep walked ourselves into this. Some people have been really happy that were going for a point, However the more wiser amongst us have seen that this would inevitably lead us into trouble. Theres been so many games this season that having an attacking approach would definitely of got us 3 points. This is how i see it 3 games under HUGHTON is him wanting three points at best we''ll get 2 HOWEVER 3 games under an attacking manager who goes for it would at least get 1 win and two losses maybe even 1 win 1 draw say either way thats 3 or 4 points. ATTACKING FOOTBALL IS THE WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]

Please point me to the ''more wiser'' bit. I''ve read your post 3 times and I still can''t find it.

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Who deserves to stay up in our place?

 

Villa - They have strikers that have pace and actually strike.

 

Sunderland and Reading - Brave boardrooms that have made tough decisions and employed young and dynamic managers

 

Southampton - Look how they tore apart Chelsea and then look how Chelsea beat Man U

 

QPR - Investment in players, they deserve to be playing at the highest level and Redknapp is too good a manager to be languishing in the Championship

 

Newcastle - Too big to go down

 

Wigan - Beat us, ergo, better than us so deserve to stay up ahead of us.

 

How we''ve got ANY points at all is a miracle, the buck stops at the top. Hughton has to carry the can to a certain extent but he is just an employee. Who employed the employee?

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